Posted on 06/02/2012 7:46:09 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
Recently a Wisconsin judge seriously overreached her authority when she sentenced Philip Caminite, pastor of Aleitheia Bible Church to two years in prison for teaching his flock to discipline their children! Such illegal judicial actions are one reason many of us think many judges rank alongside used car salesmen, and I don’t mean to insult used car salesmen by the comparison. I suggest that Judge Maryann Sumi might improve her status by selling cars, not sending preachers to prison.
The pastor is to be supervised for six years after serving his time and is forbidden to have any contact with his church and to have no leadership in any church. So we have a court stomping on the constitutional rights of a preacher and telling him where he can go to church and forbidding him to follow his calling of preaching. I wonder if Maryann has ever read the First Amendment. If this case stands, it will be a Damocles sword hanging over the head of every preacher, priest, and rabbi in the nation. In fact, every church leader should preach on this subject next Sunday, and end with “No judge or any other official will tell me what to preach. Never, never, never.” Assistant District Attorney Shelly Rusch wanted the preacher to be sentenced to five years in prison and 15 years of extended supervision, calling him "the spoke in the wheel of this conspiracy." Shelly is as confused or radical as Maryann since the pastor was teaching what true preachers have taught for centuries. Sorry dear, not a conspiracy. Shelly should be back in her kitchen baking cookies. The judged said that the sentence, in part, was “intended to send a message that child abuse will not be tolerated and to prevent Caminiti from once again teaching members of his church to spank their children with wooden objects to cure them of selfishness.” The judge is not thinking or is skewed in her thinking since teaching people to discipline their children is not child abuse. In fact, I have always taught that parents who refuse to reasonably discipline their children (involving spanking for rebellion and disobedience) are child abusers!
Recent studies in the U.S. and Sweden prove that sparing the rod does spoil the child. Sweet little Johnny, without discipline, will become Big Bad John. Another study published in the Akron Law Review a couple years ago examined criminal records and found that children raised without spanking are much more likely to be involved in crime. Many anti-spanking “experts” have seen the light while the Wisconsin judge, prosecutor and the jury are still stumbling in the darkness.
The next time I have a speaking engagement in Wisconsin I will be sure to instruct my listeners to properly discipline their children. Maryann and Shelly are invited to attend and sit in the amen corner. They may even “hit the sawdust trail.” The preacher was not guilty of abusing a child; he was sent to prison for teaching parents to discipline their children! Since when does a judge, any judge, on any court have the authority to tell a preacher what he can teach? The judge is an idiot or a radical ideologue. Maryann whined that the preacher showed no indications of being remorseful or repentant, but then he should not be since he was teaching the truth. Maryann refused the preacher the courtesy of being free during the appeal, a privilege that is often given the most heinous criminals. Many judges think their rulings from the bench can make something just when it is unjust! It may be legal but it is not just. Many judges stand in front of a mirror awed with themselves in their black sheets indicating they have a messianic complex. They seem to be waiting for a vacancy in the Trinity! It is common for them to think they can walk on water, maybe explaining why so many judges are all wet.
I am convinced the real child abusers are incompetent, intolerant, and insensitive judges who send parents to jail and place well-adjusted children in state homes that are often rampant with sodomy, drugs, violence, etc. Of course, the state homes are licensed! There is no doubt that some judges are child abusers.
Prosecuting attorneys, determined to “cut another notch on their guns,” callously prosecute preachers and parents without regard to what is best for the children and, therefore, are child abusers.
Judges, police officers, and prosecutors along with the other child abusers—should go to jail! Yes, I know that jails are a bad environment filled with killers, rapists, drug dealers, child molesters, the scum of the earth, but I don’t think the judges, prosecuting attorneys, and zealous social workers will corrupt the inmates much further!
Pastors had better come out of the closet! March on the Bastille! Mount the barricades. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition; the ammunition being courage, commitment, conscience, and convictions. Your children and freedom to preach God’s message are in the balance!
Let’s kick officials out of office who abuse the rights of Christian leaders, and bring them before the bar of justice for their attacks on church and home leadership. In my opinion, the preacher should have told the judge she was out of order and her ruling would be totally ignored and she could hear him preach next Sunday at the Aleitheia Bible Church. Of course, he would go to jail immediately for contempt; but then, of course, he would be guilty of contempt of court, even though totally justified.
Surely he will be set free when his case comes before sensible people and he should sue the prosecutor, the judge, and the county for religious discrimination, kidnapping, interference with Christian worship, and anything else that can be thrown in.
Moreover, this is a perfect example that cries for jury nullification, but then, that’s another day.
Copyright 2012, Don Boys, Ph.D.
(Dr. Don Boys is a former member of the Indiana House of Representatives, author of 14 books, frequent guest on television and radio talk shows, and wrote columns for USA Today for 8 years. Three years ago, the second edition of ISLAM: America's Trojan Horse! was published, and his new eBook, The God Haters is available for $9.99 from www.thegodhaters.com. These columns go to newspapers, magazines, television, and radio stations. His other web sites are www.cstnews.com and www.Muslimfact.com. Contact Don for an interview or talk show.)
Exactly. You posted the full article. I posted the paragraphs that dealt with the jury’s finding. The truth is not every ‘church’ teaches God’s word. Just because one ‘thinks’ they are called to ministry does not make it so. I find these self-proclaimed groups often to be really very dangerous
And the very word you want to quote is indeed a scepter a mark of authority. No doubt you would apply the same logic to the parsing of ‘Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me.” Nice try but....not
Simply due to the fact that a person has written columns that go to newspapers, magazines, television, and radio stations does not assert that he is equipped with skills required to coherently convey a thought or that he earn better that a C- on in a eight grade English Composition class.
For example, in the first sentence of the column, Dr. Boys reveals that he is unable to correctly spell Philip Caminiti’s name correctly.
His second paragraph begins with informing the reader that Caminiti will be supervised once he is released from prison and ends with his belief that parents who do not spank their children are child abusers.
From that point, Boys continues his rant, rambling from one thought to another abusing the exclamation mark as if it were a Caminiti parishioner’s two month old baby wetting her diaper.
That’s why I always try to fact-check blog post or email article before I post it. I agree with the Biblical precept of not sparing the rod. But against a 6-month old infant? Posting advocacy for such makes all of us look foolish.
The word "shebet" As defined in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible defines it in English, and shows the usages in the AV:
shay'-bet
From an unused root probably meaning to branch off; a scion, that is, (literally) a stick (for punishing, writing, fighting, ruling, walking, etc.) or (figuratively) a clan: - X correction, dart, rod, sceptre, staff, tribe.
Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible gives the usages as: dart, 1; pen,1; rod, 34; sceptre, 10, staff, 2; tribe, 141.
Genesius's Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures yields six meanings with their related use texts:
1. a staff, stick, rod -- used for beating or striking (Is. 10:15, 14:5); and chastening (Prov. 10:13, 13:24, 22:8
2. a shepherd's rod, a crook (Lev.27:32, Ps. 23:4)
3. the sceptre of a king (Gen. 49:10 etc.)
4. a tribe of the Israelites, so-called from the sceptre of the leader or prince of the tribe (Ex. 28:21, Jud. 21:2) (etc.)
5. a measuring rod (Ps. 74:2, etc.) 6. a spear (2 Sam. 18:14)(dart in AV, lance in DRB)
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The Hebrew word can be interpreted as "sceptre" in English, but not in this context of Prov. 13:24, where a literal interpretation is intended and demanded. The correct English word for this context is "rod" which the translators of AV, ASV, RSV, NASB, DRB, NIV, and others choose. No translator has selected "sceptre" as related to this passage. Your tack of trying to reinterpret this passage as a metaphor of exercising rulership is contrary not only to common sense, but to eminent commentators, of whom Matthew Henry exemplifies:
Proverbs 13:24
Note, 1. To the education of children in that which is good there is necessary a due correction of them for what is amiss; every child of ours is a child of Adam, and therefore has that foolishness bound up in its heart which calls for rebuke, more or less, the rod and reproof which give wisdom. Observe, It is his rod that must be used, the rod of a parent, directed by wisdom and love, and designed for good, not the rod of a servant.
2. It is good to begin betimes with the necessary restraints of children from that which is evil, before vicious habits are confirmed. The branch is easily bent when it is tender.
3. Those really hate their children, though they pretend to be fond of them, that do not keep them under a strict discipline, and by all proper methods, severe ones when gentle ones will not serve, make them sensible of their faults and afraid of offending. They abandon them to their worst enemy, to the most dangerous disease, and therefore hate them. Let this reconcile children to the correction their good parents give them; it is from love, and for their good. (see Heb. 12:7-9)
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What you need to realize is that this passage is literal in interpretation, literal in language, and when the parent needs to use force if necessary to obtain compliance, he is to beat the child with a stick until compliance is obtained. Do you insist that one is to literally beat the child with a king's mace? or to beat him with a tribe of Israel? or with a spear shaft or measuring rod (well, maybe)?
The point is made that the Scripture as interpreted means exactly what The LORD wants the writer to say to you in your language, and not what you seemingly want it to say.
Now, regarding "thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me" -- the rod of the shepherd is used exactly as intended -- to beat the erring sheep back into the way. It is known that an obstinately disobedient lamb is likely to have its leg deliberately broken by the shepherd. The result is that the lamb cannot run away, but will be carried by the shepherd until the leg heals. The lamb will never leave the shepherd again. Sometimes severe methods are needed for oppositional defiance, that it never be allowed to become habitual.
In the figurative-literal sense, God does correct his children by chastening through consequences, illnesses, or other calamities as a rod of correction. In this sense, He may also use His Word as a rod of chastening. The true believer, who errs and is corrected by the the Master through earned consequences permitted by him, finds comfort knowing that the Master's attention is ever on and for the welfare of his children. If you have never received chastening at His hand, then you are not his child. Hebrews 12:8 calls such a one something else.
But in the case of a child, the parent is assigned by God the chore of exercising literal, corporal chastening as needed, and the Scriptural mode is by a literal rod fitted to the child's size and sensitivity. But this needs to start early, much earlier than the atheistic child-behavior theorists want to acknowledge.
The point is made. If you haven't gotten it and admitted it, others will. You cannot mix Dr. Spock and God's Word and come up with a Christian child believer-disciple.
exactly.
There is nothing in the Bible that says God would have you beat your child. You totally ignored the usage of rod within the context of the twenty-third Psalm. You may not pick and choose single instances one must build scripture upon scripture.
Interestingly enough I raised my children very successfully by teaching them in a consistent and Christian manner and never once did I have to beat them with a rod. You can beat your children if you so choose. In the end we will both find who is correct.
I think it says something when he is published and more of his work is demanded. Are you judging content or form? Perhaps it has occurred to you that to be read, you must write to a public that feeds on a sixth-grade reading level. As did J. D. Salinger with "The Catcher in the Rye" as well as many short stories, novellas, and the like. BTW, the KJV fog index is on about the same level. In this article, Dr. Boys was able to express his ideas adequately to be clearly understood. However, if you have complaints, you might write to him and give him your thoughts on this. Here in FR, just trying to drag him down with ancillary and immaterial non-observations won't be very profitable, seems to me.
For example, in the first sentence of the column, Dr. Boys reveals that he is unable to correctly spell Philip Caminiti’s name correctly.
Or perhaps he was given an incorrect spelling from one of his resources. But I notice that he did OK on the rest of the words as found in the dictionary. However, in your first sentence above, did you mean "eighth" or was "eight" good enough to catch your meaning? And it might be more polished to say "in an eighth grade English composition class."
His second paragraph begins with informing the reader that Caminiti will be supervised once he is released from prison and ends with his belief that parents who do not spank their children are child abusers.
Yes, you did notice that this very lo-o-ong paragraph was a result of our poster failing to transcribe the paragraph divisions found in the original -- that was not approved by Dr. Boys, I suppose. If you had checked that out, you would have seen just a little difference in structure. The link to one better source is http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Opinion/112767-2012-06-02-judge-should-go-to-jail-not-pastor-who-taught-discipline.htm
From that point, Boys continues his rant, rambling from one thought to another abusing the exclamation mark as if it were a Caminiti parishioner’s two month old baby wetting her diaper.
From another ranter, seems like. It looks that you just don't like the way this man parts his hair, but can't really find something in his theorem that you can put your finger on except his spelling and punctuation. Keep on!! I'm having fun! Give me more ammunition! I like exclamation points!
(Just pulling your leg a bit--)
Doctor of Divinity, Doctor of Psychology.....perhaps a seer, as well?
Yeah, i am used to having my past thrown at me. Nothing new, there.
It simply means that I have experienced what you can only read about in a book or a magazine. Those who have been there know better than those who can only cast conjecture and wild imaginings.
There is, and you have missed it. You need to read Proverbs through from a version that is in the literal equivalent mode. (Prov. 10:13, 13:24,22:15,23:13,14) The verse that stands out is "Thou shalt beat him with a rod, and shall deliver him from hell." Your children's effective salvation was involved with this system.
You totally ignored the usage of rod within the context of the twenty-third Psalm.
I did not. I have many times been chastened by The LORD in ways you probably have not yet contemplated, but I am comforted that it is He that chastens me for my profit, that I might be a partaker of his holiness.
You may not pick and choose single instances one must build scripture upon scripture.
I did not, and gave the reasons why, including related passages. Why don't you calm down and read them, as well as other comments I made on this article?
Interestingly enough I raised my children very successfully by teaching them in a consistent and Christian manner and never once did I have to beat them with a rod.
You never resorted to any corporal punishment whatsoever? Either they were sinless or somebody else had to do it for you, maybe. If you never chastened them, you missed out on your main chore as a parent. If you never used the rod, you ignored God's clear non-debatable instruction. If you ever used hand spanking or slapping them you used an instrument that is never mentioned in the Bible for child correction. It was used by servants of the high priest to shame The Christ and the Apostle Paul.
You can beat your children if you so choose.
Depends on what you think "beating" means. If you're assuming that means thrashing them to within an inch of their lives, or for no reason at all, you are greatly misunderstanding the process. If you understand that the boundaries have been established, and they know that they have disobeyed and know consequences, they will also know that they will suffer real felt pain that they have earned and brought it upon themselves. You are only the administrator, not the causer. For the guilty but contrite, a token application suffices. But if guilty and still rebellious, the child's will to resist must be dealt with.
In the end we will both find who is correct.
I already know who is correct. One of my children who disobeyed my counsel died on US95 in his Escort under the wheels of a Greyhound bus, intoxicated. I put his body in the ground on his 27th birthday. His two brothers served as employees of a well-known international Christian missionary effort for 5 years each. One is now a Director of Information Services for a large Japanese corporation, has been for years. His brother gave the graduation speech for his engineering class of an outstanding technical university, was invited to return for a Masters, and finally earned his Professional Engineering license. After several years, he founded his own company, and later ran for Senator for his state. My daughter put herself through college, was married with four children; widowed at 42, but remarried later. At the same time she held professional positions and is now a vice president of a large national banking concern. All are sincere believing and practicing members of their local churches. I know what the outcome of their child-raising methods were, and the Proverbs 13:24 method wins hands down. Dr. Spock's methods? time-outs? -- not so well.
Hope it is as good for you. May The LORD's Word illuminate your way.
I'm done with this.
or that your ego is still out of control
Your opinion.
As we know, opinions are like anuses....everyone has one, and many of them stink.
You have reproduced for us the take of the liberal media on these episodes.
The pastor was not himself convicted for abusing any child.
Furthermore, the judge has determined that this pastor cannot again assume the office of pastor of any church after is prison sentence is up. This is far, far, over-reaching.
There is always the possibility of parents, taking the teachings of Proverbs on corporeal discipline, to an un-biblical extreme. The discipline of Proverbs cannot put a child in danger of death, for starters (Proverbs 23:13).
There are thousands of Biblicist pastors and Bible teachers all over this country, yea, tens or hundreds of thousands of us worldwide who still teach child discipline literally from the Bible, and also apply it in our homes and families (the seven children in my home have all had "wooden objects" used on their posteriors and the fleshy portions on the back of their thighs, and at early ages when it is most effective in subjecting the will, spirit and mindset of the child to those of the parents).
There is always the possibility of some people who hear us teach the Scriptures not using Biblical reason and going beyond what is proper with their own children.
At this point, Dr. Boys (who is not novice at researching the topics on which he writes), and we ourselves, are looking at the fact in this case that the pastor has been convicted and sentenced for teaching the Biblical texts on the use of the rod (could be "wooden objects"), and not for abusing any child.
We surmise that if we (Dr. Boys and I) were living in the same judicial jurisdiction, we would encounter the very same treatment from the same prosecutors and judge simply for our teaching, and not for abusing any child.
This judge apparently believes that any use of the rod on a child is wrong and punishable in her court. She is one who has been trained in this way of liberal, anti-Christian, anti-Biblical, anti-Christian-heritage way of lawmaking from the judicial bench. I doubt that any Wisconsin law gives her this authority.
Your responses get sillier and sillier. every time you try and ‘put me in my place’ you end up proving who you are. I truly do hope you get your anger levels under control. I will carry you in my thoughts and prayers
True.
He was convicted of conspiracy to commit child abuse:
A Black Earth pastor was found guilty Wednesday of eight counts of conspiracy to commit child abuse for advocating the use of wooden rods to spank children as young as two months.A Dane County jury took only about two hours to find Philip Caminiti, 54, pastor of the Aleitheia Bible Church, guilty of having instructed members of his flock to punish children as young as infants and toddlers by striking them on the bare buttocks with wood dowels in order to teach them to behave correctly, fitting the church's literal interpretation of the Bible
From the original news article (before the conviction):
"During interviews with detectives, Phil expressed his belief that the Bible dictates the use of a rod over a hand to punish children. He stated that children only a few months old are 'worthy' of the rod and that by 'one and a half months,' a child is old enough to be spanked," according to the sheriff's office release."Throughout the investigation, the church members were open with detectives about their 'Spare the rod, spoil the child' philosophy. They described using wooden dowels and wooden spoons on the bare skin of children, starting as young as 2 months old," the sheriff's office said.
You said:
There is always the possibility of some people who hear us teach the Scriptures not using Biblical reason and going beyond what is proper with their own children.
And that is the point.
I, too, believe that a little corporal punishment, applied in a dispassionate manner, at the appropriate young age, is a very effective means of helping a youngster develop self-discipline. That's why it's in the Scriptures.
But 1-1/2 months? 2 months? Are you kidding me??????
A 1-1/2 month old or 2 month old is not even old enough to crawl, much less show any kind of disobedience.
Look, the overall point is correct: the State would love nothing more than to take over the rearing of children. And the State would love nothing more than to eradicate all Christian values from childrearing. And the State would not want to see us raise disciplined children who are actually able to accomplish something. And the State would love to control what is preached inside a church. Sure, absolutely.
But Dr. Boys could have picked one heck of a better example to illustrate his overall point. This example is just plain wrong. Sorry if you can't see that.
I do not believe that the 2-1/2 to 2 month-old stuff is the issue, although prosecutors know that the younger . . . the more emotional response can be pulled to their real issue, which is, ALL "paddling" is verboten.
I'm right there with you. The progressives would outlaw all forms of discipline...not just corporal discipline.
I do not believe that the 2-1/2 to 2 month-old stuff is the issue
I read the OP and was outraged and was going to post about the incident (using a news article) on "another board." I always fact-check anything I post elsewhere...preferring to post a news article and then opining about it myself, rather than posting an email. So I checked on the pastor's name and the church's name and came up with this. Wow.
Yes, for the courts, the age is probably not the main issue. The mere fact that corporal discipline was applied was, undoubtedly the main issue for them. But for me...the age was the Only issue. Take a good precept and take it 1,000,000 miles too far. It ruined the author's entirely valid points.
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