Iow...the "spokesperson" for the Mormon church didn't tell the "fullness" of truth about Mormon theology.
Well, that was Huckabee in Dec 2007...Then fast-forward 25 months to late January 2010. Rexburg Idaho. Home of BYU-Idaho. An Lds "apostle," M. Russell Ballard, gives an unscripted fireside "convo" with Mormon students. See: Ballard speaks on Mormons in the media from the Rexburg Standard Journal, which covers the talk.
Ballard lets the "cat out of the bag": From the Rexburg article: "You remember Mr. (Mike) Huckabee (who was also vying to be the Republican candidate for president), who among other things said that Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil were brothers?" Ballard asked students. "Remember that? It went all over the media. "Well they are!" Ballard exclaimed to a laughing student body.
Ah, yes. When Mormons accused Huckabee of lying about this -- or worse. They were all offended. Get them behind closed doors, and they laugh about the reality of having Mormon worldviews pegged in the public square.
So, here, we have an Lds general authority conceding that -- to quote him "Well they are!" in reference to the issue of whether they cite "Jesus and the devil are brothers."
Now in case someone views that this information needs to be suppressed...not let it become aired out...or they think that we are overriding realities in our assessments of Mormonism, Elder Ballard concedes at this fireside chatm adding: "But they (the media and nonmembers) don't understand that, because they don't have the (LDS gospel) restoration. They don't understand the spiritual relationship that ... we are all sons and daughters of God, and that Lucifer was one of those and (that) he chose to use his agency in an unrighteous way."
Let's read what some Mormon leaders have had to say?
An LDS "Seventy" named Milton R. Hunter wrote: "The appointment of Jesus to be Saviour of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer, Son of the Morning .... this spirit brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Saviour of Mankind." MILTON R. HUNTER (First Council of 70) The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15, 1958
Brigham Young said: “Who will redeem the earth, who will go forth and make the sacrifice for the earth and all things it contains?” The Eldest Son said: “Here am I”; and then he added, “Send me.” But the second one, which was “Lucifer, Son of the Morning,” said, “Lord, here am I, send me, I will redeem every son and daughter of Adam and Eve that lives on the earth, or that ever goes on the earth.” (Journal of Discourses, pp. 53-54)
As it's indicated in LDS Scripture, Book of Abraham, LDS do indeed believe that Jesus is the "elder brother" of Lucifer, and that Lucifer is also every Mormon's "elder brother."
In 1844, LDS author W.W. Phelps wrote: "And again, we exclaim, O Mormonism! No wonder that Lucifer, son of the morning, the next heir to Jesus Christ, our eldest brother, should fight so hard against his brethren; he lost the glory, the honor, power, and dominion of a God and the knowledge, spirit, authority and keys of the priesthood of the son of God!"
In 1949 this LDS Conference Report features LDS apostle Joseph F. Merrill, who says that Lucifer "is a spirit brother of ours and of our Lord Jesus Christ..." Here's the exact quote:
"Now there is another personality of which I desire to speak, ... that person is Satan, the Devil. But according to our understanding and teaching, Satan is a person with a spirit body, in form like that of all other men. He is a spirit brother of ours and of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is our Elder Brother in the spirit world. The earth was in course of development for the abode of man in mortality. A Redeemer was to be sent down and make it possible for the Father's children to return to him." (LDS Conference Report, April 1949, p. 27)
LDS "Apostle" John A. Widtsoe taught that Jesus is not only the brother of Jesus, but his "elder brother." Exact quote:
"The story of Lucifer is the most terrible example of such apostasy. ... He pitted his own plan and will against the purposes of God. He strove to gain the birthright of his Elder Brother, Jesus the Christ." (Evidences and Reconciliations, p. 209)
Tis true tis true.
But we were told his religon would never be brought up by the fans of mitt...
sadly he is still leaps and bounds better than the alternative.
Well, while henotheism does have a "there's-many-gods-but-we-worship-only-one of them" aspect to it, Mormon theology actually is: "there's-many-gods-but-we-worship-BOTH-Elohim-and-Jesus-which-makes-for-worshiping-those-we-deem-as-TWO-separate-gods"
Also, Mormon theology advocates the worship of other gods besides that...just by others (vs. themselves)...THAT is indeed polytheism...
Besides, Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie, in his book, Mormon Doctrine, couldn't even do simple math about how many gods LDS are to worship!
Q1 How many (true) gods are worshiped in the Bible?
A One according to Jews & Christians
Q2 How many (true) gods are worshiped in the Book of Mormon?
A Two according to the Mormon definition of Heavenly Father and Jesus being two separate gods.
Q3 How many (true) gods are worshiped according to their LDS apostle's "Mormon Doctrine" 1966 book?
A Three according to the Mormon definition of Heavenly Father and Jesus and the Holy Ghost being three separate gods): "Three separate personages--the Father, Son and Holy Ghost--comprise the Godhead...To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only gods we worship." (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 567-577, 1966 edition
* [As in asterisk...a "oh, yeah, wait a minute."]
* (I should have kept reading further down in McConkie's book). McConkie, on p. 848, only emphasizes worshiping two gods: "The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship....No one can worship the Father without also worshiping the Son....It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son" (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 848).
** [a double asterisk as in "Oh, yeah...I should have waited until McConkie circled back around to give a devo @ BYU in 1982]
** McConkie changes his mind by 1982, when he gave that special devo @ BYU 30 years ago (March 2, 1982, "Our Relationship with the Lord.")
Essentially, McConkie wasn't happy with either his "3" god or "2" god worship. So he came up with a kind of 1 1/2-god worship to present to BYU students:
We do NOT worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.
Wow! Even the word "worship" gets twisted and distorted by Mormon general authorities and the "disciples" of Mormon who follow them.
The lds-org denies that Jesus is the Creator, that everything was created BY Him.
Pray they repent of their falsehoods and see the Truth.
None of this has anything to do with whether someone is a good or bad citizen of the US and does not diminish his right as a citizen to hold elective office in this country.
This contradicts a prophesy by the apostle Paul, who highlighted that Jesus is the Ever-Present Master Church-Builder who prevails as the Strong Guardian of a Church that has never fully apostatized are:
Ephesians 3:21: to him [God] be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
The apostle Paul's prophesy here is that ALL generations of the Church would (and have) given God glory, for ever and ever!
Yup...how "inspirational" it is for a POTUS candidate to come along and believe the following...essentially saying..."Yup. I adhere to the 'faith of my fathers.' Will you vote for me in November now?"
Snapshot of Joseph Smith’s Slanderous Invectives vs. Christian Sects |
Mormon Source[Note: Most of these are Mormon ‘scriptures'. In fact, First three rows below are Lds 'scripture' & therefore cannot be rug-swept any more than a Jew might try to take three commandments off of the very tablets of stone Moses brought down from the mountain] |
| “...which of all the sects was right… must join NONE of them, for they were ALL WRONG… those professors were ALL CORRUPT…” | Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price |
| ...“which of all the sects was right…ALL their CREEDS were an ABOMINATION in his sight…they teach for doctrines the commandments of MEN…” | Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price |
| Mormon church the only ‘Christ-sanctioned’ church on earth: “…the foundation of this [Mormon] church…the ONLY true and living church on the face of the whole earth” [Obvious ‘scorched earth’ implication: All other churches are false and dead] | Lds “scripture” Doctrines & Covenants 1:30 |
| Direct question asked of Joseph Smith: 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?" Answer from Lds "prophet" Joseph Smith: 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." | Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119 [Not “scripture” – but still publicly spoken by the Mormon ‘living prophet’ and published by a later Mormon ‘living prophet,’ Joseph Fielding Smith – via a publisher owned by the Mormon church – Deseret News Press, 1938] |
| “In 1952…the first official proselyting plan was sent to missionaries throughout the world…It included seven missionary discussions that emphasized…[four topics, one of them being]…THE APOSTASY and Restoration…” [This makes it 60 years that Mormon church missionaries, now numbering 55,000, have formally emphasized in its training & door to door saturation a priority in bashing the worldwide Christian church as “apostates” (100% AWOL)] | Our Heritage: A Brief History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints p. 116, 1996 |
who cares? I don’t.
Let there be peace on earth. And let it begin with me. Let there be peace on earth. The peace that was meant to be. With God as our father. Brothers all are we.
- Vince Gill, lyrics
OUR Father.–From this we see that we owe our neighbor both love and reverence. We must love our neighbor because we are all brothers, and all men are sons of God, our Father: “For he that loveth not his brother whom he seeth, how can he love God whom he seeth not?” We owe reverence to our neighbor because he is also a child of God: “Have we not all one Father? Hath not one God created us? Why then does everyone of us despise his brother?”
- St. Thomas Aquinas, analyzing The Lord’s Prayer
While I am neither LDS nor a Romney fan, I don’t find the belief under discussion so bizarre that it would affect Romney’s ability to serve as president. Romney is far too liberal for my tastes, but it’s his liberalism and not his LDS beliefs that disturb me. I know quite a few Mormons who are at least as conservative as I am.
Some of the classic 2007 FR threads we had featured a Flying Inman poster, Fast Coyote. Fast Coyote would occasionally "don" the garb of one who was a "god in embryo" about to raise himself up by the bootstraps as a "god" and would begin posting as if he was earnest in his readiness to be/become divine.
He would humorously describe some of the details of that transition.
Well, had Fast Coyote seriously believed what he was describing on those threads, ya better believe he would have only been making himself open to such mockery.
The problem is that for the first time in the history of our nation we have a POTUS candidate who openly beliefs the "faith of his fathers" -- which teaches that they are indeed "gods-in-embryo" about to transition into full-blown godhood.
What would be openly mocked if Mike Huckabee or Hillary Clinton believed this in 2008 is "ho hummed" by supposed Christian voters who say they oppose idolatry.
As A Roman Catholic, the original Christian Religion, I feel that Mormons have done nothing to harm me. They do not force people to follow their religion and they do good things in the community for both their fellow Mormons and to those not affiliated with their religion.
Romney is also a damn sight better than Obam, so I don't care if he was a dirt worshiper, he will still get my vote, more as a vote against O’Bumbler!
Well, the Bible DOES talk about those who are faithful with small things on earth may inherit greater responsibilities later. But it in no way talks about living forever in the presence of God the Father as linked to merit badges...as if "works-righteousness" was the ticket for that. Yet THAT is what Mormon theology teaches.
Mormons think of grace as primarily future-tense due to Book of Mormon passages like 2 Nephi 25:23 and Moroni 10:32...as mentioned in a previous post...it's like some after-burner will kick in to both "save" the Mormon and lead them to perfection.
The apostle Paul destroyed that nonsense:
...the gospel, by the power of God who has saved us and called us to a holy life—NOT because of anything WE have done BUT because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time... (2 Tim. 1:8-9)
The reality?
#1 We're saved by the character of graciousness exhibited by God as exercised in His Son, Jesus Christ; not the character of man.
#2 And to pre-empt complete boasting on man's part, 'twas done before the clocked ticked once. (That's why the apostle Paul said that if “works” served as man's way to God, WE could boast about how WE “worked” our way into God's presence – see Ephesians 2:8-9)
Think of all this w/this illustration:
Parental "grace" or "favor" extended by adopted parents is "grace" extended to all they adopt, right?
But say you adopted a 12 yo boy who no matter what "pure gift" you gave to him @ his birthday or Christmas time, he would absolutely insist that he "work" for it..."pay you back" for it...and even eventually billed himself for "room and board" during his teen years to "pay you back" for that, too...
Believe me, such a 'tude exhibited by the "pay-back boy" would get old soon enough. How many times would the father say to Himself, "You know this boy can never pay back how I reached into the darkest part of the world to rescue him; yet he thinks he can 'earn' his way into sonship." At some point, this legalism is going to become "offensive" to a Gracious Father -- just like it would if your adopted son could never simply "receive" gifts from you.
Bottom line: Does the above describe a grace-filled father-son relationship?; or is that a legalistic tit-for-tat campaign to "prove" himself "worthy" as if he was a mere "house tenant" -- instead of acting like a true adopted son?
The apostle Paul also made it clear to the Galatians that they could nullify grace. Consider these three passages he wrote to them:
Galatians 2:21:
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! [My note: If we de-magnify God's grace, we set it apart...and belittle the cross of Christ, which the Mormons don't honor, anyway]
Galatians 3:1-3: 1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
Galatians 5:4: You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. [Example of grace nullification]
The apostle Paul also told the Romans – 11:5-6: 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then IT CANNOT BE BASED ON WORKS; IF IT WERE, GRACE WOULD NO LONGER BE GRACE. ***
Norm, Elz said three things in post #222 (what you're responding to here) -- the third of which is:
A MORMON president would 'authenticate' MORMONism in the eys of many; thus insuring their eventual destruction.
That has nothing to do with "religious liberty" issues...and everything to do with "spiritual bondage" issues.
Pure and simple, it's almost as if the book of Galatians was God's anticipated book specifically written for Mormons! Why? Well, not only because Mormons are our legalists of this era, but just look at these Galatians verses:
Galatians 1:6-9: 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
...know that a person is NOT justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and NOT by the works of the law, because by the works of the law NO ONE will be justified...21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” (Gal. 2:16, 21)
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your BELIEVING what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “BELIEVED God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 7 Understand, then, that those who have FAITH are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles BY FAITH, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who RELY ON FAITH are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 10 For ALL who RELY on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do EVERYTHING written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly NO ONE who RELIES on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live BY FAITH.” 12 The law is NOT based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that BY FAITH we might RECEIVE the promise of the Spirit. (Gal. 3:1-14)
7 So you are NO LONGER a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir. 8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods...we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman. 1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. (Gal. 4:7-8, 31, 5:1)
* 2 Nephi 25:23: ...ye are saved by grace, AFTER ALL YOU can DO." (2 Nephi 25:23)
* Helaman 12:24: "...may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, ACCORDING to their WORKS." (Helaman 12:24)
* Moroni 10:32: “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and IF ye shall deny yourselves of ALL ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, THEN is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.”
The Mormon teaching is clear above:
(1) Grace doesn't kick in for the Mormon UNTIL he's done "ALL" he can do... (2 Nephi 25:23) (All spiritually, relationally, physically, emotionally, intellectually, etc.)
(2) Grace is handed out in Mormonism tit-for-tat -- "according to works" (Helaman 12:24) This redefines the very word as a "free gift"
(3) In Mormonism, you have to FIRST deny yourself of ALL ungodliness -- not just some -- and ALSO love God with ALL your might, mind and strength -- and THEN God's grace kicks in (Moroni 10:32)
Utter hopelessness is this religious legalism of despair.
As a Christian minister, I absolutely reject the false teachings of Mormonism, a made-up, heretical religion. At the same time, I plan on voting for Mitt Romney. I’m only voting for a president, not a pastor.
Read the Parable of the Good Samaritan.
Read it carefully.
Jesus told us that those of other Faiths CAN put our own Faith to shame.
Take a look at Luke 10:18. It shows Satan was once part of the heavenly hosts before he was cast out of heaven having become perdition. Revelation 12:8 says the same thing. If all who were in heaven were not created by God, then who were they created by? Space aliens? So in as much as that’s true, then sure I guess Jesus and Satan have a familial connection as we all do—one long ago shattered when Satan rebelled and was cast out. That’s where any kind of relationship or comparison between the two ends. Christ is the personification of all that’s good and right. Satan is the personification of all that’s wrong and evil. Saying they were brothers, not really an official teaching of the church other than in a tangential way from the teaching of all being children of the same God, doesn’t mean Christ and Satan are at all comparable. And it doesn’t mean Mormons worship the devil. Kind of a silly and desperate thing to dredge up, don’t you think? It’s like saying if you believe in the brotherhood of all mankind and that we’re all children of God as I think most Christians do, that somehow you must believe Hitler and Jesus have something in common. It’s pretty much an intellectually deficient cheap-shot broadside in both instances.
The Constitution prohibit religious tests for holding public office. Mitt can belong to any freakish religion he chooses.
Nice people, but it’s a business and not a religion.
Anybody but Obama.
Thank the Gods the main stream media is focused on the Chick-Fil-A debate!
Well; it's been said; right here on the pages of FR; by an outstanding example of conservatism and activism; that....
Santorum endorses one-time rival Romney
Jesus Christ is God’s Son, spiritually and physically. He calls Him Father, He prays to Him. We are to pray to Him,, God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, His Son.
God’s voice was heard at Christ’s baptism, coming from Heaven while He was in the water. The Holy Sirit also descended. Three seperate entities/Gods.
If Romney wins the presidency, what you’ll have is a Mormon forced to go along with the American culture which is a Christian culture.
American Christians will lead Romney and any religious baggage he brings with him. Not the other way around.