“Is the God of Calvinism a Moral Monster?” [Calvinist Caucus]

" In and of ourselves we cannot please God, but we have placed our faith in One who does "

AMEN ! and that would be the person of Jesus Christ ( His Greek name.... His Hebrew name is ... Yeshua ).

Moreover ?
Yeshua is the ONLY ONE .. ( Anointed one, that's where the Greeks get the word , CHRIST ) .. who could have atoned for our sins.

and yet ?

much more,

moreover ?

He was the ONLY ONE who could have, and did keep God's Holy Law perfectly... completely ... in our stead.

So ?
As the bible says,

" So as He ( Jesus Christ ) is ?
so are we in this world. "

So as Jesus Christ is ( Yeshua ) at the right hand of the father, right now, so are we in this world, today.

You ? I ? other's ?

We stand, HOLY ( God's gift of holiness to us ).

We stand JUSTIFIED ( we stand justified before a Holy God, because it's God's gift of justification to us ).
We have been made righteous ( God's gift of Righteious, because Christ made us in right standing before a holy God ).
We stand ? as Christ is before the father, so are we in this world.
We stand ? as Christ has and did keep the whole holy law of God perfectly.. so we too,, have kept God's holy law perfect... in a legal sense, and standing sense before God.

So ? I would say to all the law pushers ? We ( those who are in Christ ) stand on a much higher standard then keeping the law, because we have already kept God's holy law perfectly, and redeemed by the Holy Blood of Christ Jesus.

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus... sorry Law pushers.. you can not condemn me.. no one can, or ever can condemn me...

Man has free will to do whatever he wants to do - but not what he OUGHT to do.

>is a God who only saves some of His children a moral monster?

First, Romans 1 answers this question. God has left a witness of Himself through creation so that all mankind is without excuse. Every year is an example of resurrection as plant life goes from death back to life.

Second, God has given man a conscious, so he knows right from wrong; knowing his own failures. Mankind should know it's need for the Savior from those failures, but denies and suppresses those thoughts continually. (also Romans 1).

Third, God has opened the door to Salvation to anyone who would believe, but none, on their own did (Psalm 14 and 53).:

2 The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.

3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

We are told to preach the gospel even though we know mankind is 'dead in tresspasses and Sin' (Ephesians, Colosians) Why? Because Christ is the good shepherd who leaves the 99 and goes after the one. It is God who takes away the heart of Stone and Replaces it with a heart of flesh to love him and regenerates the mind so it can comprehend Him and have faith. We have no idea who God may quickened and given 'ears to hear' and faith (Romans 12:3) to hear the blessed gospel message.

And of this He says in Romans 9:14:

"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

15 For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.'

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy."

It is not dependent on anything you have done or will do, It is just because God Loved folks like us, because He Loved us, because He loved us before we were even born.

God chose to take spiritually dead people, like us, and have compassion on them. For the rest, He leaves the witness of creation and conscious and an open door (repentance and believe upon Christ for Salvation), but as Psalm 14 and 53 says None took it by themselves and are therefore by default, Responsible for their own Sins.

It is God who has compassion and mercy on those whom He wills to. Some deny it still trying to leave man in control and the instrument of Salvation, but God does not allow this. He has compassion and mercy on those He whom He wills to. Thus it is to 'God Alone' who gets the glory. He is the good shepherd who DID go get folks like us Astray, Dead, and out on a limb. He is the one who DID pay, with His own blood, for His Children (not just a plan). He is the one who has done it all for folks like us (whether Calvinists or not) just out of His Sovereign compassion and mercy. To God alone be the Glory, for the great things He has DONE!

I can’t AMEN loud enough!

I agree with your entire comment, but “God chose to take spiritually dead people, like us, and have compassion on them” can’t be reiterated enough. Most within American evangelical circles do not fully understand that the Bible clearly teaches we are spiritually dead. They haven’t been taught the full meaning and implication of being dead in trespasses and sins.

Once the depravity of man is rightly understood, the rest of the five points fall into place. If someone doesn’t understand depravity, they can’t really understand the absolute necessity for salvation to be an act of His grace from beginning to end.

I agree with your entire comment, but “God chose to take spiritually dead people, like us, and have compassion on them” can’t be reiterated enough. Most within American evangelical circles do not fully understand that the Bible clearly teaches we are spiritually dead. They haven’t been taught the full meaning and implication of being dead in trespasses and sins.

Once the depravity of man is rightly understood, the rest of the five points fall into place. If someone doesn’t understand depravity, they can’t really understand the absolute necessity for salvation to be an act of His grace from beginning to end.

'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.'

I just wanted to thank you for the thorough response as well as for the relevant passages from God's Word. This is an interesting topic and it serves to reveal that some of the most intelligent (and well-read) people in the world congregate right here on Free Republic.

To God alone be the Glory, for the great things He has DONE!

Amen to the 32nd power (exponentially speaking).

Amen this loud.

The Bible, not any preacher, God's very own word tells us that for those who try to earn their salvation by works i.e. trying to keep the Law ?

Well then, they have to keep ALL the law.

Yup, they have to keep every jot and letter of the law perfectly and if they break even the smallest part of the law ?

They break the whole law.

Therefore ?

They are the true law breakers.

I didn't say that, the bible tells us that, God's very own work.

Salvation is a free gift bestowed upon us from God himself.
Of course ? the law pushers ( Salvation by works ) will manipulate their words and craft it in a way to get out of that one.

The bible, not any preacher, God's word tells us that no man is made justified in God's sight by keeping the law.

But those who are already in Christ ?
They have already, yes, ALREADY kept the law perfectly in God's sight.
As far as God see's them ?
Legally ?
Positionally ?
Judicially ?
They have already kept the law perfectly since they have placed their trust, hope, faith, lives in the only one who can can could have saved them, Jesus Christ our savior,

YESHUA ! When God says Yes.

Can't be IN CHRIST if your trusting in keeping the law for your salvation ( that's what the bible talks about " being in the flesh, your own self human efforts. )

Can't be IN CHRIST when your in the flesh, i.e. trying to earn it in your own efforts, your own power.

Either your trusting in Christ's redemptive work on the cross, his atoning blood sacrifice, his perfect life, and his keeping the law perfectly.

OR ?

You are trusting in your own power ?
Your own efforts ?
Your own reliance in keeping the law ? ( and you HAVE TO keep ALL the law , every jot and letter of the law perfectly until Christ returns )...( for there is no more blood sacrifice, no more bulls and goats, or even Christ's blood can atone for your sins ( Hebrews chapter 10 ) unless ? you repent, turn from your ways, and turn to Christ alone ).

You can't have it both ways.
IF ? your trusting in your own works, keeping the law, then ?
Your NOT IN CHRIST alone.

THEREFORE THERE IS NOW NO CONDEMNATION FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST JESUS, who walk NOT after the flesh, but, who walk after the spirit.
Yes, read it there, in Romans... Paul says, that the LAW was weak because of the flesh, i.e. HUMAN EFFORT.

But ? if your are saved by Grace through faith alone ? and trusting in what Christ has done ? then your in CHRIST.

People would not need a savoir if they could save themselves.

Have to repeat this for it to sink in some people's minds.

People would not need a savoir if they could save themselves.
People would not need a savoir if they could save themselves.
People would not need a savoir if they could save themselves.

The Arminians think and believe that they had a part in their salvation.... nope, sorry, they did not, that is ? IF they are actually saved, since the bible tells us, that no man is made justified in God's sight by keeping the law.

If you think your saved by keeping the law ? you are not saved.
For it is by GRACE THROUGH FAITH that we are saved, and not of your selves, lest any man should boast.

The law keepers ? they boast about keeping the law, but ? are they really ?
Perhaps ? they are the worst law breakers of them all when they point their fingers at others and condemn others while are the same time hide their own sins ?
The " Man's Free Will " argument ?

Yes, Man kind did have " Free Will " at one time... the problem is ?
Man kind ( Adam and Eve ) gave up that sovereignty to rule this world, man gave up their free will.

Man HAD a free will before the fall, and now ever since Adam and Eve fell, all man kind has been born into sin and into a fallen state.

There is no inherent " Goodness " in the heart of men, no, even the bible, God's word tells us, that there is none that do good, none, that seek God in their own power.

IF ? there is any inherent " Goodness " in any man ? that man, woman, person got it from God.

God can say and do what ever he wants because he owns the microphone ( i.e. Roland Reagan's " I paid for this microphone " .)

God created the whole universe, and man, and God can say and do what ever he wants.

God is THE superior sovereign being.

This stupid argument we hear from the other side:

" well ? God didn't create us as robots " ....

Well, that's just plain stupid.

That's the most stupid statement I ever heard of.

Guess what ?

Robots were not invented by man until the later part of the 20th century.. so what did those during the middle ages say ?

God created us to have fellowship with him, and ? God created us with inherent attributes that we got from God since we were created in God's image and likeness.

Do you laugh ?
I do believe God laughs and has a sense of humor.

Do we grieve ?
I do believe that God grieves.

Do we delight in seeing something beautiful ?
I do believe that God also delights in seeing beautiful things.

Those who are IN CHRIST ?
We are his adopted sons and daughters.
We were placed into God's family by choice and adoption... and no, we are not robots.

Yes, man had a " FREE WILL " at one time,

but ?

Man lost it in the garden of Eden.

Sorry Free willers, it was lost.
Man kind was plundered into a fallen state of sin, and man kind has been in that state ever since.

So now who are the " ROBOTS " obeying every command if that statement can be or could be coined that way ?

Yes, who are the " ROBOTS " obeying the " COURSE OF THIS WORLD as Paul so elegantly stated.

No, on the contrary, it took a supreme sovereign being, GOD, who delivered us out of that fallen state, the plundered state of bondage of sin that we were in.

Can't serve 2 masters, either you love the one, or hate the other.
Man kind has not had " FREE WILL " since the fall in the garden of Eden.

“Is the God of Calvinism a Moral Monster?” [Calvinist Caucus]

No. Next question?

Seriously, I can think of a couple ways to go at this. 1)Creator-creature distinction. And, 2)noting that one of the usual examples, the conquest of Caanan, should serve as an illustration of, and warning of, the final judgement. Google on "intrusion ethics".

is a God who only saves some of His children a moral monster?

Note the assumption in the question.

I'll have to look this post, and thread, over in more detail later.

Soli Deo Gloria!

The problem we see today that has happened ? is that some have trampled on the US Constitution, or have disregard not only the letter of what the Constitution meant, but, the spirit of the US Constitution :

***** LIMITED GOVERNMENT HAS NO POWER OVER THE PEOPLE, BUT THE PEOPLE HAVE THE POWER OVER A LIMITED GOVERNMENT. *****

Same thing can be said about those who live by salvation by works, or keeping the law, power corrupts.

THE very reason why they preach, and push the law is that they don't want to lose the power over the people... if they can keep the people in bondage to the law,, then ? they can control the people.

In fact ? those who preach the law ? they point fingers ?
They are the worst offenders of breaking the law, but yet ?
They won't admit it to you or others, why ?

Because they want to keep it hidden so no one can see their hypocrisy.
Isn't that what Jesus Christ called the Sadducees and Pharisees ? White Washed Tombs.
Their pride and arrogance won't allow them to admit it.

Ohh yes, Pride is a sin, and they continue in it day and night.

Matthew 5:20

King James Version (KJV)

20 . For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. " ...
That means ?
What Jesus is saying ? is ?
As far as mankind is concerned, human efforts in keeping the law trying to get to heaven, the kingdom of GOD ?
It's IMPOSSIBLE to enter the kingdom of God, there had to be another way.

So for those who have not yet " GOT IT " or do not " GET IT " .... I will repeat this over and over again so it sinks in.

Matthew 5:20

King James Version (KJV)

20 . For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. " ...
That means ?
What Jesus is saying ? is ?
As far as mankind is concerned, human efforts in keeping the law trying to get to heaven, the kingdom of GOD ?
It's IMPOSSIBLE to enter the kingdom of God, there had to be another way.

Once again, I'll repeat it so it " SINKS IN " ....

Matthew 5:20

King James Version (KJV)

20 . For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. " ...
That means ?
What Jesus is saying ? is ?
As far as mankind is concerned, human efforts in keeping the law trying to get to heaven, the kingdom of GOD ?
It's IMPOSSIBLE to enter the kingdom of God, there had to be another way.

Law pushers ? still do not " GET IT " ?

I'll repeat it again....

Matthew 5:20

King James Version (KJV)

20 . For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. " ...
That means ?
What Jesus is saying ? is ?
As far as mankind is concerned, human efforts in keeping the law trying to get to heaven, the kingdom of GOD ?
It's IMPOSSIBLE to enter the kingdom of God, there had to be another way.

" is a God who only saves some of His children a moral monster? "

Simply put, how can the thing that was created question the morality of the supreme being and creator ?

There is no inherent " Goodness " in the heart of men, no, even the bible, God's word tells us, that there is none that do good, none, that seek God in their own power.

This is the REAL problem...people have been led to believe that "everyone has some good in them". If this is true, then the logic goes that we only need a little nudging to be perfect, or at least "good enough" to go to heaven. But we have already broken the law - we are ALL sinners - and the "wages of sin is death", not being good, going to church, giving money, feeding the poor, praying the right prayers, etc. NO. Only the shedding of blood makes atonement for the soul. ONLY through Christ's blood are we made as righteous as God - which is what we MUST be to enter heaven.

I wonder with sadness if the people who say they believe in Jesus and call themselves Christians - they say they believe He died on the cross for their sins, that Jesus opened the gates of heaven, BUT that they must "cooperate" with God's grace by doing good works in order to merit eternal life - are somehow by God's grace going to be saved? I have loved ones who do not believe we are saved by faith alone but they DO believe in Jesus and try to follow him. I grieve to think that they cannot be saved because they are not truly trusting in Christ alone to save them but who also rely on their own part in the deal.

I believe, of course, that God loves them far more than I do and He wants all to come to true repentance and be saved, but most people won't be. All I can do is trust the God who does what is right and just and continue to pray for people and speak the truth of the gospel. Only the Holy Spirit can open spiritual eyes to grasp the truth of what is said and written.

Those who trust in their " GOODNESS " or " GOOD WORKS " actually reject the blood atonement of Jesus Christ.

That's what the author of the book of Hebrews talks about in their sin of unbelief when:

Hebrews chapter 10 verse 26.

26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Of course ?

The law pushers, those who put their trust in their works for salvation will cry out and say:

" Gotcha " ... see ?
" if we continue to willfully sin AFTER we have received the truth ".

The thing is ?
What they don't understand, or want to deceive those who are weak in their faith is ?

That the book of Hebrews was written to Jewish Hebrews in the early church.

There was a group of " Judaisers " who were going around and their agenda was to try and get these people who may have listen to the Gospel preachers to go back and reject Christ and go back in to Judaism.

That's what the book of Hebrews was all about, showing these people who much greater Jesus Christ is to the old system of Judaism, and the old sacrificial system of killing animals for atonement.
How Jesus Christ was is greater than the high priest.

The writer of the book of Hebrews were writing to Jewish Hebrews who " Heard " the news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, who were enlighten and started to understand the good news, but, never have took the extra step of being saved.

Someone can " hear " about the gospel and about getting saved, but, that does not mean they are actually saved.

The writer of the book of Hebrews in previous chapters 3 and 4 in the book of Hebrews talks about how Israel refused to enter into the promised land, the rest that God had for them.
The writer of the book of Hebrews tells us that they didn't enter the promised land because of unbelief.... i.e. the SIN of unbelief, and yes, even the writer calls their unbelief .. SIN !
Those who trust in keeping the law is still in the sin of unbelief.

Hebrews chapter 3 verse 12.

12. See to it, brothers and sisters, ( that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart ) that turns away from the living God.

I didn't say it, GOD's word says it.

So God swore in his wrath that they would never enter into that rest, his rest.

The Sabbath was created for man, the man was never created for the Sabbath... Sorry law pushers, that's what Jesus Christ even said.

God gave us the Sabbath to rest.

The promised land was Israel's rest.... i.e. Sabbath.

Even some in the Christian community want us to obey the Sabbath rules,law,

but ? Jesus Christ is our promised land, our rest, our Sabbath.

God in that chapter called their sin of unbelief " Rebellion " for they harden their hearts because they did not believe.

That's what the writer of the book of Hebrews is referring to in the 10th chapter when he says " if we willfully continue to sin " ...

To willfully disobey, willfully reject the sacrificial atonement that God offers us in Christ and count it as a " COMMON " thing as bulls and goats.

Because ?

That is exactly what those who trust in their own efforts, their works, keeping the law are doing.
They count Jesus Christ's blood as nothing, as a common thing as the blood of bulls and goats, and they have to face a fearful expectation of the wrath of God for rejecting Christ's blood and putting it under their feet and offending the spirit of GRACE. i.e the Holy Spirit.

But ?
There is hope, the writer says " IF " we continue to willfully sin.
Now ? if they truly repent, yup, that's what repent really means, to have a change of mind, a change of attitude of trying to save your self in your own efforts, and turn to the one who can and will save you, Jesus Christ.

Remember ?
Most of your cults are inherently " WORKS BASED " man made religion to keep people under their control.

The only reason why they preach and harp about " WORKS " to get saved or stay saved is to keep you inline, under their thumb, to keep you in bondage under their authority, not God's authority.

You see ?
Those who are in Christ have already meet all God's holy requirements for salvation in the person of Jesus Christ.... we have a higher standard.

Paul said, had it not been for the law, he would have not known about sin, but, Jesus Christ has already delivered us from the bondage of sin and death... we live in the newness of life.

Paul also says that the law is the ministry of death, the letter of the law is the ministry of death that shows us our sins and condemns us.

But, Jesus Christ has come to save us, to set us free from the bondage of sin and death and give us a hope, a faith in him that we will live for ever with him.

The law was weak through the flesh, but, Jesus Christ came to keep the law perfectly, for he was the only one who could have kept it perfectly.

What the law pushers, works based salvation pushers tend to forget, or deliberately want people to forget ?

Yes, God gave the law, but, still set up a system for a blood atonement.... people were still in their sins.... year after year.

The law pushers ? works based salvation pushers ?

Since you put your trust more in your works and efforts, keeping the law than the once and for ALL blood atonement of Jesus Christ ?

Then ?

Were is your system of the sacrificial blood atonement of bulls and goats since you reject what Jesus Christ has done on the cross for your salvation ?

The blood sacrificial system of atonement was done away with 2000 years ago when the Romans sacked and burned Jerusalem.

SO ? how are your sins atoned for ?

YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS !
In trusting in yourselves, your works, your own righteousness, and still claim Jesus Christ's blood sacrifice... sorry, it does not work what way... either , or.

You can keep the law all you want, but still go to hell.
There was still a need for a blood atonement.

However ?
Jesus Christ himself said in Matthew chapter 5 verse 20.

That ?

That unless your righteousness exceeds even that of the Scribes and Phantasies, in no wise, or in no case can you enter into heaven.

Jesus was saying that humanly speaking ?
It was impossible for any man to make it into heaven on their own accord.

There had to be another way, the anointed one i.e. JESUS CHRIST to make a way for us.

Paul said that no man was ever made justified in the sight of God by the law.

Those who want to push " SALVATION BY WORKS " only want it so to keep people in bondage and under their control, and when people talk about Salvation by Grace alone through faith, they are afraid to lose their power over the people.

Those in power didn't want the bible to be read by the unwashed masses, they wanted to keep the unwashed masses in ignorance.... i.e. in darkness.

That's what John talks about in 1 John 1:

You see ?
The law pushers, the salvation by works pushers want you to believe that John is talking about sin, sin , sin, sin, sin, sin, sin.

Now ?
If you look at the verse carefully and read the letter of John carefully in it's proper context, John is writing to weak Christians in their faith.

There were Gnostics going around telling people that Jesus Christ did not come in actual flesh, but, he was just a spirit.
John was saying here:

6. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Yes, some will still try to convince you that John is talking about, sin, sin, sin, sin ....

That's strange ?

Isn't Jesus Christ the very one who came to save us from sin, sin, sin, sin ?

Besides ?

IF John is writing about sin, sin, sin, sin, sin, sin, sin, sin ?
Then ?
This verse would not make any sense, since ? John goes on and says :

In the 8th verse : 8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

So ?

The law pushers, the salvation by works pushers say, it means, sin, sin, sin, sin, but John goes on in the same chapter,: " IF ? we say we have no sin ? we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. "

WOW ! such a contradiction of the Law pushers and Salvation by works pushers... isn't it ?

So ? what is John talking about here ?

Turn off the light in your room right now and you will see what John is talking about, if you turn off the light ? what do you see ? OHH YES !! DARKNESS !!

John is talking about being ignorant, unbelief, rejection of the truth.
Grace and TRUTH came by Jesus Christ.

Can't be in the light, and reject Jesus Christ at the same time.
What John is talking about is being ignorant of the truth, ignorance of the Gospel, unbelief of Jesus Christ.
So ? if you reject Jesus Christ and follow your own way to GOD ? the truth is not in you... your still walking in darkness since Jesus Christ is the light of the world.

Those who want to push " SALVATION BY WORKS " only want it so to keep people in bondage and under their control, and when people talk about Salvation by Grace alone through faith, they are afraid to lose their power over the people.

I think that IS a big part of it. When some people hear that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works, one of the first things they say is, "Then you can just go out and live as you please and you can still be saved? Go rob banks and murder and rape and you will still go to heaven?". When I hear that, I realize that it is coming from someone who does not understand the concept of grace and who is mired STILL in the idea that we have to be good to go to heaven. They do not get it that NO ONE can be good enough to go to heaven, and that is exactly why Christ died for us. They also do not understand how the Holy Spirit works within the heart of a child of God.

You said, "Most of your cults...are works based.", and it is true really about EVERY religion that has ever been created. It doesn't matter if the end goal is heaven, or nirvana or happy hunting grounds, it is ALL based on what you must do to bind back to God. That's what the word "religion" actually means - to bind back. But it is Jesus Christ and Christianity that is opposite of every other religion, because it is NOT what we must do for God, but what He has done for us. Because of His amazing grace, we who were at one time enemies of God, estranged from Him by our sins and our depravity, have been bought and redeemed from the eternal death we all really deserve into the eternal presence of Almighty God to live with Him in glory. All He asks of us is FAITH. Believe in what He has done for us. Receive the free gift of everlasting life. When we do this, we are reborn - born again, born from above - and are His children for eternity.

You spoke about that passage in I John 1:7, "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. That is a very good point! It is ONLY when we walk in God's light that we can have fellowship with him. The "light" is not of our own doing. There is this wonderful passage in Isaiah 50:10-11

Who among you fears the Lord and obeys the word of his servant?
Let the one who walks in the dark, who has no light, trust in the name of the Lord and rely on their God.
But now, all you who light fires and provide yourselves with flaming torches, go, walk in the light of your fires and of the torches you have set ablaze. This is what you shall receive from my hand: You will lie down in torment.

So, God is saying if we walk in our "own" light, we will fail, we will lie down in torment, in sorrow, because it is NOT our own light that shows us the way, it is GOD'S!

Barnes' Notes on the Bible says this:

The idea probably is, that all human devices for salvation bear the same resemblance to the true plan proposed by God, which a momentary spark in the dark does to the clear shining of a bright light like that of the sun. If this is the sense, it is a most graphic and striking description of the nature of all the schemes by which the sinner hopes to save himself.

Thank you for your comments!