Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Eucharist -- John 6
CatholicThinker.net ^ | 2009 | CatholicThinker

Posted on 08/18/2012 9:13:06 PM PDT by Salvation

The Eucharist

All Christians know what "the Eucharist" is - virtually all celebrate it in some form.  Yet the teachings regarding it, and consequently the emphasis put upon it, by the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox, who share the same theology and same apostolic priesthood), is probably the single most important differentiation between Catholicism and Protestantism.

In this document I will demonstrate that the early Christian Church believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, centered their faith lives on this (the Mass), that Scripture completely and fully supports the Catholic teachings, and that virtually every Church Father of whom we have record confirmed this in his writings.  Some of these Fathers were direct disciples of Apostles in the 1st century of Christendom.

Protestants have many arguments against the Eucharist and the Mass.  They understand, correctly, that these things are the very heart of Catholicism (“Destroy the Mass, destroy the Church” – Luther).  To touch upon perhaps the greatest error (or most twisted teaching): Christ is not “re-crucified” at the Mass (a ridiculous and purposefully ignorant teaching): rather, Christ’s single, timeless Sacrifice on Calvary is “made present” and presented to the Father.  (Such a concept was readily to familiar to the early Christians, most of them Jews who considered their Passover sacrifice to be the “re-living” of the Exodus, not just its remembrance.)  God, of course, lies outside the bounds of time; all time is stretched out before Him to see.  Because humans offend Him with sin constantly, and in the present, it is fitting that His just anger be appeased continually by Christ’s propitiatory Sacrifice.

And this is exactly what we see in Hebrews and Revelations, understood by the first Christians as describing the Heavenly liturgy: the Lamb of God is presented continually to the Father, a propitiatory and eternal Sacrifice.

Christ ordered us to eat His Body and drink His Blood, in those words, and He meant just what He said, as we will see.

I can only scratch the surface of the deep and amazing theology of the Eucharist in this short essay.  I can present the core teachings of Scripture and of the early Church Fathers but I cannot, in the interests of reasonable length, speak to every “objection” or cover all the evidence completely.  Such is not my goal – and in any case I am not a scholar.  My goal is to whet the appetite of the sincere Christian to explore this topic at greater length.  What I will say is that the evidence for the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist on the Mass is overwhelming; the Catholic teaching and interpretation is the only reasonable one based on Scripture and the only one that is in harmony with the teachings and practice of the only early Christian Church we know of.  This is why it was not ever seriously challenged or even questioned until more than 1,500 years after Christ.  (If you think I am posturing here, the objective reader will see that is not the case.)

(Some Protestant denominations – such as the Anglicans - teach something somewhat similar to the Catholic ("Universal") teaching, but there is missing from all of them the heart of the Catholic teaching, that the Eucharist is both a thanksgiving and a re-presentation of Christ’s Sacrifice in propitiation for sin and that the species of bread and wine are really, substantially, and permanently changed by the act of consecration performed by the priest, who stands in persona Christi in Christ's stead.)

[Note: the Douay-Rheims translation of Scripture is used throughout.  In the words of John Salza, “It does not suffer from the defects of many modern Bibles (non-literal, dynamic translations; inclusive language.”  And “It is a word-for-word translation of the Latin Vulgate (compiled by St. Jerome from the original Hebrew and Greek under Pope St. Damasus), which is the official translation of the Catholic Church (the Vulgate has been universally used in the Latin Rite for over 1,600 years).”  If I occasionally find a passage in this translation obtuse –and I do – I merely examine the passage in a more modern translation as well and then the meanings of the archaic English idioms are made clear.

I declare that there is no argument presented herein that is in anyway dependent upon this particular translation of Scripture, and that if anyone wishes to challenge me on that with respect to a particular favored version (such as the KJV) I will respond.]

 

Scripture

John Chapter 6

The Lord's words establishing the basis for the doctrine are spoken in the Last Supper accounts, but possibly most importantly in John Ch 6.  Here are verses 46-65:

[46]  Not that any man hath seen the Father; but he who is of God, he hath seen the Father. [47]  Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. [48]  I am the bread of life. [49]  Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. [50]  This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.

[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. [53] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? [54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

[56] For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. [57] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. [58] As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. [59] This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever. [60] These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

[61] Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? [62] But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you? [63] If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? [64] It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. [65] But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him.

[66] And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. [67]  After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him.

There are a few important things to note about this passage:

Christ’s followers here – the non-believing ones – could not accept that He meant His words literally.  So, He repeated himself four times – four times He stated directly that one must “eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood” to “have live” (eternal live, that is). 

  • When these disciples responded with incredulity or doubt, asking for clarification, He only repeated His words, more strongly (adding “drink his blood”).
  • Some of His disciples “walked no more with Him” as a result of this teaching.  He did not attempt to keep them from going, as He surely would have if they had merely misunderstood the words.  No, it is even more obvious that His words meant exactly what He said, literally, for if not the teaching was not “hard” and would not have resulted in disciples who could not accept it.  In fact, this is the only instance recorded in the Gospels of Christ losing followers over a doctrinal matter – because they could not accept a teaching as given.
  • The literal meaning of the Greek word used for "eats" (trogon) actually means "chewing" or "gnawing” – a very graphic word that would not be used in metaphor.

The Protestant counter to the clear meaning of this text – the Catholic interpretation – relies on rather tortured logic and forced (not just non-literal) exegesis.  Christ, responding to those who found His words too “hard” to hear, said “It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing”; Protestants assert that Christ is now saying that, actually, flesh – His flesh – is of no real import.  But clearly this just doesn’t make sense – if that is what He meant then just went out of His way to make the point that His flesh is most critical only to contradict Himself – but allow those who evidently “misunderstood” Him to walk away anyway!

In fact, what Christ was doing in that verse was condemning human reason which prevented the scoffers from accepting and believing what He was telling them.  This is evident when He condemns judging “according to the flesh” later in chapter 8.  Christ is telling these disciples to open their intellect to divine guidance to understand the divine truth He was giving them.

[As a brief aside, a tendency in modern Protestant spirituality seems to be to downplay the physical world in favor of the “spiritual” – however, the physical world is intrinsically good because God made it and, furthermore, the Incarnation – God taking flesh – is indeed the pivotal Event of the universe.  Christ’s flesh gives us eternal life, which the elect will one day share with him in our glorified bodies.]

[We can see that some of the fatal flaws in the Protestant cornerstone of sola scriptura are evident here.  This doctrine says essentially that Scripture is plain enough for anyone to easily understand, yet when it clearly teaches something that is not to the liking of some readers, rather forced attempts to bend the plain meaning are introduced.  What is taught here is very simple and direct, and in any case, if it is not, this only goes to show that personal interpretation of Scripture apart from any Authority (that is, the Authority given by Christ to the Church's first head, Peter, and from he to his successors) is not possible or intended.]

This short document that expands upon the points I’ve made here:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp

The Last Supper

Jesus Christ instituted the Eucharist at the Last Supper; on that basic point, sans definitions, all or almost all Christians are in agreement.  The differences lie in these questions:

  • When Christ said "This is My Body" did he mean what He said?
  • When Christ said "Do this in remembrance of Me" what, exactly, was He commanding, and what do those "remembrances" constitute?

The Catholic teachings are that Christ meant exactly what He said when He consecrated the bread and wine and that these became, instantly, mystically His true Body and Blood, and that the "remembrance" of the Eucharist is actually its reliving - it's making-present of that event, which was a sacrifice (because Christ's actual Body and Blood were present), the Calvary Sacrifice itself.  These things are all made plain by both the Greek text of Scripture, other Scriptural passages, and the practice and teachings of the early Church and all the Church Fathers.  In fact, the actual meaning of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist was accepted so uncritically by the Church the details of it were not debated until about ten centuries in and the teaching was not seriously questioned, much less rejected, until the "Reformation" - more than 1,500 years after Christ.  This is made clear by the statements of the Church Fathers later in this document.

Before we look at an analysis of the Greek text, consider this basic point about Christ's own words at the Last Supper: If He had intended to mean that the bread and wine were merely symbols of His Body and Blood, He would have said so.  He was speaking to uneducated men who hung on His every word and who would build His Church.  Since it is an undebatable fact that the Church believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist universally for 1,500 years it would have been utterly scandalous and preposterous for Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, to speak the words that caused this belief if they were not actually true.

And now, the Greek, courtesy of John Salza, which refutes the (contrived) Protestant objection that the bread remained bread because Christ's "this" refers to the bread: "The Greek transliteration of "This is my Body which is given for you" in Lk 22:19 is Touto esti to soma mou to uper hymon didomenon.  Like many languages, Greek adjectives have genders (masculine, feminine, or neuter) which agree with their object nouns.  The word 'this' (touto) is a neuter adjective.  The word 'bread' (artos) is a masculine noun.  This means that the neuter adjective 'this' is not referring to the masculine noun 'bread', because their genders do not correspond" (emphasis mine).  "Instead, 'this' refers to 'body' (soma), which is a neuter noun.  In light of the grammatical structure, Jesus does not say 'This bread is my body,' as the Protestant argument contends.  Instead, Jesus says 'This [new substance] is my body,' or more literally, 'This [new substance] s the body of me.'

Paul emphasizes the connection between 'this' and Jesus' 'body' even more conspicuously.  In 1 Cor 11:24, Paul records Jesus' words as Touto mou esti to soma.  As we can see, mou (of me) comes immediately after toutu (this).  Literally, this phrase is translated as 'This of me is the body.'  That is, Paul connects 'this' to the Person of Jesus more closely by adding 'of me' right after 'this' and right before 'body'.  Again, the Greek does not allow 'this' to refer to the bread, but to the new substance, which is Jesus' body."

The passages concerning the wine/Blood in Mt 26:28 uses completely analogous Greek grammar.

Salza also notes that the phrase "touto esti" (this is) is used six other times in the Gospels and in every single case its object is literal - not once is it used in a metaphor or any sort of symbolism.

Another common Protestant objection is that Christ was referring to his future death in mentioning His Body & Blood.  But the tense of Christ's language in the Greek is what's know as double-present; it is absolutely in the present tense and cannot possibly refer to any future event.  (Christ's saying "This is My Body" is mystical and reveals the (instantaneous) action of the Divine in the same way His healings did: "Pick up your mat and walk."  The Word speaks and it is.)

It is very interesting to note that Christ's phrase "blood of the covenant [or testament]" is identical to Moses' as he sprinkles the Israelites with animal blood.  As Salza notes, "The Jewish apostles would have understood immediately that Jesus was instituting, at that very moment a New Covenant sacrifice that would replace the Old Covenant sacrifices."

The Memorial Sacrifice

After Christ consecrated and distributed His Body and Blood, He commanded the apostles to "Do this in remembrance of Me."  That word - remembrance - is very important, because the Greek word it is translated from refers to a deep and complex concept that has no proper word or even short phrase in modern languages.  That word is anamnesis, and, according to the best evidence, means a type of memorial sacrifice.  What is a memorial sacrifice?  Note that it's not the memorial of a sacrifice but rather a sacrifice that is itself a memorial - a critical distinction.

Because there is some contention regarding the meaning of anamnesis, we will look at how it is used elsewhere in the New Testament and the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament).  

In the Old Testament, anamnesis is used to refer to either a bread sacrifice or a blood sacrifice - a memorial sacrifice, that is.  Lev 24, full of the same terminology of priests, eating, memorial sacrifice, incense and bread that surrounds the Eucharist, speaks of the anamnesis of Aaron's priesthood.  And Numbers 10 speaks of the burnt offerings of anamnesis offered to God to atone for sin.  The parallels with the New Covenant Sacrifice are plentiful.

Anamnesis is used only once in the New Testament outside of the Last Supper narratives, in Heb 10, where Paul speaks of the Levitical sacrifices.

So, the concept of anamnesis existed in the Hebrew culture (religion): as mentioned in the Introduction the Passover itself has always been regarded by Jews as not just a remembrance of the Exodus, but as a re-living or "making present" of those events.  And so it is with the Eucharist: It is the making-present, in a mystical way, of Christ's sacrificial death.  When Christ said "Do this anamnesis" He literally said "Celebrate this memorial sacrifice".  And so the Church has always done:

1 Corinthians

But we needn’t guess as to whether or not the first Christians understood Christ’s directive about eating His flesh as He said it or not, for this is made apparent with further clarity elsewhere in Scripture (and in the record of the early Church).  In 1 Corinthians, Paul discusses the nature and importance of the Eucharist.  Here is Ch 11:23-30:

[23] For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. [24]  And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. [25]  In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.

[26] For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. [27] Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. [30] Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.

This passage makes it extremely clear that Paul – who received his understanding of it directly from Jesus Christ, as he declares – regards the Eucharist as truly the Body and Blood of Christ.

First, Paul adds a critical interpretation to the words of the Last Supper: “For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.”  Thus, the Eucharist is primarily about Christ’s death – that is, His Cacrifice.  Paul does not even mention the Lord’s resurrection in describing the essential quality of the Eucharist.  (This demonstrates that the primary nature of the Eucharist (Mass) is solemn, because it is primarily about the Lord’s Sacrifice.  The Eucharist (Mass) is primarily a sacrifice and secondarily a meal – because in all of God’s sacrificial covenants the sacrificial victim is consumed.  We will return to this sub-topic later.) 

Next, Paul is chastising the Corinthians for not having proper respect for the Eucharist – for receiving it unworthily.  He points out that because of this many of them are sick and dying.  “Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord... For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep” (have died).  

Probably the biggest take-away from this passage is that the Eucharist cannot be simply a symbol.  It is impossible that anyone be “guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord” if the Eucharist were not indeed actually “the Body and Blood of the Lord”, and not merely a symbol of such!  Furthermore, the “guilt” (krima) that Paul says is called down upon those who partake of the Eucharist unworthily is nothing less than eternal damnation – it is used to mean such by Paul in both Romans and 1 Tim.  As John Salza says, “Either God inspired Paul to impose and unjust penalty on us (which is impossible) or the Eucharist is the actual Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.”  There are no other possibilities.

[Protestant apologists, aware of this passage’s relevance to the Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist, frequently attack Paul’s use of the terms “bread and cup”, asserting that this demonstrates that Paul actually did regard the Eucharistic species as mere bread and wine.  But, like many Protestant challenges to Catholic doctrines, this argument seems either ignorant or contrived when the facts are considered (and like them all it is incorrect).  Paul uses the terms somewhat interchangeably as to the senses the Body & Blood do appear as bread and wine – he is emphasizing the fact that while the sacred species may appear to be mere bread and wine, it is necessary to “discern” the Body and Blood of the Lord in them – or suffer the punishment he warns of.  Again, Paul’s dire warning, and indeed the entire passage, simply make no sense if it is simple bread and wine that are being discussed.]

Chapter 10 of 1 Corinthians also contains some Eucharistic theology we will consider.  In this chapter Paul reminds the Corinthians of the experience of the Israelites under Moses: the miracles of the parting of the sea and of the manna, their spiritual food:

[1]  For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea. [2]  And all in Moses were baptized, in the cloud, and in the sea: [3]  And did all eat the same spiritual food, [4]  And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.) [5]  But with most of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the desert.

He then warns them against idolatry (as the Israelites also fell into) and temptation.  And then, he instantly shifts to speaking of the Eucharist:

[16]  The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord? [17]  For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread. [18]  Behold Israel according to the flesh: are not they, that eat of the sacrifices, partakers of the altar?

Clearly he is drawing a parallel between the Israelites spiritual food – the manna – and the spiritual food of the New Covenant.  That is, like so many things in the New Covenant that were prefigured in the Old, the manna prefigured the Eucharist.  Now, consider this:

  • The manna was truly miraculous: food created miraculously out of nothing in the desert. 
  • Every element of the New Covenant that is prefigured in the Old is greater than that which is prefigured.
  • Thus, the Eucharist is indeed a greater miracle than the manna.

If the Eucharist were nothing but a symbolic representation of Christ in what possible way would it be greater than the miraculous creation of food out of nothing for thousands of people?  In no way would it be.  However, since the Eucharist is actually God Himself becoming our food and drink, it is indeed a far greater miracle than the manna in the desert.

[John Salza’s exegesis of 1 Corinthians 10 & 11 in The Biblical Basis for the Eucharist is the best I’ve ever seen, and includes in-depth analysis of significances of the original Greek text that are largely lost in translation.  Here is one example: “Paul’s use of the word ‘participation’ (or ‘partake’ in the Bible version I’m using) (Greek, koinonia) also demonstrates that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ.  Koinonia means an actual, intimate communion, or sharing, in something else.  T does not refer to a symbolic or metaphorical participation.  The Corinthians would have certainly understood Paul’s usage of the term.”]

Hebrews & Revelation

The books of Hebrews and Revelation contain vivid imagery of Jesus Christ in heaven, interceding for us before the Father with His shed Blood as a propitiatory sacrifice.  The theology of the Eucharist is bound up in this imagery, as taught and believed by the early Church.  It is a stunningly deep and beautiful theology, woven together with the teachings and prophecies of the Old Testament, but eclipsing the Old Covenant as the perfection of God eclipses fallen man.

Melchisedech and Jesus Christ

In the Letter to the Hebrews, Paul makes the case that Christ is a priest "in the order of Melchisedech"  (or "Melchizedek").  "Thou art a priest forever, in the order of Melchisedech" (5:6); "Called by God a high priest according to the order of Melchisedech" (5:10); "Where the forerunner Jesus is entered for us, made a high priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech." (6:20).  John Salza points out the most pertinent details of Melchisedech priesthood:

- Melchisedech is described as the "king of Salem" - this also means "king of peace", a prototype of one of Christ's titles.

- Melchisedech was made a priest by God directly, not via bloodline (as with the Levitical priesthood); and his priesthood was eternal as well.  This foreshadowed Christ and His New Testament priests, who acquire their priesthood via an oath (sacramentum).

- Melchisedech offered an unbloody sacrifice of bread and wine, a thanksgiving (eucharistein) for God's deliverance of Abram from his enemies.  "As Melchisedech offered his sacrifice of behalf of Abram, Jesus would offer His sacrifice on Abram/Abraham's [spiritual] offspring those who are members of His Church" (Salza).

- Melchisedech is greater than Abram, one of the holiest men in all of Scripture.  This is made evident by the fact that Melchisedech blesses Abram.

- Since Melchisedech was called a priest but made no bloody offering, his bread and wine offering must have been a sacrifice (this is sometimes contested by Protestant apologists trying to wiggle out of the plain interpretation of the text).  This also makes clear (as do many other things), that Christ's Last Supper offering was a sacrifice since Christ's priesthood is "in the order of Melchisedech".  "Further, because Scripture says Jesus made a 'single sacrifice' and 'single offering', this means that the Last Supper sacrifice and the sacrifice of the Cross are the same sacrifice" (Salza, and the emphasis is his).

Salza goes on to describe the many parallels between the Mass and Melchisedech's offering.

Christ in Heaven Today & Forever

After introducing Melchisedech as a prototype of Christ, Paul, mainly in chapters 8-10, discusses the priesthood of Christ in detail - the eternal priesthood He exercises before the Father in heaven.  That it is Christ's perpetual priesthood in heaven that is being discussed by Paul is made completely clear.  Furthermore, he states directly, "If then he were on earth, he would not be a priest: seeing that there would be others to offer gifts according to the law" (8:4).  (Meaning He would not be a priest since He was not a Levite.)

- "Now of the things which we have spoken, this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of majesty in the heavens, A minister of the holies, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord hath pitched, and not man" (8:1-2).

- "But Christ, being come an high priest of the good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, that is, not of this creation: Neither by the blood of goats, or of calves, but by his own blood, entered once into the holies, having obtained eternal redemption (9:11-12).

We come now to the meat of the matter: What Christ the Eternal High Priest is doing in heaven, as "minister of the holies and of the true tabernacle".  Salza: "Scripture teaches us that the principle duty of a priest is to offer sacrifice.  Paul in the epistle to the Hebrews says, 'for every high priest... is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sin' (5:1)... Paul then says about Jesus, in the very same verse, 'hence it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer'.

Note that Paul says it is “necessary” for Jesus to “have something to offer” in Heaven!  Where do Protestants get the notion (that they tend to express so confidently along with several other of their core theological tenets that actually contradict Scripture) that Christ’s work was completely and entirely finished on the Cross?  In a sense, it was, as Christ’s Sacrifice is singular, the same Sacrifice continually presented to the Father for the appeasement of our (constant) sins, yet according to Paul Christ is indeed doing something in Heaven on our behalf.

To summarize this important passage:

  • All priests, according to Paul, offer "gifts and sacrifices"
  • Christ, then, the Eternal High Priest, also must have something to offer
  • The only thing the Father could possibly accept as a propitiatory sacrifice from Christ would be the Cross, because anything else would be less than this, and since the Father has decreed from all time that Christ's Sacrifice was what was necessary, He could not at some other time be satisfied by any other gift or sacrifice.
  • The reason perpetual appeasement is necessary, until the end of the world, is that mankind persists in sin until the end of the world.
  • Thus, Christ perpetually presents to the Father His one-time Sacrifice, His shed Blood, and the Father is appeased.

Protestants are rightly disturbed by the notion of Christ being "re-crucified", either in heaven or the Mass.  But this is not what Scripture teaches and not what occurs.  Salza notes that whenever Scripture speaks of Christ's suffering it is always in the past tense.  But when it speaks of His Sacrifice, it is in the present tense and connected "with His appearance in heaven to empathize that both the sacrifice and the appearance are ongoing".  See Hebrews 7:27 and 9:12 for example: in both verses Paul uses the phrase "once for all" to describe Christ's Sacrifice and his entering of the holy place in heaven.  In other words, these are ongoing, perpetual actions.  (And, interestingly, Greek has verb tenses that make this ongoing action explicit, but English does not.)

In the descriptions of the heavenly liturgy in Revelations (which never fail to put a lump in my throat), John calls Jesus the Lamb that "was slain from the beginning of the world" (13:8).  (In fact, Christ is referred to as the "Lamb" twenty-eight times in this book, emphasizing his propitiatory sacrifice.)  He also describes Him as a Lamb "standing, as though it had been slain".  But slain Lambs do not stand.  These verses are describing the Atonement as both eternal and timeless, always present before the Father.  Salza comments again about the original text: "The Greek is translated as 'having been standing' (histemi) and 'having been slain' (sphazo).  John's use of perfect participles to describe both Christ's standing and slain conditions indicate that Christ began to exhibit those conditions at a specific moment in the past, and that both conditions are ongoing."

The use of "altar" in both Hebrews and Revelations further underscores the sacrificial purpose of Christ's presence before the Father, for there would be no altar without a sacrifice.  Christ's bloodstained clothing is likewise that of a priest, for Christ is both High Priest and Victim of the Sacrifice.  And the vision of the Apocalypse is connected to the Eucharist by the reference to "hidden manna" - Christ likened His Body and Blood to the manna, it's Old Testament prefigurement, in the Gospel.  Salza: "The manna is 'hidden' by our senses but revealed by faith, which God desires from His New Covenant people."

Christ "entered once" into the holies (the Holy Place) with his "own blood" (Heb 9:12).  In these verses Paul sets up comparisons between the imperfect animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant and the single, perfect Sacrifice of the new.  The OT Levites took animals' blood into the earthly sanctuary while Christ does the same in the heavenly fulfillment of its purpose.  And, again, we must note that Paul speaks of the ongoing application of Christ's sacrifice, speaking in the present tense.

And then there is something extremely interesting, something that will take us ultimately where we are going: Paul reveals to us (in one of those details that it always popping out of the richness of Scripture, and so easily missed) that Christ's single Sacrifice does have a plural component.  Here is Heb 9:22-24:

And almost all things, according to the law, are cleansed with blood: and without shedding of blood there is no remission.  It is necessary therefore that the patterns of heavenly things should be cleansed with these: but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.  For Jesus is not entered into the holies made with hands, the patterns  of the true: but into heaven itself, that he may appear now in the presence of God for us.

"Better sacrifices"!  There is absolutely no doubt that Paul is speaking of the Sacrifice of the New Testament here, but there is only one.  How does the Sacrifice of Calvary have a plural dimension?  Paul's readers, the first Christians, who were instructed primarily by oral tradition as the Gospels and most of the epistles had not yet been written, much less copied and distributed, would know immediately that he was referring to the Sacrifice of the Mass, where Christ's Sacrifice is made really and truly present.  But Paul does explain the connection in his letter here as well.

Paul tells us that Jesus is the “mediator of a new covenant”.  Jesus used these words “New Covenant” only one time, when He instituted the Eucharist at the Last Supper.  So, these terms (New Covenant, blood, and forgiveness of sin) appear in Scripture only in the Last Supper account as well as here: there can be no doubt of the direct connection.

As we have seen, Paul has also told us that Christ’s priesthood is modeled after Melchizedek’s, who offered bread and wine

 

And one final example that Scripture teaches that the blood of the Eucharist is really and truly Christ's Blood.  The phrase "the blood of the covenant [testament]" appears only twice in the New Testament: used once by Christ when He instituted the Eucharist and then again by Paul (who, again, received his instruction about the Eucharist from Jesus Christ directly) in Hebrews (13:20-21):

"And may the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great pastor of the sheep, our Lord Jesus Christ, in the blood of the everlasting testament [covenant], fit you in all goodness, that you may do his will; doing in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom is glory for ever and ever. Amen."

In the quote above Paul wishes that Christ's blood will "fit" [equip] us in goodness and cause us to do His will.  Only Christ's actual blood could be said to have such a power - not a symbol of it!  Thus, if "the blood of the Covenant" is not Christ's Blood, Paul has seriously misused Christ's words from the Last Supper.

"It Is Finished"

As I have alluded to above, there is another objection Protestant apologists raise to deny that Christ is perpetually offering sacrifice in heaven (as the Scriptures we've looked at clearly teach): they point to Christ's announcement from the Cross, before His death, that "It is finished".  Does this mean that at that point, of His death, that His work for eternity was completed?  Surely, His death on the Cross, and thus the fulfillment of certain prophecies, were "finished", but not necessarily His actions in eternity.

In John 17:4, Jesus says He has "finished" the work the Father sent him to do - before the Crucifixion.  It is never possible in the exegesis of Scripture to make assumptions about the meaning of a single word; the entire passage must be examined carefully using all available tools.  

Here is John 19:28-30, where "finished" is used twice - although Douay-Rheims actually uses accomplished and consummated, apparently a more faithful translation:

Afterwards, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said: I thirst.  Now there was a vessel set there full of vinegar. And they, putting a sponge full of vinegar and hyssop, put it to his mouth.  Jesus therefore, when he had taken the vinegar, said: It is consummated. And bowing his head, he gave up the ghost. 

I am once again going to quote John Salza for an analysis of the Greek text (which I am far from capable of):<quote snipped; stay tuned>.

And he continues with something fascinating: "What did Jesus really mean when He said 'I thirst'?  He was thirsting to satisfy the Father's wrath against our sins.  The wine Jesus receives is an allusion to the cup of God's wrath.  Jesus presents the cup at the Last Supper, acknowledges it is the Garden of Gethsemane, refuses to drink it while He carries His cross, until He finally completes His propitiatory sacrifice.  This continuity of the 'cup' from the Last Supper to the Cross underscores that they are one and the same sacrifice.

The Church Fathers And The Early Church

Here's a really great synopsis of what the major Fathers had to say about the Eucharist:

http://therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

This demonstrates that essentially every Father of the Faith that we have on record spoke of the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, usually as a given but occasionally in defense.  (Please do keep in mind that there was no Church but the Catholic Church at this time - outside of a few minor, heretical sects.)

The above document is very long; here are a couple other tidbits.  In AD 107, St. Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, wrote a great deal about the Eucharist as he "traveled westward to his martyrdom".  Ignatius' words should probably be given more weight than even the average Church Father - in his youth he was a disciple of the Apostle John himself.  If anyone would know Christ's true teachings on the Eucharist in the 1st century, it would be someone like Ignatius, who was taught by one who walked with the Lord.  Here's one quote:  "Take care, then, to have but one Eucharist.  For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to show forth the unity of His blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, along with the priests and deacons, my fellow servants."

Here is how he combated the early heresy denying the presence of Christ in the Eucharist (which surfaced again at the Reformation, this time to stay): "From the Eucharist and prayer they hold aloof, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ."  Who today among baptized Christians does not confess that the consecrated Eucharist is the flesh of the Savior?

Next, I'm going to quote passages from the Didache; this is a document written in Antioch between 50-100 AD that is attributed to the Apostles (its historocity is completely established).  It too shows that the Eucharist was the center of Christian worship, and that the structure of the Mass is extraordinarily similar to what we have today.  The quotes come from The Lamb's Supper; Hahn cites his references therein.  The following passage is the Eucharistic Prayer from the Didache, again, dating no later than 100 AD:

“As this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains and, gathered together, became one, so may Your Church be gathered together from the ends of the Earth into Your kingdom; for Yours is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ forever and ever.  But let no one east or drink of this Eucharistic thanksgiving, except those who have been baptized into the name of the Lord… Almighty Master, You created all things for Your name’s sake, and gave food and drink to men for enjoyment, that they might give thanks to You; but You bestowed upon us spiritual food and drink and eternal life through Your Son…Remember, Lord, Your Church.  Deliver it from all evil and perfect it in Your love; gather it together from the four winds – the Church that has been sanctified – into Your kingdom which You have prepared for it."

And, concerning another sacrament, the ordination of priests (Holy Orders): "Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist which is administered either by the bishop of by one to whom he has entrusted it."

Here is another very old passage describing an early Mass - this is attributed to the 2nd century - AD 155.  A man known as Justin who was the first Christian to make public many details of the faith wrote it.  This except is from a letter he wrote to the Roman emperor.  Again, its description of the Mass is uncannily similar to how we celebrate today:

"On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.  The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.  When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.  Then we all rise together and offer prayers for ourselves... and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.  When the prayers are concluded we exchanges the kiss. Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.  He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name o the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.  When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying "Amen".  When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the eucharisted bread, wine, and water and take them to those who are absent."

(Note his use of the term "eucharisted", showing that he realized that a transformation (transubstantiation) of the bread takes place.)

Aquilina has this to say: "In both the Old and New Testaments, the faithful found intimations of the Eucharist.  The narrative of the Last Supper often appears in this context [early Mass], as do Jesus' Bread of Life discourse and the 11th chapter of 1 Corinthians.  But these 'literal' references, while foundational, were only the beginning.  Like Jesus and Paul, the early Christians also discerned a 'spiritual' sense of the Scriptures, a mystical meaning behind the literal sense of a story or precept.  Thus, while they [rightly] believe Jesus' multiplication of loaves was a true event, they also believed that he performed it as a sign prefiguring His Eucharist.  Indeed, that connection was so commonplace in the early Church that Origin, uncharacteristically, did not bother to explain it in his commentary on Mathew (10:25), but merely mentioned it in passing.

The early Christians used the same interpretive key on the wedding feast at Cana, where Jesus changed water into wine.  Likewise, when Jesus taught the Lord's Prayer, Tertullian, St. Cyprian, and St. Cyril understood the "daily bread" to be the Eucharist.

Such Eucharistic interpretations extended also to the Old Testament, where the Fathers found many "Types" that would be fulfilled in the antitype of the Mass.  A type is the foreshadowing of something greater; Adam, for example, is a type of Christ (Romans 5:14).  An antitype is the fulfillment of the thing foreshadowed: Christ is the antitype of Adam.  Read in the context of the Eucharist Psalm 23, with its "table" and anointing was, for Cyril of Jerusalem, a foreshadowing of the sacraments.  For Origen and many others, the story of the Passover and Exodus was rich in Eucharistic typology, as was the account of Melchizedek in Genesis 14.  The offering of fine flour by those cured of leprosy (Lev 14:10) was, according to Justin, a sign of the bread that would be offered for the forgiveness of sins.

The prophecy most often applied to the Eucharist was from Malachi.  "For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts, but you profane it" (Mal 1:10-12).  For the Fathers, the Eucharist was the Church's participation in the one sacrifice of Christ, the everlasting hope and extension of his love!  In the accounts of the Didache, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Cyprian, Cyril, and many others, the Mass is "the Sacrifice" offered by the Church - the Church that was itself the Body of Christ.  Christ, then, is the offering - the Passover Lamb - and Christ was the priest who made the offering.  The offering was perfect and the Priest was sinless, thus fulfilling in glory all the sacrifices of ancient Israel."

Such heady stuff, indeed!  The Catholic Church, from the time of the Apostles, is so alive, so real, so physical, that we've no doubt at all that Christ is with us, as He promised, until the end of the age.

"In every place incense is offered to my name" - how right the Fathers were, guided by the Spirit - in their time, the Mass was not yet said "in every place", but it was not long before the Church could indeed be found in every place in the world - every single nation.

Miraculous Evidence for Christ's Real Presence In The Eucharist

Take a look here:

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

and perhaps here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbg_dhI4XCs

Is this just too incredible to be true?  God couldn't work in our world like this?  And why could He not?  My future wife and I saw the Miraculous Host and Blood in Lanciano in May 2006 on our European pilgrimage.  I really can't describe what it was like to see in person. 

[Please do note that this would be rather impossible to fake.  It is well documented that it has existed throughout the centuries, unchanged.  This alone is a miracle - it is open to air and should have decayed to dust if it were any sort of natural material.  It is also certain that, even in modern times, science lacks the ability to create organic material such as this, genetically human and yet in the form of a Host.  Of course, there are always those that claim such inherently Catholic miracles are fraudulent.  These folks fall into two major categories, in my experience: religion-hating atheists and fundamentalist Christians.]

This site contains documentation on many other Eucharistic Miracles as well – there are dozens affirmed by the Church.  The Church realizes the miracles are not "proof" of anything, really - they are gifts from God to strengthen our faith in a world of doubt.  They are wonderful and beautiful and demonstrate the incredible truth and beauty of our faith.  But our faith does not come from them - it is the other way around; it is faith that allows one to believe in miracles.  This does not mean one can’t rationalize one's way around them if such is the goal, but to do so does require the abandonment of reason as well as faith.  These miracles are not only supported by reason; sound reason demands their acceptance as miraculous.

Conclusion

This essay has touched upon the richness of the Sacrament of the Eucharist in the Catholic faith.  The Eucharist, more than any other Sacrament, belies the persistent and pervasive "bias against the physical" that Catholic converts from Protestantism often comment on as being present in Protestantism (especially modern American Protestantism).  The notion that God can and does impart grace through the physical is antithetical to this mindset.  A word used by several of my favorite Catholic apologists (most of them former Protestants) to denote the opposite of this mindset is Incarnational.  For, says David Currie, when one learns to fully appreciate what our God becoming a human being with a human body really means, the notion that He would provide us his grace through physical things is not at all strange.

- Catholic teaching & understanding so much more beautiful and deep than P, which is staid, human, pathetic even.

- world is full of evil and we NEED to make reparation for our sin.  Protestant errors cost people their souls.

It is important to point out that the Catholic Church (along with the Orthodox) is the only place where a true Eucharist - the Real Presence of Christ - can be found.  Only the Catholic Church actually teaches the doctrine, as it has unchanged and unceasingly for nearly 2,000 years.  And the Church (again, along with the Orthodox bodies, who are in formal schism with the hierarchical Church Christ founded) is the only body where the chain of apostolic succession remains valid: it takes a validly ordained priest to perform consecration.  In fact, due to the lack a valid priesthood, savvy Protestants are aware that a valid Eucharist is not possible within their worship structure, even if they would believe in the Real Presence, and it could be said that this may be another reason why their most committed apologists spend so much time attacking the Catholic teaching.

- It's a matter of faith; every Christian must examine the evidence and either accept or prove why they shouldn’t.  No excuse for not thirsting for truth.  The lukewarm are spit out.

He promised us he would be with us, and He is, in a real, direct, and physical way, "until the end of the age".

References:

Salza, John, The Biblical Basis for the Eucharist, Our Sunday Visitor, 2008.

Aquilina, Mike, The Mass of the Early Christians, Our Sunday Visitor, 2001.

Hahn, Scott, The Lamb's Supper, Doubleday, 1999.

Jurgens, William A, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Liturgical Press, 1980.



TOPICS: Catholic; History; Ministry/Outreach; Worship
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; eucharist; holycommunion; john6
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 201-220 next last
To: RaisingCain
I have drank His blood and eaten His flesh. I did so through faith, just as He himself said.

Amen, so have I! I think our FRoman catholic friends maybe were a little bored lately since the Religion Forum hasn't been as acrimonious as they seem to like, so they repost yet another provocative thread mocking "those" Protestants and boasting that they alone have the only real gateway to salvation. Yet, we understand from the Holy Scriptures that we ARE save by grace through faith and NOT by the deeds or works that we do.

Telling people they HAVE to go to Mass and receive the literal body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ through a "legitimate" apostolic priest saying the precise words and wearing the "right" garments, etc. to ever have a glimmer of a hope that they may one day be worthy to go to their "beatific vision" is just plain UNSCRIPTURAL. It is also an accursed Gospel since it is something other than what Paul said WAS the Gospel.

The Catholic Church teaches that the Mass is a propitiatory sacrifice for sin and this is why she insists that without participating in the Eucharist a set number of times a year, you cannot be saved. The Mass, then is just another "means" of getting grace. But we know from Scripture that it is faith alone in the finished work of Christ that saves us from our sins and we can be assured that we have been redeemed from the penalty of our sins and can KNOW that we HAVE everlasting life. So much of what the Catholic Church has taught over the centuries is NOT what has been "always and everywhere believed", but is a compromise of differing interpretations and ideologies of those who came before. There is an excellent essay on this subject that speaks about the differing views of the "church fathers" and the development of the doctrines they now claim to hold. It is http://www.the-highway.com/eucharist_Webster.html. This additional link gives several short essays into the subject: http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/search?q=eucharist.

It is humorous that in the article of this current thread, the author derides the Protestant doctrine of sola Scriptura saying the rejection of the "literal" Catholic version of the Lord's Supper goes against the doctrine, but then the author quotes verses to try to prove his interpretation is the ONLY correct one. Catholics usually think all that matters is what they are told is de fide (of the faith) today and don't worry whether or not Scripture substantiates it. We know, however, that the Bible is the God-breathed truth that IS the authority for our Christian faith. Counting on fallible and sinful men to be the Oracles of God to us is faulty and, even, deadly.

We know that Scripture teaches Christ died "once for all" and that He "is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them." I'm not worried in the least that not being a Roman Catholic condemns me - because for freedom Christ has set me free.

41 posted on 08/18/2012 11:18:23 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: RaisingCain

“I’m not surprised you’ve never heard of it before. Catholics, on average, can’t be depended upon to read the Bible! As for the article, it does nothing to address what I have said.”

~ ~ ~

So many confirmations, read the below and reply. Still, Jesus wants you to believe, HAVE FAITH dear RaisingCain, God can make this happen, His presence in the Eucharist.

You believe in the Incarnation, it’s supernatural, yes?
There’s more supernatural so come along, change, accept
the Eucharist on faith.

The Memorial Sacrifice

After Christ consecrated and distributed His Body and Blood, He commanded the apostles to “Do this in remembrance of Me.” That word - remembrance - is very important, because the Greek word it is translated from refers to a deep and complex concept that has no proper word or even short phrase in modern languages. That word is ANAMNESIS, and, according to the best evidence, means a type of memorial sacrifice. What is a memorial sacrifice? Note that it’s not the memorial of a sacrifice but rather a sacrifice that is itself a memorial - a critical distinction.

Because there is some contention regarding the meaning of anamnesis, we will look at how it is used elsewhere in the New Testament and the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament).

In the Old Testament, anamnesis is used to refer to either a bread sacrifice or a blood sacrifice - a memorial sacrifice, that is. Lev 24, full of the same terminology of priests, eating, memorial sacrifice, incense and bread that surrounds the Eucharist, speaks of the anamnesis of Aaron’s priesthood. And Numbers 10 speaks of the burnt offerings of anamnesis offered to God to atone for sin. The parallels with the New Covenant Sacrifice are plentiful.

Anamnesis is used ONLY ONCE in the New Testament outside of the Last Supper narratives, in Heb 10, where Paul speaks of the Levitical sacrifices.

So, the concept of anamnesis existed in the Hebrew culture (religion): as mentioned in the Introduction the Passover itself has always been regarded by Jews as not just a remembrance of the Exodus, but as a re-living or “making present” of those events. And so it is with the Eucharist: It is the making-present, in a mystical way, of Christ’s sacrificial death. When Christ said “Do this anamnesis” He literally said “Celebrate this memorial sacrifice”. And so the Church has always done:


42 posted on 08/18/2012 11:18:55 PM PDT by stpio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: RaisingCain
"God specifically said faith is required:
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This is John and the statement is not the fundamental governing statement on salvation, nor does it cover all possibilities. I pointed out what God said about the matter above, who are His sheep and that what He said on the matter is fundamental and covers all possibilities.

What you gave from John does not cover those folks that are considered the goats by God in Matt 25:41-46. It also doesn't cover what God said in Matthew 23:15 about "believers" — "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are."

43 posted on 08/18/2012 11:24:56 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: spunkets

“God in Matt 25:31-39 contradicts this simple reading of Paul. “


To be righteous, one must first be cleaned by God. Presumably you have told lies, have lusted after women (if you are a man), have not loved the Lord God with all your heart and soul.

The scripture teaches that if we offend in even one part, we are guilty of violating the entire law.

Jas_2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

It also teaches that there are NONE who are righteous:

Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Rom 3:10-13 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

So how does one become righteous?

Christ answers:

Joh 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh_6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

The scripture is quite clear that we must eat of His flesh, and drink of His blood, in order to be saved. He literally GAVE His flesh on the cross to take on the sins of the world. As the other scripture I showed you from Christ Himself demonstrates, if you do not eat of this bread or drink of His blood, you are damned already. (Of course, the words that I speak are SPIRIT and LIFE :).)

As for those who never heard of Christ, they will be judged according to their works by God’s perfect judgment according to natural law, which all men have written on their hearts.

Rom 2:12-16 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (13) (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: (15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) (16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Unfortunately, it is a terrible thing to stand before the mighty God on the basis of your OWN “righteousness,” as any fair rendering of even the natural law would reveal every man to be hopelessly depraved. Whatever Christ’s judgment on that day, you can rest assured it will be a fair one. Not fair in your Universalist sense, of course, but fair according to the perfect Judge of the world. If it were not so, what would be the point of any of Christ’s teachings? It is a dangerous thing to depend on your own righteousness, as all men everywhere are depraved in every age and every corner of the globe.


44 posted on 08/18/2012 11:33:22 PM PDT by RaisingCain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: spunkets

“This is John and the statement is not the fundamental governing statement on salvation, nor does it cover all possibilities. I pointed out what God said about the matter above, who are His sheep and that what He said on the matter is fundamental and covers all possibilities.”


That is not John. It is in the Gospel of John. But those are the words of Christ.


45 posted on 08/18/2012 11:38:10 PM PDT by RaisingCain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: stpio

I already addressed that the word Ananmnesis does not actually mean “Memorial Sacrifice.” Read my post on it.


46 posted on 08/18/2012 11:39:37 PM PDT by RaisingCain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: RaisingCain
Re: Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

"That is not John. It is in the Gospel of John. But those are the words of Christ.

They are the words of John, not Christ. John is stating what he believes, which is not what God said on the matter of condemnation.

47 posted on 08/18/2012 11:57:01 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: spunkets

“They are the words of John, not Christ. John is stating what he believes, which is not what God said on the matter of condemnation.”


It specifically cites Christ as the speaker! Do you deny that the Gospel of John is authentic then? Quite convenient to cut out and paste in only what is convenient, and yet you have the audacity to attempt to argue from scripture!


48 posted on 08/19/2012 12:00:20 AM PDT by RaisingCain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: RaisingCain
"The scripture teaches that if we offend in even one part, we are guilty of violating the entire law. Jas_2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

That's faulty logic and the passage is taken out of context. The full meaning can only be grasped by including the next passage, which was left out. James 2:10,11, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker." All it means is that one transgression renders a person a lawbreaker, not a breaker of every law.

"God said in John 9 that neither the blind man, nor his parents sinned. Most of the other characters in the passage were determined that he did. They even invented the concept of original sin to make him a sinner from birth and the motivation was their desire and determination for that blind man to call Jesus a sinner. The blind man, who was no longer blind refused to call Jesus a sinner and they just couldn't stand that, so they invented original sin as an ad hominem response to validate their own "righteousness" and "worth". BTW, Noah was also righteous.

"...all men everywhere are depraved in every age and every corner of the globe."

I don't believe it.

49 posted on 08/19/2012 12:26:49 AM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: RaisingCain
Sorry, post got messed up...

"The scripture teaches that if we offend in even one part, we are guilty of violating the entire law. Jas_2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

That's faulty logic and the passage is taken out of context. The full meaning can only be grasped by including the next passage, which was left out. James 2:10,11, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker." All it means is that one transgression renders a person a lawbreaker, not a breaker of every law.

God said in John 9 that neither the blind man, nor his parents sinned. Most of the other characters in the passage were determined that he did. They even invented the concept of original sin to make him a sinner from birth and the motivation was their desire and determination for that blind man to call Jesus a sinner. The blind man, who was no longer blind refused to call Jesus a sinner and they just couldn't stand that, so they invented original sin as an ad hominem response to validate their own "righteousness" and "worth". BTW, Noah was also righteous.

"...all men everywhere are depraved in every age and every corner of the globe."

I don't believe it.

50 posted on 08/19/2012 12:29:46 AM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: RaisingCain
Re: Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

"It specifically cites Christ as the speaker! Do you deny that the Gospel of John is authentic then? Quite convenient to cut out and paste in only what is convenient, and yet you have the audacity to attempt to argue from scripture!

The speaker is John. The speaker John is referring to Christ. The speaker John is nether quoting Christ, nor referring to what He said. The speaker John is simply stating what he believes.

You are the one that cut and pasted this verse alone to support the claim of sola fide. I simply pointed out that it contradicts what God said about the matter.

51 posted on 08/19/2012 12:41:34 AM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: spunkets

“All it means is that one transgression renders a person a lawbreaker, not a breaker of every law.”


And as a lawbreaker, he cannot be saved by the law, but only condemned by it. For whosoever lives by the law will be judged according to the law. But, thankfully, we are dead to the law:

Gal_2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Rom_7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Your faulty logic and dismissal of the scripture did not lead you far enough!


“God said in John 9 that neither the blind man, nor his parents sinned.”


So now you believe in the Gospel of John again? Are you claiming that the blind man and his parents were sinless individuals? The context was referring to the cause of his blindness, whether it was a judgment from God or no. It was not claiming they were perfect. No man is perfect. That is why men are “condemned ALREADY” if they do not believe. They are dead in their sins.


“I don’t believe it.”


Whether you believe it or not is immaterial to what scripture teaches, which I already proved soundly.

Have you ever spoken a lie?

Have you ever committed adultery, even so much as lusting after a woman in your heart, which is adultery in the heart according to Christ?

Have you ever hated anyone?

Have you ever worshiped other gods?

Have you ever stolen anything?

Have you sold all that you belong, given it to the poor, and picked up your cross and followed the way of Christ’s life?

Mat 19:16-26 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? (17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (18) He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, (19) Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (20) The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? (21) Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (22) But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. (23) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. (24) And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. (25) When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? (26) But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


52 posted on 08/19/2012 12:45:16 AM PDT by RaisingCain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: spunkets

“The speaker is John. The speaker John is referring to Christ. The speaker John is nether quoting Christ, nor referring to what He said. The speaker John is simply stating what he believes.

You are the one that cut and pasted this verse alone to support the claim of sola fide. I simply pointed out that it contradicts what God said about the matter.”


Joh 3:10-21 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? (11) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. (12) If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? (13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (20) For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (21) But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

This is Christ speaking from start to finish. And it does not contradict what Christ wrote. I already demonstrated that the one in contradiction is you. Scripture interprets scripture.


53 posted on 08/19/2012 12:48:02 AM PDT by RaisingCain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 51 | View Replies]

To: RaisingCain
"This is Christ speaking from start to finish."

I believe the quote ends at verse 15 and John goes on from that point.

"it does not contradict what Christ wrote."

Taken in and of itself it does. When considered with what I wrote it is simply incomplete and considering all that's written in total, sola fide is contradicted and not supported by the evidence.

"Scripture interprets scripture."

Men interpret Scripture. Scipture has no capacity to interpret, or even to comprehend anything.

54 posted on 08/19/2012 1:12:57 AM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: spunkets

“I believe the quote ends at verse 15 and John goes on from that point.”


What does it matter what you believe when you have no evidence for it? It is irrational to take one scripture, and deny the one right after that, all just to satisfy a pet heresy. Either way, even the scriptures above verse 15 are against you. What do you suppose it means for Christ to be lifted up as the serpent in the wilderness was lifted up?:

Num 21:8-9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. (9) And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

This is the image of Christ crucified, who saves all those who look to Him. If you knew the scriptures, you would have said it was John still speaking up one more verse.


“Taken in and of itself it does. When considered with what I wrote it is simply incomplete and considering all that’s written in total, sola fide is contradicted and not supported by the evidence.”


And, of course, you utterly ignored my response on the matter, just as you ignore the very words of Christ Himself when they do not suit you.

Gal 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


55 posted on 08/19/2012 1:24:08 AM PDT by RaisingCain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies]

To: RaisingCain
"So now you believe in the Gospel of John again? Are you claiming that the blind man and his parents were sinless individuals?"

I never knew them. God said neither the blind man, nor his parents sinned. I believe what God said. If anyone else says they sinned, I will not believe them.

"The context was referring to the cause of his blindness, whether it was a judgment from God or no."

There was no context in the answer regarding whether, or not they sinned. There are 2 answers given, one refers to their "sin" and hte other refers to the reason for the blindness. The answer regarding sin was, per John 9:3, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," the rest of the answer refers to the blindness.

"...as a lawbreaker, he cannot be saved by the law, but only condemned by it. For whosoever lives by the law will be judged according to the law."

Miss that part of the law about loving your neighbor as yourself. Surely those folks that value the things of God and do as those referred to as His sheep in Matt 25 are saved — per the law! And those who "believed" and are referred to as goats therein will not be saved — per the law!

Re: I don't believe it. ("...all men everywhere are depraved in every age and every corner of the globe."

"Whether you believe it or not is immaterial to what scripture teaches, which I already proved soundly."

Matt 12:7 is the law, "If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent." I believe the law is contained in Matt 12:7 and Scripture teaches that is law. BTW, proof only applies to mathematics, all other things are based on evidence. Sola fide is contradicted by the evidence and so is the depravity nonsense.

56 posted on 08/19/2012 1:54:34 AM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: spunkets

“There was no context in the answer regarding whether, or not they sinned. There are 2 answers given, one refers to their “sin” and hte other refers to the reason for the blindness. The answer regarding sin was, per John 9:3, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” the rest of the answer refers to the blindness.”


Your ability to hallucinate is profound. Christ was responding directly to His apostle’s question on the source of His blindness. This is the same Christ who in other parts said, ‘Why callest thou me good? Only God is good.” And there are quite a few other scriptures from Christ that make the point very clear.


“Miss that part of the law about loving your neighbor as yourself. Surely those folks that value the things of God and do as those referred to as His sheep in Matt 25 are saved — per the law! And those who “believed” and are referred to as goats therein will not be saved — per the law!”


And Christ came to fulfill the law:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Because men are not righteous by their own works, but are made so by the grace of God. That is why it was necessary to lift Christ up as the serpent in the wilderness was lifted by Moses. You abuse the scriptures when you pick and choose which ones you will believe. Scripture interprets scripture. You cannot ignore 99.99% of it to cling to one. Otherwise, you deny it all.


“Matt 12:7 is the law, “If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.” I believe the law is contained in Matt 12:7 and Scripture teaches that is law. BTW, proof only applies to mathematics, all other things are based on evidence. Sola fide is contradicted by the evidence and so is the depravity nonsense.”


Proof applies to all arguments over truth. I notice you did not acknowledge any of the scriptures which directly contradict you, and you did not answer my question about the sins you have committed and Christ’s own statement that if you would be perfect, sell all that you have and follow Him. You are most certainly damned in the sight of God if you are relying on your own perfection to get into heaven.


57 posted on 08/19/2012 2:12:56 AM PDT by RaisingCain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: RaisingCain
"What do you suppose it means for Christ to be lifted up as the serpent in the wilderness was lifted up?:"

It means to lift up those things He values, so that all can see, know and understand what it is that folks should value to gain salvation.

"And, of course, you utterly ignored my response on the matter"

No. None of the evidence you presented supports sola fide in consideration of the fundamental statements from God Himself on the matter. As I pointed out, God demands more.

58 posted on 08/19/2012 2:18:56 AM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: spunkets

“It means to lift up those things He values, so that all can see, know and understand what it is that folks should value to gain salvation.”


Oh okay, so it has nothing to do with dying on the cross for the sins of mankind, being resurrected, and ascending to the right hand of the Father till all enemies are made His footstool. To believe this you have to deny not only a great deal of what Christ Himself said, but that of the Apostles and even the Old Testament prophecies regarding what Messiah would do! You are no Christian.


59 posted on 08/19/2012 2:25:55 AM PDT by RaisingCain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: RaisingCain

K.


60 posted on 08/19/2012 2:48:24 AM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 201-220 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson