The Big Discovery [by David, former Presbyterian]

Journeyof ImperfectSaint.blogspot.com ^ | October 4, 2009 | David

[Salvation]

Sunday, October 4, 2009

The Big Discovery

        I made some good friends outside my church and found out that they were all Catholics.  Now, I did not know much about Catholicism at the time.  By the way, the Mass did seem somewhat mysterious to me externally.  In fact, what little I had heard from other church members was all negative.  There was a Mrs. J at my church, who had just retired from her missionary post in China.  She was such a kind and endearing soul to all.  One day she got back from visiting someone at a hospital and looked extremely sad and disturbed.  It turned out that when she got to the hospital room, she saw that a Catholic priest was already there with the patient.  Now the question was if the patient would ever get to heaven. 

 

        Nevertheless, my Catholic friends all looked quite normal and happy.  Then could the Catholic Church, the largest church in the the world, be in error?  It so happened that at that time I was also beginning to question my Protestant faith.  The fact that there were numerous different denominations around the world bothered me.  Also, as a Protestant, whether you're a minister or lay person, you are free to marry and divorce any number of times.  It's hard to see that Jesus would be happy with these two facts.  Since I am the kind of person who always likes to find the answer to any question that's important, I decided to look into Catholicism.

 

        I made up my mind not to talk to anyone about my investigation.  I was single then and had a lot of free time to myself.  The local public library housed an excellent collection of books on Catholicism, so I started borrowing books on the subject.  I read every weekend, even taking notes as I read.  The went on for over a year.  I read all those books that viciously attack the Catholic Church too, but somehow they did not affect me much because I sensed that these attacks could not have been prompted by the Holy Spirit.  The books that really helped me were the ones on early Church history.  I could see that the continuity was there and the beliefs and practices of the early Church had been preserved to this day in the Catholic Church.  The only conclusion I could come to was that the Catholic Church was indeed the church Jesus had come and established.  Like Christ himself, the Church, being his body, must be accepted (or rejected) totally, with no middle ground. 

 

        Here's some advice for those who seek the truth.  Your chances of success will greatly improve if, first, you start out with a completely open mind and secondly, go to the source(s) directly to get the facts.  Many who misunderstand the Catholic Church today have already made up their mind that the Church is wrong, thus never bothering to pick up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church to find out what the Church really teaches.  This is being close-minded. 

[metmom]

Thank you.

Much to some people’s chagrin, the internet IS available to research information ourselves.

Ukrainian Catholics are kind of perceived as the errant younger brother, like the black sheep of the family. Family, yes, but gone astray and needs to come back into the fold.

A very condescending attitude, which seems to permeate Roman Catholic thinking as a whole.

(Disclaimer - not ALL Catholics. There are one or two who are more charitable than the rest)

[Titanites]

It is obvious that there was and is a schism.

There is no schism. The Pope gave the approval for Archbishop Schevchuk, to succeed Cardinal Husar who resigned for health reasons.

Zenit As the Code of Canon Law of the Eastern Churches establishes (Canon 153), the appointment requires the recognition of communion with the universal Church granted by the Pope. Archbishop Schevchuk (Rome has not assigned the title of patriarchate to this Church) was the youngest bishop taking part in the synod and is the fourth youngest bishop of the Catholic Church.

[Titanites]

Sure they are

You are right. They are Catholics and appointment of their latest archbishop was approved by the Pope.

They don't bow down to your popes.

Well, actually it is their Pope, too. And I'm sure they are respectful of the office, just as people are repectful of the office of Queen of Britain, and curtsey and bow.

They don't pray to Mary, but they are real Catholics

Here is the version of the Ave Maria used by Ukrainain Greek Catholics:

Theotokos God-bearing Maid, rejoice, grace-filled Mary, the Lord with thee. Praised thou among women, and praised the fruit of thy womb, because it was the Saviour of our souls that thou barest.

They claim THEY can trace their Bishops back to the Apostles just like your religion does...

I wouldn't doubt it. They are the one, true Church who can trace their lineage back to the Apostles just like all the Catholic Churches can.

To me, it sounds like Hamas and Hizbollah fighting over which one of them owns Israel

We can't help what your imagination conjures up.

[metmom]

LOL!!!

[Titanites]

I don't see how you could construe anything in the post to make it mean what you want it to mean

Good for you. You've already demonstrated your expertise on the Orthodox and Catholics, which includes the Ukrainaian Greek Catholics.

[metmom]

FOTFLOL!!!!

[Titanites]

LOL!!!

I agree, LOL. His post couldn't have been any more wrong.

[Natural Law]

"A very condescending attitude, which seems to permeate Roman Catholic thinking as a whole."

How deliciously ironic. The person who has spent the better part of the last decade denigrating Catholics as being second class Christians or not even Christian at all is attacking the Church because centuries old cultural and nationalistic biases of some of its members have blead beyond the teachings of the Church.

The really ironic thing is that your uncivil and unchristian actions aren't the product of any cultural or national conditioning, just plain old fashioned ignorance and hatred. By the same flawed reasoning, since you allege that you were once Catholic you can blame your actions and heretical beliefs on the Church too. I'll bet you could even make a case that the Church is responsible for the Lindburg kidnapping and the Manson murders too.

Peace be with you

[Titanites]

Ukrainian Catholics are kind of perceived as the errant younger brother, like the black sheep of the family. Family, yes, but gone astray and needs to come back into the fold.

They are so far astray and such black sheep that the Pope had named Lubomyr Husar a Cardinal of the Catholic Church.

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[CynicalBear]

Give it up man. The statement by Husar makes it obvious that there is a division of opinion and attitude toward each other. Deny it all you want but logical people can read the comment and understand he wouldn’t have made it if there hadn’t been those attitudes. We are not stupid or in denial.

[CynicalBear]

Nice try. I didn’t see where metmom said anything about a “split”. Her comments where to the affect that there was an “attitude” of superiority of individuals and even leadership. The comments of Husar make it rather obvious that that “attitude” reached into the upper levels of leadership. Semantics notwithstanding the attempt to split hairs is becoming rather obvious.

[Titanites]

We are not stupid or in denial.

Do you deny that the Ukrainian Catholic is in full communion with the Pope?

Do you deny that Lubomyr Husar was made a Cardinal by the Pope?

Do you deny that Lubomyr Husar was one of the top candidates to become Pope after the death of John Paul II?

Do you deny that Lubmyr Husar submitted his resignation (due to health reasons) to the Pope and the Pope accepted?

Do you deny that Sviatoslav Shevchuk was elected Major Archbishop of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church to replace Husar and he was enthroned after the election was accepted by the Pope?

The Ukrainian Greek Catholics are not in schism. They are in full communion with Pope.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

how does your line of thinking here work in 1 Corinthians 1:16? can you prove from the Scripturs that there were no babies or infants in the household of Steph’anas?

you could have saved yourself a lot of effort and just answered “ no , i got nothing “
your post is a lot of sound and fury signifying NOTHING!

BTW, i notice you never affirmed a belief in the Trinity or the divinity of Christ. Very interesting.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

hmm, metmom is post 666. coincidence???

you decide.

[CynicalBear]

>>Do you deny that the Ukrainian Catholic is in full communion with the Pope?<<

Could you show where I ever said they weren’t?

>>Do you deny that Lubomyr Husar was made a Cardinal by the Pope?<<

Has anyone said he wasn’t?

>>Do you deny that Lubomyr Husar was one of the top candidates to become Pope after the death of John Paul II?<<

I couldn’t care less.

>>Do you deny that Lubmyr Husar submitted his resignation (due to health reasons) to the Pope and the Pope accepted?<<

What does that, or any of these, have to do with the conversation that there is an “attitude” of superiority of some in the RCC?

>>The Ukrainian Greek Catholics are not in schism.<<

Semantics, semantics, semantics. When the leadership of the Ukrainian Catholics makes a statement like he did one would have to be daft to think all is copasetic. Play word games and obfuscate all you want but the attitudes are what they are for all who choose truth to see.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

protected from teaching error in matters of salvation.

he who hears you, hears me.....

you see the Christian God is capable of protecting a people for Himself, He did so for national Israel in the OT and He is still doing it for spiritual Israel in the NT TIL TODAY.

I am with you ALWAYS, even to the end of time....

[count-your-change]

Then as the wheat and tares grew together how would one distinguish one from the other. Jesus said in that illustration the field had been over sown and the true and false would grow together and be indistinguishable one from the other.

So where is the protection?

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

can you find “wheat” in the 2nd century? 3rd? 4th? 5th? 6th? 7th? 8th? 9th? 10th? 11? 12th? 13th? 14th? 15th?

if yes, i’d like you to name some “wheat”

if no, the real wheat looks likes tares to the ungodly.

the real wheat have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, the tares think they are wheat and are utterly deceived by a false gospel and false teachers.

the Holy Spirit will not lead the wheat to teach baptismal regeneration for 1,500 years and then lead other wheat to teach “believers baptism” in the 16th century.

God is not the author of confusion.

[count-your-change]

“if yes, i’d like you to name some “wheat”
if no, the real wheat looks likes tares to the ungodly.”

In the illustration the difference between the wheat and weeds was not apparent to anyone until the tare produced seeds.
The tares became recognizable when they began to produce fruit and only when both wheat and tares were mature would the separation take place.

Would you like to reread the illustration and Jesus’ explanation?