Posted on 06/21/2012 8:24:00 AM PDT by fishtank
As Baptists Prepare to Meet, Calvinism Debate Shifts to Heresy Accusation Hundreds, including seminary presidents, have signed a statement on salvation criticized by both Reformed and Arminian theologians. Weston Gentry [ posted 6/18/2012 ] A statement by a non-Calvinist faction of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) has launched infighting within the nation's largest Protestant denomination, and tensions are expected to escalate Tuesday as church leaders descend on New Orleans.
(Excerpt) Read more at christianitytoday.com ...
I do not believe God “willed” the horror of Hitler or Stalin, or “willed” the AIDS epidemic or the like in any way. Hitler, Stalin, AIDS, hunger, war, etc. are all products of human sin. Thus we punish ourselves, God doesn’t have to zap us, we zap ourselves.
It's as if they are trying to defend God's actions.
The truth is that God tells us that He does these things in many places throughout scripture to call His people into repentance. One should consider the following passages of Amos:
Amo 4:7 "I also withheld the rain from you when there were yet three months to the harvest; I would send rain on one city, and send no rain on another city; one field would have rain, and the field on which it did not rain would wither;
Amo 4:8 so two or three cities would wander to another city to drink water, and would not be satisfied; yet you did not return to me," declares the LORD.
Amo 4:9 "I struck you with blight and mildew; your many gardens and your vineyards, your fig trees and your olive trees the locust devoured; yet you did not return to me," declares the LORD.
Amo 4:10 "I sent among you a pestilence after the manner of Egypt; I killed your young men with the sword, and carried away your horses, [fn] and I made the stench of your camp go up into your nostrils; yet you did not return to me," declares the LORD.
Amo 4:11 "I overthrew some of you, as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and you were as a brand [fn] plucked out of the burning; yet you did not return to me," declares the LORD.
If God isn't afraid to say so neither should we. The source of the problem is the hardness and corruption of our hearts. If we can't acknowledge the problem, we certainly won't acknowledge the remedy.
I’d never heard of William Carey, but his wikipedia page shows a quite tragic figure. It doesn’t say who christened him with the title “the father of modern missions”, but it sounds more subjective than definitional as missionary work was continuous in the Catholic Church.
As for passivity and presumptuousness I was referring to Calvinism’s heresies, not any specific persons who may or may not be active and/or humble. If I understand the doctrine correctly, please feel free to explain it better to me if I don’t, Calvinism essentially believes that Calvinists will be the only ones saved because they were elected to be saved by God in advance. You know you are saved because you believe this. It makes the rest of humanity mere window dressing.
It leads to a passivity about the salvation of others and a “I’m saved now pull the ladder up” attitude among its professors. At least that is my personal experience with Calvinism. I am certain that exceptions exist, though.
What is “amazing” is that your definition of “perfect” includes the ability to sin.
He had some tragedy in his life. I think may missionaries have...I don't know what this has to do with the point. My point was he spent years evangelizing in India (a founder of the Bapitist missionary society) and one of his major achievements was translating the Bible into many indian languages and dialects.
This is not a passive person. Rather, it depicts a person who because of a knowledge of who God is and what he does in people's lives is activated to spend his whole life in working to spread the Gospel. Why would he bother working to allow the Indians to know what was in God's word if he was passive about the Gospel?
Calvinism essentially believes that Calvinists will be the only ones saved because they were elected
No, you've got your facts wrong. Calvinists believe that christians across the spectrum are saved. The theology that God has elected His people before the foundations of the earch is shown very clearly in passages like Eph 1. Whether you believe in that particularly theology or not doesn't mean you are or aren't saved. The difference is that if you believe it it brings assurance. It doesn't mean we have no will or choices in life. But it means God is sovereign.
Calvin emphasized God's sovereignty and he was not the first to do so. Augustine also dwelt on God's sovereignty and was well aware of his own fickleness as a man. He had tossed and turned through many years of his life. In the end Augustine knew that he in his frailty would not have chosen God and that knowledge brought him rest and assurance; it is God that puts His church together and makes Himself known.
Your ideas about "pulling the ladder up" idiotic if I may be so blunt. (I say that not to you...I say that to many who twist what Calvinists are saying). NO Calvinist would say he/she does not now have to obey God. They know the Great Commission is out there and they are intent on obedience. EVERY Calvinist will tell you they don't know who God is drawing to Himself; thus, there is a need to preach/teach the truth to anyone God puts in their path. You only have to look at history (and the active calvinists out there in the world today) to know that passivity among them is a myth. The very premise of this article (that Calvinism is growing in the SBC) shows that Calvinists are not "pulling the ladder up". The movement is not shrinking, it's growing because in general Calvinists are working to spread a message of assurance among His people.
The plan was going to happen whatever choice Mary made. The angel starts by saying God was with with her (even though she was troubled He was still with her). Then He tells her she is going to be with child and give birth to the Son of the Most High.
I don't see God leaving the plan up to her choice.
She then believed the message and said she had been blessed by Him.
If a Christian wishes to know or describe God in human terms, s/he looks to Christ, God Incarnate.
Now, if you can imagine Christ "willing the horror of Hitler or Stalin" in order that they may "return to Him" somewhere along the way, you made a wrong turn in your view of God.
This, IMHO, is the primary heresy of Calvinism - it posits a cruel and capricious god, a god that kills and tortures so that humans will love him. An absurd view for orthodox Christians.
This is the god portrayed by atheists and the view of God that has produced more atheists than Christians, IMHO. It is nowhere near the God the Father that Jesus taught.
You describe a cosmos where human life and decisions are meaningless.
A desired goal of many christians is to exercise our will in conjunction with God's
What's meaningless about that?
Sounds like a peaceful (little enmity with God) and pretty rich life to me.
This reply is at odds with your previous one.
Is Mary’s choice the only meaningless one?
Well, that comment rakes up there with comments coming from Nancy Pelosi these days. Was Christ perfect and was He capable of sinning? That in itself should shed light on your statement.
Nonsense. God is neither cruel or wicked. Instead He is perfect love and kindness. What your statement shows is truly a lack of understanding of the depths of the depravity and wickedness of man.
Our Lord Jesus Christ is the exact same God of the Old Testament as He is of the New. It is He that rain fire on Sodom and brought the plagues on Egypt. And He was right to do so. It is justice and God trying to get our attention and we are better off for it, still talking about it all these centuries later. This statement is silly and simply shows a lack of understanding on the wickedness of man, a refusal to acknowledge our sinful state, and an inability to reconcile what God has revealed about Himself in ALL of the scriptures. People have far more regards for themselves then they should and in doing so they simply lower the glory of God.
Our Lord Jesus had no problem in saying what He would do in the last days, comparing the final destruction of man to the days of Noah or Sodom (some of the worst destruction)-and neither did Peter:
2Pe 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
2Pe 2:7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked
2Pe 2:8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);
2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
2Pe 2:10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,
2Pe 2:11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,
I believe your initial point was laying the wickedness of Hitler and Stalin on God - not man. Which is it? I think your argument tries to have it both ways.
***I do not need to convert anyone. ***
You CAN’T convert anyone, that is up to the Holy Spirit. We are all called to share the gospel to everyone we meet. The Holy Spirit does his work, we do our responsibilities. We tell others about God because he loved us.
If it were up to us, all we would need is a good arguement, be a solid conversationalist, have a snappy comeback, and be convincing. And, if we weren’t convincing enough, and the person we were talking to went to Hell, WE FAILED!!! So, how many people have you failed to convince yet?
Please show me where I lay the "wickedness of Hitler...on God". I'd be interested in see that.
What I've stated is that God raises these wicked people up to bring His people back to Him when we stray from Him. This is what the ENTIRE book of Judges teaches us.
What I've stated is that God raises these wicked people up to bring His people back
God is omnipotent and he created man with free will.
Contemplating the two, we often come to paradoxes. Some wish to resolve the paradoxes by denying one or the other.
Calvinism denies the latter and makes God responsible for all sin, and man not responsible at all.
since I belong to no religious denomonation, I have a qustion about God forcing us to do something.....With the wedding of the bride and groom (jesus and his bride) doesn’t the new testiment say that God saw that the hall was not full and sent his angels to force people into the wedding feast....not sure which NT book it is in...
“I have a qustion about God forcing us to do something. . .”
Most of us do, “forcing” isn’t the world I’d use, although I understand why you are using it. But in the parable you mention, the word “compel” is used, it’s a synonym for “force,” so maybe saying “force” is correct.
The parable about the wedding goes like this:
“Then He said to him, “A certain man gave a great supper and invited many, and sent his servant at supper time to say to those who were invited, ‘Come, for all things are now ready.’
But they all with one accord began to make excuses. The first said to him, ‘I have bought a piece of ground, and I must go and see it. I ask you to have me excused.’ And another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I am going to test them. I ask you to have me excused.’ Still another said, ‘I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.’ So that servant came and reported these things to his master.
Then the master of the house, being angry, said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in here the poor and the maimed and the lame and the blind.’ And the servant said, ‘Master, it is done as you commanded, and still there is room.’
Then the master said to the servant, ‘Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. For I say to you that none of those men who were invited shall taste my supper.’”
From Luke chapter 14.
Jdg 3:2 It was only in order that the generations of the people of Israel might know war, to teach war to those who had not known it before.
Jdg 3:3 These are the nations: the five lords of the Philistines and all the Canaanites and the Sidonians and the Hivites who lived on Mount Lebanon, from Mount Baal-hermon as far as Lebo-hamath.
Jdg 3:4 They were for the testing of Israel, to know whether Israel would obey the commandments of the LORD, which he commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses.
I'm always amazed at how clearly God can write His text and yet we simply ignore what He has written.Perhaps there IS no paradox. Perhaps there is God's will and man's will-ONLY.
Calvinism denies the latter and makes God responsible for all sin
Actually Calvin states that man has free will. It just that it tends to be driven towards evil. After we're saved then that will is driven towards good. People here keep saying man has "free will" yet they fail to explain WHY they don't follow Christ completely. I find Calvin's explanation far more plausible simply by knowing my own heart.
Even as a Christian I do the things I don't want to do and the very things I should do, I don't do them. This is the nature of our hearts. The ONLY reason I do anything good is because Christ has promise me that I would produce good works by working through me. I rest upon His promise that I'll do good things. I don't keep tallly of trying to do good because I don't presume to know what are the things that are pleasing to God. I don't worry about WHAT good things I'm trying to do. I only have to be faithful to God's commands-which keeps me busy enough.
Free will presumes that a person REALLY knows those things that will make God happy and does them. If a person knows that, then why don't they do it?
As far as making "God responsible for all sin" I would call your attention to the following verse:
Cain HAD a choice. In fact God told Cain that he COULD rule over sin. But Cain doesn't want to. As soon as God tells this to Cain, off Cain went to murder his brother Abel. You see, sin is what we WANT to do unless God changes our heart. This is the nature of man. That doesn't make God responsible.
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