Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
Why not allow people to speak, let others consider their words and proofs and let the Holy Spirit do what HE does best - convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment? It only looks desperate to denigrate every scholarly work BUT your own guy's. Let people read it for themselves and make a knowledgeable choice. God gave us a brain, the ability to reason and He rewards those who diligently seek Him with the truth. God's word is truth.
Unfortunately, I think that title was all the proof some need to establish its veracity. That is not a search for the truth, it is a search for validation.
I take an opposite approach because I put a very high value on the truth. It is far more important to me what is right and not who is right. I don't always get everything right immediately, but I keep at it until I do even when it requires stepping on a few toes. I approach everything as a skeptic and require that every source prove itself. I think that too many take the opposite approach.
Faith and the truth will withstand every test. As I have often admitted in these threads there are times when I have had difficulties with Catholic doctrines and I make sure that I thoroughly research the topic to ensure that it is not my understand or reasoning that is flawed. In every case with sufficient study and prayer I have realized that the Church is right.
I see a decency and intellect in you that is absent in too many on these threads. I know that you sincerely love God and have a desire to know Him ever more. I just fear that you have so much invested in anti-Catholicism that it blinds you to the good that is in the Church and its saints. Although I wish you would it is not important to me that you return to the Church. I just want you to speak truthfully of it.
Peace be with you
You're right and I'm not at all surprised. I think what it really boils down to is they readily admit all of "us" are a lost cause and it's "us" that have hearts of stone, immovable to understand truth, but they are concerned about all those other possible readers who may not have made a decision yet. They are also "preaching to the choir" in an attempt to stave off any doubts and questions that may arise to the legitimate and Scriptural arguments we present. You have posted quotes from their own Pope's Bulls that forbid the reading, hearing and fellow shipping with those outside of Catholicism and we certainly know what they are afraid of. I mentioned someone "poisoning the well" earlier, and that IS what they are trying to do. "Oh, can't let anyone read THAT guy! Better stop 'em in their tracks before they click on that link and read it for themselves!"
I'm not afraid to read their links, are you? If it is the truth, we will receive it no matter who says it. If they are full of it, we'll know that too. That's what happens when you take the time to read and study and meditate upon the Word of God. The Holy Spirit brings back to our remembrance what He has illuminated in our hearts by this study and we need not fear the tricks and devices of the enemy of our souls. Thank you for all of your hard work. It has NOT been in vain and God will honor you because you honor Jesus Christ.
Metmom speaks for me, too. That is how EVERY church I have attended does it - other than the Catholic one, which is her point, isn't it?
I think it is a very good point she made that it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul; Jesus instituted the bread AND the wine for a remembrance of His flesh and blood; and leaving OUT the wine in the Lord's Supper Communion observance certainly IS suspect. I'll bet it plays into the reason why Catholicism teaches the Eucharist must be taken immediately (if possible) after confession is made so that the soul can again attain a "state of grace". It is the blood of Christ, Scripture says, that cleanses us from all sin. The early church certainly included both. So much for the "unchanging" faith.
3rd time to share this. I’ll shorten it and take out my
comments. Well, one personal question. In John 6, when does Our Lord mean His real flesh and when does mean His “flesh” is symbolic, a metaphor? Where’s the change? Give the evidence?
_____ _____ ______
John 6:55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood,hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
“John 6:55 is the metaphor.”
~ ~ ~
John 6:51-52
I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my FLESH, for the life of the world.
Jesus says that the bread which He will give for the life of the world is His flesh. When did He give His flesh for the life of the world? On the cross. Was that symbolic? If you think Jesus is speaking symbolically here when He says that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood, then you must also conclude that Jesus’ death on the cross was symbolic...it wasn’t really Jesus hanging up there...it was symbolic flesh and symbolic blood.
Questions go unanswered. Look to the faith, the reason Catholics keep asking. What if you’re wrong? Imagine if you’ve been taught something untrue. The not knowing, especially when you see an obvious error or contradiction in the Gospel.
It’s been posted, the “water” in the Protestant new meaning
to “Born Again” was the women at the well, “Born Again” is
connected to the Our Lord’s words...”rivers of living water”
and the third, something to do with the Bible is the “water.”
Someone else reply, where is the “water” in accepting Our
Jesus Christ into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior, one time? That’s the Protestant definition of
“Born Again.”
Jesus said in John 3, “Born Again” involves water and the
action of God. Both...what say you?
John 3:5
Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
footnote ~
[5] Unless a man be born again: By these words our Saviour hath declared the necessity of baptism; and by the word water it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words. Matt. 28. 19.
“If you think Jesus is speaking symbolically here when He says that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood, then you must also conclude that Jesus’ death on the cross was symbolic...it wasn’t really Jesus hanging up there...it was symbolic flesh and symbolic blood.”
That's hardly so. We mix idioms, metaphors, symbolic and actual in our speech, often in the same sentence. Example:
I could say, ‘It's winter and the wolf is at the door.’, but no one would expect to see an animal on the door step.
So on what basis can we deny to others the rich use of language that we use ourselves?
“I think it is a very good point she made that it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul; Jesus instituted the bread AND the wine for a remembrance of His flesh and blood; and leaving OUT the wine in the Lord’s Supper Communion observance certainly IS suspect. I’ll bet it plays into the reason why Catholicism teaches the Eucharist must be taken immediately (if possible) after confession is made so that the soul can again attain a “state of grace”. It is the blood of Christ, Scripture says, that cleanses us from all sin. The early church certainly included both. So much for the “unchanging” faith.”
~ ~ ~
Please explain, how is Our Lord’s suffering, agonizing, loss
of almost, maybe all, every drop of His blood on the Cross become a “REMEMBRANCE” of His horrible death by a person consuming a piece of bread and a sip of wine or eating a cracker and a sip of grape juice?
Doesn’t fit. “REMEMBRANCE” is misinterpreted.
When Our Lord said “remembrance” He was instructing the
Apostles, the first priests to do as He had just done,
confect the Holy Eucharist. They and their successors have
for 2000 years!
Non-Catholic Christians accept Jesus is the Passover Lamb in the New Covenant but reject or do not recall what followed? They CONSUMED the sacrificed Passover Lamb.
Jesus’ presence in the consecrated bread and wine are the
same, and now, a rather lame objection. Who can figure it?
Protestants, why would you care? You reject the Real Presence. Jesus states in prophecy, you cannot mature spiritually without the most Holy Eucharist.
To repeat, for the life of your soul, accept what God shows
you, Catholics too, during the Great Warning.
The most Holy Eucharist is God Himself. You won’t get waylaid during the Great Tribulation if you come to believe in Our Lord’s presence in the Eucharist.
“Since no one actually consumed the living, human flesh and blood of Christ we can say Christ was using a metaphor, despite efforts to philosophically find Christ in morsels, flakes and atoms of bread.”
~ ~ ~
I like the openness to discuss.
Jesus says it, think spiritually, supernaturally, not in a
human way of thinking. God can come to us the way He wishes.
It’s not cannibalism but Our Lord says it is Him totally?
How are you going take that? Only one way. By faith!!!!!!
Seeee...He wants you to believe He is there without seeing
a change in the consecrated bread. You have to accept totally on faith He means what He says...”This IS My Body.”
If I read the first Christians, some who were taught by
the Apostles believed in the Eucharist. I would change.
I would not care what family or friends thought....ever.
blessings to you CYC,
stpio
If you think Jesus is speaking symbolically here when He says that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood, then you must also conclude that Jesus’ death on the cross was symbolic...it wasn’t really Jesus hanging up there...it was symbolic flesh and symbolic blood.
“That’s hardly so. We mix idioms, metaphors, symbolic and actual in our speech, often in the same sentence. Example:
I could say, ‘It’s winter and the wolf is at the door.’, but no one would expect to see an animal on the door step.”
~ ~ ~
Explain why Jesus didn’t say “This IS a SYMBOL of My body?”
Why did He not run after the disbelieving followers and correct them? Stating “no you are wrong, don’t go away, I was speaking symbolically, I was using a metaphor.”
Christians believed until the objection in the 16th century.
People who left the faith could not confect the Eucharist so they now called the Real Presence a “symbol” and/or a “remembrance” of Christ’s death on the Cross.
Thank you so much for replying to the question. The apologist who asked the question is John Martignoni.
“They are also “preaching to the choir” in an attempt to stave off any doubts and questions that may arise to the legitimate and Scriptural arguments we present.”
~ ~ ~
There has been no proof or evidence given, only reference
to other verses misinterpreted. Where is the “water” in the Protestant definition of “Born Again?” Our Lord said
you need water and God the Holy Spirit.
Mixing Protestant belief with a few quotes from Catholic writings to prove Protestantism. Riiigght. How about Baptism?
Show the Apostolic Fathers believed the modern “altar call” is Our Lord’s definition of being “born again.”
People who disbelieve, show no faith, sometimes God brings about a miracle to change their hearts.
Listen to this account. A scientist describes what was
found in the testing and study of a modern Eucharistic miracle in Argentina. It’s marvelous, there are miracles within a miracle and actually connected to a miracle centuries ago!
There are 900,000 plus views. Take the time, you’ll hear
why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbg_dhI4XCs
Ned Dougherty receives messages on the first or second of
each month. I like that he is a guy, there are more female
messengers, seers.
I didn’t know until a couple of minute ago, the June message is about the Eucharist. Jesus mentions fallen away Catholics. If you are one who doubts or rejects the Eucharist, pray, ask Our Lord, He will help you belief.
You don’t have to be Catholic, anyone can pray before Our Lord in the Tabernacle centered on the altar or before the monstrance in a Eucharistic Adoration Chapel.
If the Church is locked, someone in the Parish office will let you in, go speak to them. The Adoration Chapel is usually open during the day. Often times, you need to know the password for the electronic lock for evening visits to the Adoration Chapel.
{ { {
June 1, 2012 - Jesus the Redeemer
Eucharistic Chapel, St. Clement’s Parish Church, Santa Monica, California at 8:45am
Message from Jesus the Redeemer – during Eucharistic Adoration
I come to you today as Redeemer at a time in this world when the Heavenly Plan of the Father calls for a purging of all of the evil that has permeated the Earth for too many years now. You are certainly carrying a heavy heart as are many of your brothers and sisters, who have chosen to follow Me as your Redeemer and Saviour.
You are entering into a period of time now when great persecutions of my Church will begin and you are now only seeing the beginning of the terrible plans that have been wrought by my enemy, the prince of darkness.
However, I ask you to fear not, for I am here with you. Am I not? Many of you have begun to have your doubts due to all the confusion and chaos that has been taking place in your world. Many of you are sensing with a heavy heart that the world is not the same as it once was years ago, nigh, even months and weeks ago. This is because the world is going through the birth pains of the transformation of the Earth to a New Heaven and a New Earth.
As you have been told many times, the journey through these times is going to be very painful for all of your brothers and sisters here on the planet. Most of all, it is going to be difficult for you who have faith, for your faith is going to be challenged now more than ever before. This may not be surprising for many of you who have been preparing for these end times, but having faith and knowledge, and then to be tested so harshly, can have a debilitating effect on even the most faithful of you.
Keep in mind the importance of your journey during these times. No one said that it was going to be easy, and you know that. So you must refocus yourselves on the importance of the events that are taking place, and not to allow yourselves to be caught up in the turmoil and chaos of the world. Now is the time for you to focus your energies on the most important connection that you have with Me as the Redeemer of the world.
Before you, my son, is the Holy Eucharist, the GREATEST GIFT that has been bestowed upon humanity by the plan of the Father in Heaven. I must emphasize the importance to all of you to recognize that the reception of the Holy Eucharist and the Adoration of the Holy Eucharist is the greatest form of prayer that has been bestowed upon humanity.
Alas, though the Holy Eucharist has been under attack even by forces within My own Church, you must continue to recognize that the Holy Eucharist is the physical manifestation of the sacrifice that I, as the Son of the Father, made here on Earth 2000 years ago. The Holy Eucharist has survived through all of these years despite all of the attacks against the Body and Blood of your Lord and Saviour. And now in these End Times, these attacks by the evil one will become greater than ever before, for the evil one knows that his days are short and that he is living out his last gasps of breath trying to destroy humanity.
So now, my sons and daughters, you must become ever more vigilant to protect the Holy Eucharist and the adoration of the Holy Eucharist in my Churches throughout the world. In these End Times, I am asking all of you to increase you participation in the reception of the Holy Eucharist, as well as to increase your attendance at my Churches throughout the world that recognize the importance of Eucharistic Adoration.
In these End Times, the evil one is mustering all of his weapons and deceptions to destroy as many souls as he can, and the greatest weapon to defeat his plan is the Holy Eucharist.
I call all of you, my sons and daughters, to reach out to your family members and friends, particularly to those who have fallen away from the Church. Many of them are going through great struggles in their lives, just as all of you are. However, you must demonstrate to them the importance of the reception and the adoration of the Holy Eucharist to all of you in these end times.
Do as I say, and increase your participation in the Holy Eucharist, and you will begin to see that your problems that now seem so insurmountable will become more manageable and wither away, if you allow yourselves to come closer to Me through the reception of and adoration of the Holy Eucharist.
As I have told you before, these are trying and challenging times, and I, as your Lord and Saviour, only hope to make the journey easier for you by doing the simple things that I ask you to do. Follow me and you will be rewarded for all of eternity. Thanks be to the Eternal Plan of your Father in Heaven.
Message ended 9:16am
Why should he? He had said, “Take eat this is (estin) my body.”
“Why did He not run after the disbelieving followers and correct them? Stating “no you are wrong, don’t go away, I was speaking symbolically, I was using a metaphor.”
Again, why should he? He didn't go after the wealthy man that was keeping all the commandments but just couldn't part with his wealth. Jesus didn't go back to the ungrateful men he had cured of blindness, did he?
In each case those who went no further displayed their unwillingness to grow in faith.
All displayed a degree of hard heartedness so unlike the Samaritan women or the disciples that stayed with Jesus.
Groups like the Waldens that could not “confect” had murderous crusades launched against them by the Catholic Church.
And it was Jesus that called that last meal a remembrance, “Keeping do this in remembrance (not thanksgiving) of me”.
In that case she would have been speaking of all of us who are part of the body of Christ, those of us who have been “called out” and part of the “congregation” or “assembly” in various places around the world. Since there is no word in the New Testament that means “church” and no where did Christ or the apostles establish a ruling authority on earth for the universal body of believers those of us who confidently rely on the words of scripture and testified to by the Holy Spirit are “one in Christ”.
They did not remove the cup, 99% of all the Masses I have attended throughout Catholic Churches in the US offer the cup. I have only seen a rare occasion when it's not offered
John 6:53-58 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
OK, this is the passage that Catholics use to justify transubstantiation. Why do Catholics die? Jesus said that whoever ate (Catholics say it must be done physically) would never die. If someone is going to be consistent in their Bible interpretation then it must mean that whoever physically eats of the physical body and blood of Jesus will never physically die.
It is the height of hypocrisy and points to deception to interpret verses literally or not on a line by line basis. It violates general principles of interpretation of ANYTHING, much less Scripture.
So then the question becomes, if one is going to interpret literally or not on a line by line basis, what is the criteria one uses to determine how a particular verse or part of verse should be taken literally or not?
What about the following here? Is this literal or metaphor?
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
John 6:68-69 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
Peter did not say that Jesus had the bread of eternal life. HE knew what was really going on, just like the rest of us believers.
But they DID NOT drink its blood. They were forbidden to do so. It was to be applied to the doorposts of the house.
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