Posted on 08/14/2012 7:14:46 PM PDT by Phinneous
The Jewish belief in angels goes as far back as the Book of Genesis, where we read about angels calling out to Abraham at the binding of Isaac, angels appearing in Jacob's dream, Jacob fighting with an angel, and many more accounts of angelic activity.
(Excerpt) Read more at chabad.org ...
Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it...Just to expand on what you said, which I am not sure, if I totally follow you but would you say that Judaism is first based on intellect knowing the truth of Torah first, being part of a cultural community as being born into *Judaism* and then experiencing GOD by doing good deeds which I believe you call a mitzvah?
Something we are seeing today, is so many of the seas fish dying, and birds dying in mid-air and the scripture of Hosea
4 comes to mind...
“There is no faithfulness, no love,
no acknowledgment of God in the land.
2 There is only cursing,[a] lying and murder,
stealing and adultery;
they break all bounds,
and bloodshed follows bloodshed.
3 Because of this the land dries up,
and all who live in it waste away;
the beasts of the field, the birds in the sky
and the fish in the sea are swept away.
My understanding of this scripture, is that it is the lack of *Faith* in GOD which causes this to happen and I am not sure if the lack of human intellect in GOD can cause this?
NO God does NOT know the number, IF He did there would be NO reason to have this flesh age.
How does that square with Isaiah 46:10 ?
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
YHvH appears over 7000 times I'm afraid that is based on a very superficial reading
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
of an English translation that masks the NAME of G-d :
YHvH yod, hey, vav, hey Gen 49:18 "For Your salvation I wait, YHvH.
לישועתך קויתי יהוה
in the Holy WORD of G-d
as His NAME.
What do you make of Rabbi Kaduri’s pronouncement before his death?
The blindness will end when I think he was on to something.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
all the gentiles be come in.
I agree that we need to believe we have free will, otherwise, this planet would be a real mess.
Do you believe God has free will? ... He tells us He made us in His image ...
Yes, IIRC, quantum mechanic theory has shown that time can go both directions at that level of the physical, we are limited in our realm by 2nd law of thermodynamics to one direction of time. But G-d would not be, so being outside the physical limitations of size and dimensions, G-d can experience all time simultaneously.
Do I believe God already knew that Satan would rebel? How could He not? Do you actually think God could be surprised by anything that happens? Does He then have to go to Plan B or C or D...? If all of life and time was unknowable and just random happening as it is happening, then how could God prove Himself to the Israelites by prophecy? God told them that the chief way they could know who was and was not a prophet of the Lord would be by what they said would happen, actually did happen exactly like they said it would. Now, how could God tell anyone things that would happen IN THE FUTURE unless He already knew? As He told them, no false god or idol could do that and ONLY the true God has that genuine attribute.
As I said, this is something that our mere, finite human minds do not have the capacity to comprehend. Scripture is rampant with words that speak to Almighty God's infinite and unsearchable wisdom and knowledge. That He knows the end from the beginning demonstrates that He is outside of what we call time. He is not bound by it, constrained by it, hindered by it. When you say, "Love is not an emotion that can be ordered, bought, sold, or commanded", I agree and I do not see the connection between God's omniscience and His "ordering" of love. We love Him because He FIRST loved us. We cannot limit by our own limited thinking why or how God does what God does. All we can know is what He tells us in His word and by the confirmation of His word within our hearts that His Spirit illuminates.
AND according to Paul some were chosen/elected before the foundation of this flesh age. AND by Paul's own life story he was NOT allow to follow his free will of ending Christianity.... Stephen was stoned because of describing the Christian 'history'!!!
Paul wrote in Ephesians chapter 1:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
But is he really saying that, "some were chosen/elected before the foundation of this flesh age", or is he saying that God predetermined that those who would come to saving faith would be "holy and without blame" and "adopted" into the family of God and conformed to the image of Christ? I read this and other verses not so much that God has already predetermined who would or would not be saved - as if no one has a choice - but that He KNOWS all that would and has determined that all that do ARE set apart in Christ to the praise of His glory. Again, God is outside of time and that is the ONLY way that He could know us before the foundation of the earth, know all our days before there was a one of them and work ALL things to the good and His glory. When you say Paul was not "allowed" to follow his anti-Christian ways, I disagree. Of course Paul had the choice just like Mary had a choice in bearing the Savior, just as we all have the choice to choose God or reject Him. Paul was God's chosen, "he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15). But if Paul refused, he would NOT have been God's chosen one - he was not FORCED to be what God planned for him to be.
I think the problem is that we try to understand things we don't have the ability to understand and those things we accept by faith because God SAID it.
5.56mm
This is what verse 10 says..Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure:'
My comment was NO God does NOT know the number, IF He did there would be NO reason to have this flesh age. As per Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 the only named entity to have been judged to death is the devil. There is a numbered fallen angles that were first recorded attempting to mess up the linage to Christ described in Genesis 6. And while they are not named there is a number given in Revelation that as Christ said would one last time allowed to do their thing before the second return of Christ. Matthew 24.
Ezekiel writes in the last few chapters much detail as to what will take place before 'judgment day'. AND as is Written in John 3:16 - 21.
I do not find Isaiah 46:10 in any opposition or contrary to what I said. I do find it interesting there are three time signatures noted 'end' from 'beginning' and from 'ancient times'.
Not everyone that God created loved - loves Him, else we would NOT have had to have this flesh age. Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
I am guessing that Christians believe that Christ existed before He came to this flesh age as a babe? Seems like a natural 'guess', and as stated here that the 'children' us existed prior to our conception. AND that is what Paul is referencing when the words 'foundation of this world', is giving a time signature, because the words are actually a verb meaning the casting down - overthrow. AND Genesis 1:2 describes what happened to this earth in that rebellion or casting down - overthrow, before this flesh age began.
We Christians know with certainty one thing, who is the victor when this 'mess' all gets sorted out. But as any loving Father/Mother have for their own flesh children it would take irrefutable proof to 'destroy' a child. Likewise, the Creator requires His own proof without question to destroy those that have no natural love for and of Him....
To say He already knows, who has that 'love' and who does not without total and complete understanding of WHO He literally is, says that God deliberately created 'evil', and I do not for one minute believe that is our Heavenly Father.
To me it is quite obvious that given the scenario of the Garden of Eden, there was Plan B.
Paul wrote in Ephesians chapter 1: 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. But is he really saying that, "some were chosen/elected before the foundation of this flesh age", or is he saying that God predetermined that those who would come to saving faith would be "holy and without blame" and "adopted" into the family of God and conformed to the image of Christ? I read this and other verses not so much that God has already predetermined who would or would not be saved - as if no one has a choice - but that He KNOWS all that would and has determined that all that do ARE set apart in Christ to the praise of His glory. Again, God is outside of time and that is the ONLY way that He could know us before the foundation of the earth, know all our days before there was a one of them and work ALL things to the good and His glory. When you say Paul was not "allowed" to follow his anti-Christian ways, I disagree. Of course Paul had the choice just like Mary had a choice in bearing the Savior, just as we all have the choice to choose God or reject Him. Paul was God's chosen, "he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15). But if Paul refused, he would NOT have been God's chosen one - he was not FORCED to be what God planned for him to be. I think the problem is that we try to understand things we don't have the ability to understand and those things we accept by faith because God SAID it.
The words 'foundation of this world' is a verb that means casting down - overthrow. Paul says before the casting down - overthrow some stayed loyal to the Heavenly Father. That is what makes them 'chosen/elected' to carry forth God's plan through this flesh age. And we can know some of them by who were chosen to put down the WORD of God.
I keep hearing/reading some write/say that God is outside of time, which makes NO sense to me. Because of what Peter wrote in IIPeter 3, whole chapter. Peter wrote IIPeter 3:5 For 'this' they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of OLD, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (This is not talking about Noah's flood but referencing Genesis 1:2.)
6 Whereby the world that then *was* perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth which are *now*, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 BUT, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,
that one day is with the LORD as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
This is not outside of time it is the ultimate perfect time setter and keeper.
Generally children 12 and under.
Well, obviously not everyone God created will love Him - I never said any differently. As to us having to have "this flesh age", I can only say two things:
1) This flesh age is the time of man existing upon earth starting with Adam and Eve and ending at the Great White Throne Judgment after which God creates a new heaven and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness (Revelation 21).
2) What is the name of the religion you follow? or is it part of just your thoughts?
I am guessing that Christians believe that Christ existed before He came to this flesh age as a babe? Seems like a natural 'guess', and as stated here that the 'children' us existed prior to our conception.
Yes, Christians DO believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is from everlasting to everlasting. He always was and always will be as the second person of the Trinity. He became a man - took on the form of a man - at the incarnation. It is spoken of in Hebrews 2 as well as several other passages. But, NO, I do not agree that "us" existed before conception nor from eternity simply because we are NOT God. We are created beings and that means we had a time where we began. The Son of God did not have a beginning. We are most certainly different. Jesus "shared" in our humanity so that his sinless life could be made a propitiation for our sins. By His death, he has redeemed us from an eternal death - separation from God for eternity.
AND that is what Paul is referencing when the words 'foundation of this world', is giving a time signature, because the words are actually a verb meaning the casting down - overthrow. AND Genesis 1:2 describes what happened to this earth in that rebellion or casting down - overthrow, before this flesh age began.
When Paul spoke of God choosing us before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4) it is NOT speaking about some preexistence of our souls but of God's foreknowledge and His foreordaining of what we were to become "holy and without blame before him in love". What you are saying sounds a little like the Mormon doctrine of preexisting souls that take on human form from "Father God" - who is populating the earth and who, at one time was also a man and is now exalted. Are you a Mormon?
We Christians know with certainty one thing, who is the victor when this 'mess' all gets sorted out. But as any loving Father/Mother have for their own flesh children it would take irrefutable proof to 'destroy' a child. Likewise, the Creator requires His own proof without question to destroy those that have no natural love for and of Him....
God knows the heart of every person, no outward proof need convince Him who are or are not His children. We are born again into the family of God when we accept the gift of eternal life by faith in Jesus Christ.
To say He already knows, who has that 'love' and who does not without total and complete understanding of WHO He literally is, says that God deliberately created 'evil', and I do not for one minute believe that is our Heavenly Father.
To say He already knows is stating the truth of what God, himself, has affirmed by His word. As for God creating evil, I would say he created the possibility for mankind and angels to chose evil. Giving of a free will allows that some will choose to reject the good. But we also know that "what is meant for evil, God meant for good", so nothing can supersede God's perfect will. I don't claim to understand how that happens, I just believe that is what God has said.
To me it is quite obvious that given the scenario of the Garden of Eden, there was Plan B.
I disagree. There is no need for a Plan B if you work all things according to your perfect will.
You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, “You did not make me”? Can the pot say to the potter, “You know nothing”? (Isaiah 29:16)
“Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘The potter has no hands’? Woe to the one who says to a father, ‘What have you begotten?’ or to a mother, ‘What have you brought to birth?’ (Isaiah 45:9-10)
When were all souls . sons of God created? Moses in writing down the Genesis creation account for the Heavenly Father said NOT one Word about the when of the creation of the souls. Yes the soul existed as per the Adam was not alive until the 'breath of life' means soul was breathed into his nostrils.
But yet planted right there in the Scripture is stated that in the midst of the Garden was the 'tree of life' and the 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil'. So the 'devil' who this tree of the knowledge of good and evil symbolizes existed before the formation of the Adam's flesh body.
I am Christian. Christ said take ye heed I have foretold you all things.... before one WORD of the so called NewTestament was ever placed on animal skins or plant fibers.
IT was a very tough discovery to find out that there is no mention of an apple orchard that Eve served up that sinful apple to her husband that I was taught in my childhood. So as I 'read' the WORD, I began to make a check list of all the lies, untruths, and deceptions I kept coming across that has infiltrated most of modern 'divisions' in Christianity.
Oh, lest I sound 'vain', I have discovered that I maybe have one thread of the whole cloth that is contained within God's HOLY WORD. So I don't have a particular denomination I am attached. AND God did give me a brain and He does expect it to be used.
Yes, Christians DO believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is from everlasting to everlasting. He always was and always will be as the second person of the Trinity. He became a man - took on the form of a man - at the incarnation. It is spoken of in Hebrews 2 as well as several other passages. But, NO, I do not agree that "us" existed before conception nor from eternity simply because we are NOT God. We are created beings and that means we had a time where we began. The Son of God did not have a beginning. We are most certainly different. Jesus "shared" in our humanity so that his sinless life could be made a propitiation for our sins. By His death, he has redeemed us from an eternal death - separation from God for eternity.
So is there a 'soul' manufacturing plant in heaven that every time an egg is fertilized God plugs in a freshly created soul?
Paul repeats for Christians what God had to say about Jacob and Esau. Jacob I loved and Esau I hated... Paul say that Esau was hated even before he was born having done good or bad.... paraphrasing of course, but IF required I will provide the Scripture from the so called old and new if necessary. Jeremiah was told that God knew him before he was ever placed in his mother's womb... Impossible to know something that did not already exist. Now if God knew Jeremiah before he was placed in his mother's womb, God also know every other soul He created.
This flesh age really does have so many blinded and held down by gravity.
When Paul spoke of God choosing us before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4) it is NOT speaking about some preexistence of our souls but of God's foreknowledge and His foreordaining of what we were to become "holy and without blame before him in love". What you are saying sounds a little like the Mormon doctrine of preexisting souls that take on human form from "Father God" - who is populating the earth and who, at one time was also a man and is now exalted. Are you a Mormon?
No I am not a Mormon. I am not interested in what a new age prophet wrote, IT takes all my available time to search and study those holy prophets that Christ and Paul continually quoted. How many times in the 'NEW' is the phrase 'foundation of the world' used? And by WHOM? It is a time signature of a specific event, and sometimes in the form of a verb, other times as a noun. Ephesians 1:4... Paul uses it specifically as a verb. Check it out, see what Strong's says.
I disagree. There is no need for a Plan B if you work all things according to your perfect will. You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, “You did not make me”? Can the pot say to the potter, “You know nothing”? (Isaiah 29:16) “Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘The potter has no hands’? Woe to the one who says to a father, ‘What have you begotten?’ or to a mother, ‘What have you brought to birth?’ (Isaiah 45:9-10)
I am NOT arguing with the Potter.
No
No
Do you believe love can be compelled?
When were all souls . sons of God created? Moses in writing down the Genesis creation account for the Heavenly Father said NOT one Word about the when of the creation of the souls. Yes the soul existed as per the Adam was not alive until the 'breath of life' means soul was breathed into his nostrils.
Let's be sure that we are talking about the same things here. The "souls" of mankind are different than the angels. The angels have ALL been created already and no more are being made. Long ago, they made a choice for Almighty God or rebellion with the angel now called Satan. The third of the angels that rebelled were cast out of heaven by the two-thirds remaining led by Michael, the archangel. The "fallen" angels were cast to earth - so some form of an "earth" already existed, right? There is conjecture about what Genesis 1:2, "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.", means. It is this state where God "begins" creation of the world we know. That is a WHOLE 'nuther thread by itself, but may explain how the earth is so old and what part dinosaurs played and when.
The Scriptures speak of the term "sons of God" and it is used both for angels as well as people. But, as for the sons of God being preexistent souls "waiting" for bodies to indwell on earth, that is NOT something taught in Scripture but IS an idea Joseph Smith came up with which is why I ask if you were a Mormon. Glad to hear you are not snagged in that cult. As to when the soul of a human being begins, we go back to the first man, Adam. God, we read in Genesis 2:7, "And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." So, it seems clear to me that until God breathed the breath of life into the lifeless body of Adam, he was NOT a living soul. It is only AFTER God does this that Adam BECAME a living soul. The Hebrew word for "breathed" is naphach and actually just means: to blow. So God blew into Adam's nostrils the "breath of life". The "breath" is a feminine noun in Hebrew, nĕshamah and means "breath" or "spirit". He breathed the breath of LIFE, where life is chay, a word meaning "living, lively, active" "a living thing". Without the "breath of life" ALL living things cease to BE living things, agreed? And man became a living "soul". This word in Hebrew, nephesh, is interesting because it means:
b) living being
c) living being (with life in the blood)
d) the man himself, self, person or individual
e) seat of the appetites
f) seat of emotions and passions P> g) activity of mind
h) activity of the will
i) activity of the character
So, basically, everything that makes a person ALIVE is what a living soul means. As to all these pre-existent disembodied souls floating around in heaven waiting to be placed in a human body, that is again NOT something Scripture teaches anywhere. Human life only begins when the human life begins - at fertilization of the sperm and egg. A new, never before existing, totally unique human life begins. Personally, I believe that is when the soul is also created. Something that never before came to be has come to be. There is no "'soul' manufacturing plant in heaven", only a creator God that breaths the breath of life and creates a living soul.
But yet planted right there in the Scripture is stated that in the midst of the Garden was the 'tree of life' and the 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil'. So the 'devil' who this tree of the knowledge of good and evil symbolizes existed before the formation of the Adam's flesh body.
Not sure where you are getting the idea that the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" symbolizes the Devil, but it is NOT saying that. It was AFTER God formed Adam, that He planted a garden. Genesis 2:8,9 says:
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
And in Genesis 2:15-17, we learn:
And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Both of trees were planted in the garden and it was ONLY the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that Adam was forbidden to eat. ALL the other ones he could eat of. The devil existed before this garden did and before Adam was created. We only know that AFTER Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the forbidden tree, that the "death" God warned them about was a physical as well as spiritual death. At that very moment, their physical bodies started to age and deteriorate. They were cast out of the garden lest they eat of the Tree of Life, remember, and an angel was set guard over it. They could not eat from this tree because:
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. (Gen. 3:22-24).
We don't hear about this Tree of Life until Revelation (the last book of the Bible) speaks about it. This tree is in the midst of the new Jerusalem during the millennial reign of Jesus Christ on earth. It is used for keeping those alive for the thousand years in their human bodies that come to worship Christ. In Revelation 2:7, is the first mention:
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Then again in Revelation 22:2 and verse 14-
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Hope that clears it up for you about those two special trees. As to why people came up with the idea of the fruit being an "apple", we can only guess they made a guess. Certainly, apples are perfectly fine to eat and are not called a sin. It doesn't matter what kind of fruit it was, does it? Sure, there are more important things people make up about the Bible, that's why it is important to do what you are doing - study the Word of God, pray for the Holy Spirit to open your heart and mind to understand. It doesn't hurt at all to find a good Bible-teaching church where you can fellowship with others and learn in an environment where you are cared about and loved. There have been many faithful and God-loving Christians that have gone before us who have devoted their lives to learning the Scriptures and there are many great books out there that can assist you in your journey to knowledge. I will pray for you to find that faith home.
No
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