Posted on 08/05/2012 12:37:13 PM PDT by Colofornian
I never thought it would be me. Yet there I was, sitting across the bed from my husband while he told me that he no longer had a testimony that the gospel was true.
...my husband just didn’t believe in the gospel anymore. He didn’t even know if God really existed.
SNIP
This wasn’t supposed to happen to me—not my husband, not my marriage. In my naiveté, when I had read or heard of accounts where a spouse turned away from the Church, I thought, “Thank goodness that would never happen to our temple marriage...."
...Despite the abundance of spiritual experiences that we had shared since our courtship, the daily personal and couple prayers, the faithful fulfillment of every calling, full tithes, generous fast offerings...it was gone. My husband admitted that he no longer believed. He had no desire to attend church beyond helping me with the kids. And he no longer wanted to pay tithing...
...The one desire I had maintained stronger than any other in my life was to have an eternal marriage...I had done everything I could in my life to live worthily, to marry with unmistakable surety, to keep my covenants, to attend the temple, and to dedicate my life and my home to the Lord. Would Heavenly Father really deny me the righteous desire I longed for the most, when I had done everything He asked to attain it?
SNIP
Initially, I was upset that I had been deprived of the spiritual blessings I had sought so diligently to obtain....the opportunity to seek a celestial marriage is still right in front of me...I have realized that either I can focus on what my husband’s choices have taken from our temple marriage, or I can strive even more to develop a celestial relationship with him...
(Excerpt) Read more at lds.org ...
Now that's creepy. Don't you let anyone say something about Mormonism without you sticking your nose into it?
Now that's creepy. Don't you let anyone say something about Mormonism without you sticking your nose into it?
Is this on the religious forum?
Is the aim to point out Romney’s religious heresy?
Mormonism WAS heretical prior to Romney's run...
...Mormonism is STILL heretical during Romney's run...
...If Romney is elected, it STILL will be heretical...
...If Romney loses, guess what? It STILL will be heretical.
I posted on Mormonism's heresies BEFORE Romney's run...
...I actively posted on Mormonism's heresies DURING Romney's 2007 & early 2008 run...
...I actively posted on Mormonism's heresies when Romney was NOT in campaign mode (Feb 2008-->Latter 2010)
...I have actively posted on Mormonism's heresies when Romney has been in campaign mode since then...
...God willing, whether Romney wins or loses, I will continue to express components about Mormonism in the venues available to me...
What a tragic, paralyzing mishmash of legalism. No grace, no hope. Very sad.
I agree. Mormonism is heretical. I was attacked for this in the 2008 race. Any presidential candidate who cannot wrestle free from such a verifiable heresy is thoroughly tainted. Besides that, he’s a lying, baby-killing statist.
[CITATION NEEDED]
“muawiyah made it personal. I was merely responding to his personal attack. Kind of selective in our taking offense, aren’t we? “
Oh, OK. As long as someone else made you do it, I’m sure the Religion Mod won’t mind that at all... :-)
Also, when one person in a sidebar has been warned - all posters in the sidebar should consider themselves warned. The principle is that "two wrongs do not make a right."
Click on my profile page for more guidelines to the Religion Forum.
Nobody cares anyway.
Sounded like a very good story to me, it don,t matter what religion it is called it is the faith that counts, this woman knows what God expects from her.
4
That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5
To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
It's the stuff that MORMONism 'expects' from her; that is driving her nuts.
Sounded like a very good story to me, it don,t matter what religion it is called it is the faith that counts, this woman knows what God expects from her.
It’s the stuff that MORMONism ‘expects’ from her; that is driving her nuts.
But, no matter how strong a person's 'faith' is; if it is placed on the wrong thing, it won't be effective at all.
...it don,t matter what religion it is called it is the faith that counts...
But, no matter how strong a person’s ‘faith’ is; if it is placed on the wrong thing, it won’t be effective at all.
Faith is both a strong and a delicate thing. At the outset, if we are honest with ourselves we recognize that our religious faith is just that: FAITH. We have no proof of what we believe, of course, or else it would not be faith.
My faith is strongest in the most elementary aspects of what I believe. I believe that there is God. Even this is a bridge of faith too far, but the vast majority believe in at least some Supreme Being. I believe that God is good and fair, and that He desires, but does not force, our love for Him. I believe in Christ as my Savior (and my need for a Savior, perhaps the least challenging faith belief), largely based on the behavior of the apostles and contemporary followers of Christ after His death and resurrection, who underwent severe punishment and deaths for what they believed.
I believe in the Bible, but am not convinced of its literal truth in all aspects. Nevertheless, I believe that all of the Bible has something to teach us.
After that, denominational tenets are sometimes harder to take on faith, and I may be convinced that some are right and some are wrong.
I do believe that if we don’t challenge our faith by examination it can become very weak indeed. That said, I recognize that my faith is MY faith, and others believe otherwise. I may disagree, but I respect their faith (and I expect respect, not compliance, with my faith by others).
All RIGHT!
We be on the same wavelength now!
Unfortunately, there's a few things here that could be inferred by the reader...which sounds like you might be implying the following:
1. That faith is somehow against reason.
2. OR...that faith is somehow a free-floating ethereal thing (outthere somewhere);
3. That the Christian faith somehow falls outside history. (Sorry, but Christ's death and resurrection talks about a man who claimed to be God in time & space -- who died, and whose resurrection would have made "Local News @ Five" had broadcasting been around then)
4. That somehow the testimony that Jesus appeared to about 500 (1 Corinthians 15:6) is irrelevant...the eye-witness testimony is that (a) Jesus visited the apostles (John 21); and (b) for 5-6 weeks popped up to meet/teach from the Mount of Olives, near Bethany (Luke 24:50-51; Acts 1:3-11).
Sorry, NCLaw...but the CHRISTIAN faith is in a person (Jesus Christ). Such faith doesn't stay "bottled up" within a person; it gets transferred. Toward the object of that faith (Jesus Christ). And Jesus is not simply a free-floating divinity "out there" somewhere. Jesus Christ lived and died and rose again in a time-space continuum. We know he was born -- probably 4 B.C...likely about April 25 (NOT Dec. 25)...and died about 33 years later. That means that the Christian faith IS rooted in history. And history can be tested from a variety of angles, most notably the eye-witness history and the consequences of Jesus Christ on the lives of His apostles and eventual followers!
Note what author Kenneth Samples has to say about Jesus' resurrection:
"The story's natural details conform well to what is known historically. Far from being a myth or legend, the report of the empty tomb...
[1]...has a very early date... [meaning it wasn't a tale that simply arose a generation later]
[2]...fits with archaeological data (burial customs, construction of tombs, timing of ceremonial events)...
[3]...and was never challenged, let alone refuted, by the contemporary enemies and critics of Christianity.
[4]In addition, the Jews or Romans could have immediately squashed Christianity by producing Christ's body. The disciples could not have proclaimed a bodily resurrection if the body could be brought forth. [Kenneth Samples, Without a Doubt, Baker books, 2004, p. 138]
What key reports re: the empty tomb am I referencing?
(The following is a paraphrase of Do the Resurrection Accounts Conflict and What Proof is There that Jesus Rose from the Dead? by John Ankerberg and Dr. John Weldon):
We know Joseph took the body of Christ/wrapped it/placed it in the tomb (Matt 27:59; Mk 15:46; Lk 23:53); and Nicodemus assisted him (John 19:39).
We know Roman soldiers were assigned to guard the tomb (Matt 27:62-66; 28:11-15) @ the request of Jewish leaders (Matt 27:27, 65); early church writers Justin, Tertullian & a few apocryphal accounts also mention this) [You don't post guards to guard an empty tomb, right?].
And we know from history that the penalty for a Roman soldier deserting his post was death (Polybius, among other early historians, noted the strictness of Roman camp discipline).
This place of burial was common knowledge -- observed by both Jesus' friends as well as His enemies (Matt 27:61, 66).
We know the "extremely large" stone (Mark 16:4) put in front of the tomb was marked with a royal seal to safeguard it -- and that these stones weighed 1-2 tons.
We know Jewish authorities didn't question the report of the guards that the tomb was empty (Matt 28:11-15)
"When even your enemies at both the immediate time of the event and for two thousand years afterwards are forced to acknowledge that the tomb was empty, the case for the Resurrection becomes more than credible. Again, no one anywhere at any time ever doubted the empty tomb:
'A.M. Ramsey writes: ...Paul Althaus states that the resurrection 'could not have been maintained in Jerusalem for a single day, for a single hour, if the temptiness of the tomb had not been established as a fact for all concerned.'"
"Paul L. Maier concludes: '...no shred of evidence has yet been discovered in literary sources, epigraphy, or archaeology that would disprove this statement.' (Ankerberg & Weldon, p. 122)
Bottom-line: There's enough historical eyewitness testimony about Jesus' resurrection. (Remember: Eye-witness testimony has been "enough" to send many men to their deaths)
Well, allow me to elaborate here...'cause by Jesus' death on the cross, God already judged sin -- and His Son suffered the punishment for that sin.
HENCE, AT LEAST TWO TYPES OF JUDGMENT: One past; One future
The Bible points to at least two types of judgment. One future -- which we will all undergo. Yet based upon John 3:18, 1 John 5:10-13, & 1 Cor. 3:10-15, I can tell you it still won't be the basis for whether a person is granted entrance into heaven.
We need to ask ourselves: What is the basis of whether or how God will forgive our personal sins?
I think we tend to "miss the boat" in misunderstanding two dimensions of judgment: One dimension is our sin nature and our individual acts of sin--including our sins of omission. The other dimension is our works.
We can't exchange the two:
Works don't get us into heaven;
and sin doesn't in and of itself keep us from heaven.
We're ALL sinners;
but not all sinners are trusting Christ to atone for their sin -- hence some, are either trying to work their way into God's eternal presence (like temple Mormons); or, think God will somehow grade on a curve -- also a sort of works-righteousness faulty scheme.
THE PAST JUDGMENT ON THE CROSS FOR OUR SIN
For our sin, Heavenly Father fully judged Jesus on the cross. When Jesus said "It is finished" on the cross, He used a phrase that in His day was a financial phrase meaning, "paid in full." Our debt -- our sin -- was paid in full. If we try to pay for our sin/atonement, Heavenly Father rejects it as being laced with unrighteousness (Is. 64:6).
And as Judge, both the Father and Jesus could claim, “that's double jeopardy” if we try to pay for what Jesus already paid for on the cross.
Jesus solidly reinforced this when He said: 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned ALREADY because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (John 3:18)
I'm saying that God the Father judged all sin on the cross, which has already occurred. Jesus' righteousness becomes our righteousness by substitution (1 Cor. 1:30), transferred by way of faith & His grace-gift (Eph. 2:8-9). In the 10 Commandments movie, those who were saved were saved by the blood of the Lamb. Yet they still needed to transfer faith that it had salvific power.
THE FUTURE JUDGMENT OF THE CHRISTIAN
But when people talk about God judging the stewardship of our works in the future, they are correct. Note this passage:
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's WORK. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, but only as one escaping through the flames. (1 Cor. 3:10-15)
Do we see that last sentence? Even if our work is burned up, we can "suffer loss" in heaven -- yet, Paul assures us that "he himself WILL BE saved." (Paul goes on to describe that like somebody pulled out of a burning building at the last second...by Jesus Christ the Deliverer and Rescuer).
So, our works will get quite a "grilling" of judgment from God. But Paul makes it clear in this passage that even when our measured works burn up as nothing -- as God's fiery judgment takes a match to them like fuel, we ourselves "will still be saved." (1 Cor. 3:15)
So the righteousness of Jesus is our free pass into heaven. (1 Cor. 1:30). Entrust your life to Him (that is more than just mouthing a few words). But simultaneously, be prepared that once you get there based solely upon your faith in Christ, that He will take a fine-toothcomb to our works -- and judge them. And that it's possible to still become saved -- and still "suffer loss." (None of us should want to suffer such loss in heaven -- whatever that turns out to be)
May I be so bold as to suggest that perhaps you misunderstand the Christian gospel?
Do you realize right after John 3:16...comes these two verses: 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. (John 3:18-19)
IOW, God already has judged our sin. The verdict has already been rendered...and the punishment was taken out upon Christ on the cross.
That's the Christian gospel: That we don't have to to wonder about our eventual destination. 1 John 5:11-13 also expresses how one can have assurance of salvation. (And in John 3:36 and 5:24, Jesus expresses eternal life as something we have -- present tense -- not will have...future tense). The reason for that is because when Jesus Christ defined eternal life, He defined it as “knowing” (a relationship) between His Father and Himself and His people.
We need to ask ourselves: What is the basis of whether or how God will forgive our personal sins?
I think we tend to "miss the boat" in misunderstanding two dimensions of judgment: One dimension is our sin nature and our individual acts of sin--including our sins of omission. The other dimension is our works.
We can't exchange the two. For our sin, Heavenly Father fully judged Jesus on the cross (as I said; this is past tense). When Jesus said "It is finished" on the cross, He used a phrase that in His day was a financial phrase meaning, "paid in full." Our debt -- our sin -- was paid in full. If we try to pay for our sin/atonement, Heavenly Father rejects it as being laced with unrighteousness (Is. 64:6).
And as Judge, both the Father and Jesus could claim, “that's double jeopardy” if we try to pay for what Jesus already paid for on the cross.
But when people talk about God judging the stewardship of our works in the future, they are correct. Note this passage:
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's WORK. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, but only as one escaping through the flames. (1 Cor. 3:10-15)
Do we see that last sentence? Even if our work is burned up, we can "suffer loss" in heaven -- yet, Paul assures us that "he himself WILL BE saved." (Paul goes on to describe that like somebody pulled out of a burning building at the last second...by Jesus Christ the Deliverer and Rescuer).
So, our works will get quite a "grilling" of judgment from God -- future tense. But Paul makes it clear in this passage that even when our measured works burn up as nothing -- as God's fiery judgment takes a match to them like fuel, we ourselves "will still be saved." (1 Cor. 3:15)
So the righteousness of Jesus is our free pass into heaven. (1 Cor. 1:30). Entrust your life to Him (that is more than just mouthing a few words). But simultaneously, be prepared that once you get there based solely upon your faith in Christ, that He will take a fine-toothcomb to our works -- and judge them. And that it's possible to still become saved -- and still "suffer loss."
(None of us should want to suffer such loss in heaven -- whatever that turns out to be). If anybody's shooting for trying to show God how "worthy" they are, they are worshiping the wrong God. (The word "worthy" is tied to "worship"; and we are not to either worship or "worthship" ourselves). Our value and worth was shown by Jesus at the cross. He died for us. We are only "worthy" in Him. 'Tis NONE of it is of ourselves.
On top of that, Jesus says we need to be perfect (Matt. 5:48). And if we break one part of the law, we are guilty of all of it (book of James). Therefore we fall short. Our self-worth is never enough. Our only hope is to have our sin be judged according to the perfection of Jesus Christ, which is substituted on our behalf. That's why Paul says Jesus is OUR Righteousness. (1 Cor. 1:30)
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