Posted on 09/24/2012 1:17:52 PM PDT by Dr. Thorne
PARIS (Reuters)- Germany's Roman Catholic bishops have decreed that people who opt out of a "church tax" should not be given sacraments and religious burials, getting tougher on worshippers who choose not to pay.
Alarmed by a wave of dissenting Catholics quitting the faith, the bishops issued a decree on Thursday declaring such defection "a serious lapse" and listed a wide range of church activities from which they must be excluded.
(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...
First of all, many parishes are plenty busy - especially in the South. A pastor has only so many hours in the day.
And again, when people want to use a church for a wedding or a funeral, it costs money. In the USA, people write a donation check to cover the costs - but many Germans feel entitled.
I don’t know how a Priest can determine with certainty whether a baptized Catholic is in danger of dying from illness, or whether he should even be trying to do so, over taxes.
I repeat: is he in a hospital? 99% of in extremis cases are lying in a hospital bed, the other 1% are bleeding out at accident scenes.
No one is pulling a card in those situations.
The Catholic church IS withholding confession according to the reports, it is their intent to withhold confession.
In the highly unlikely scenario that someone walks in and says: "Hey, Father. My name is Josef _______ and I have zero intention of supporting the Church in any way, but I'm kind of in the mood for confession" - this might occasion enforcement, but that scenario accounts for about 0.0% of confessions I've ever heard of.
The Church does not collect taxes. The state does. The Church has the option of collecting taxes, but they decline.
I wouldn’t contribute either if I knew that my tax dollars were going to fund abortion services in Germany.
Every dollar of church tax collected is one dollar being diverted away from abortion and toward pro-life advocacy.
You have it exactly backward.
You are asking me to prove a negative, in so many words. Sorry.
And, you know, there are plenty of subtle ways of turning non-payors aside.
Ways that would attract no negative publicity but have the same effect.
So there is no way of telling which church is doing what, absent a public policy statement.
The Catholic church says it is about the tax, not that they are too busy to give communion, or hear confession.
I repeat, the Catholic church says that they are going to withhold “”anointing of the sick – unless the patient’s life is in danger””, I don’t know how a Priest can tell when someone might suddenly die from their illness, or why he would be trying to, just to deny it from non-paying Catholics.
Repeatedly denying the Catholic church’s officially announced policy, is not convincing, the defense that non of this is happening anyway, is to deny the church’s adopting of the policy, and their intent.
The Catholic church is doing what it can to deny confession to the non-tax payer Catholics, it is their policy, and their intent, they must have some method of enforcing this decision and newly adopted policy.
LOL, OK, this is religion and I can’t say what I really think of this exchange and the way it keeps weaving around.
I am amazed at times to learn that it isn’t just Mormons, that deal with truth like well trained Mormons though.
Christians have a moral obligation to support their pastors (1 Cor 9:14, 1 Tim 5:17-18). Likewise, pastors have an especial responsibility to minister to those who are believers (Galatians 6:10).
Someone who will not even check off a box indicating that he supports the Church is telling his pastor something about which household he belongs to.
It is a given in Germany that the ratio of Catholics to clergy, and the demand on the clergy's time and budgets, is already a strain. It does not need to be spelled out in the policy.
I repeat, the Catholic church says that they are going to withhold “”anointing of the sick – unless the patient’s life is in danger””, I don’t know how a Priest can tell when someone might suddenly die from their illness, or why he would be trying to, just to deny it from non-paying Catholics.
Again, the exception is in extremis - which covers pretty much every single case of anointing of the sick I've ever heard of.
People do not get anointed when they have a cold.
Repeatedly denying the Catholic church’s officially announced policy, is not convincing, the defense that non of this is happening anyway, is to deny the church’s adopting of the policy, and their intent.
I am denying your mischaracterization. The policy is in place and it is a good policy. The policy you are decrying is a straw man.
The Catholic church is doing what it can to deny confession to the non-tax payer Catholics, it is their policy, and their intent, they must have some method of enforcing this decision and newly adopted policy.
Why "must" they have some method of enforcement? Does the Church have a method of enforcement against artificial birth control? Against pre-marital intercourse? The doctrine is against those things, the policy is against those things, but there is no practical method of enforcement other than the stirrings of conscience.
Which is exactly what this policy here is saying: if you want the Church to serve you and you are not willing to even do the bare minimum to contribute, it is time to examine your priorities.
I see. From your perspective it's someone else who is doing the weaving.
I am amazed at times to learn that it isn’t just Mormons, that deal with truth like well trained Mormons though.
The truth exists in the real world, not in some fantasy realm where priests are apparently preparing to go to medical school in order to evaluate whether or not communicands are dying or no.
Common sense, as always, applies.
Yes.
This is true.—”So it does only apply to Catholic churches then, the Christian, non-Catholic churches will still interact with non-payers of the tax.”
And, it it true that the Catholic church is withholding confession from non-taxpayers.
There is no weaving from my end.
“Every dollar of church tax collected is one dollar being diverted away from abortion and toward pro-life advocacy.”
If that were so - the Church would not be acting as a tax collector for the state.
1) They Lied on an official document.
2)They not only lied on an official document, they also lied about their status as Catholic Christians.
3)They not only lied about being Catholic, they lied about it in order escape support for their Church.
There's something wrong here.
Canon Law 222 §1. Christ's faithful have the obligation to provide for the needs of the Church, so that the Church has available to it those things which are necessary for divine worship, for apostolic and charitable work and for the worthy support of its ministers.
From Acts 5:1-5
But a man named Ananias with his wife Sapphira sold a piece of property, and with his wife's knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. (Acts (RSV) 5)
“Christians have a moral obligation to support their pastors. Likewise, pastors have an especial responsibility to minister to those who are believers.”
And such support is voluntarily. The validity of the sacraments does not hinge on whether someone pays into the collection plate prior. This is Simony.
Does the state give one the option of refusing to pay taxes?
This is not the same thing. Essentially the state is saying, pay us or pay them. This is coerced - whereas the biblical example refers to a promise made from a free offering.
Jesus did not force Ananias to make his donation, nor did he force Ananias to pay it all. Ananias offered all of it (of his own free will), and then broke his own promise.
In case you missed the previous thread...PROTESTANTS also pay Church taxes in Germany.
You wrote:
“I don’t know how a Priest can determine with certainty whether a baptized Catholic is in danger of dying from illness, or whether he should even be trying to do so, over taxes.”
Thankfully, priests are better trained and more knowledgeable than you apparently are.
Really .6 Billion dollars? Wouldn’t the money be better spent helping people in their area?
Our Church does outreach to other countries and I think it’s great they bring the Gospel but I believe in helping our area.
Neither of your posts to me made sense, we know that the taxes are collected for Protestant churches also, the thread is about the Catholic church’s religious actions taken against non-compliant Catholics, such as refusing them confession.
As far as humans knowing life and death with certainty when someone is ill, and Priests, I have know a lot of Priests, and that is why I made my statement, “I don’t know how a Priest can determine with certainty whether a baptized Catholic is in danger of dying from illness, or whether he should even be trying to do so, over taxes.”
Rather than just insult me, explain it to me.
Ignorance still abounds.
They lie about it to the government tax collector, Christians lying to the state, all over the world for various reasons, from China to Afghanistan, might be a little different discussion.
You wrote:
“Rather than just insult me, explain it to me.”
To explain it to you would be to acknowledge something that others might finding insulting to them if it were directed to them. Quite frankly, it isn’t hard to tell when someone is “in danger of dying from illness”.
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