Evangelicals Becoming Catholic, why?

CatholicConvert.com ^ | May 10, 2011 | Steve Ray

[Salvation]

Evangelicals Becoming Catholic, why?

by Steve Ray on May 10, 2011

 

Below is an interesting YouTube video (really audio) of an Evangelical Radio show in which two Evangelicals discuss why so many Evangelical Protestants are leaving to join the Catholic Church.

The host and guest are trying to be honest in the show entitled  “Why Evangelicals are Returning to Rome.” Although towards the end of the video they are making some statements that are historically inaccurate (about Luther and the Popes); nevertheless, their questioning tries to be honest. It is interesting that they are taking note of a large exodus. I am one of those who Crossed the Tiber to Rome.

Furthermore, this was coming from a Protestant network that is decidedly anti-Catholic.  They are willing to discuss openly what has been happening for years now (the exodus of Evangelical ordained ministers to Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches).  They also mention briefly EWTN, the program Journey Home and the moderator Marcus Grodi, a convert from Evangelical Christianity. It is obvious this is all new to them since they didn’t even know how to pronounce Marcus Grodi’s name.

The moderator Ingrid Slater asked Pastor Bob DeWay; “Let’s talk about the problem; what do you think is the seed bed (this is sort of a rhetorical question; everybody knows what a mess Evangelicalism is as a whole today doctrinally speaking).  What is setting people up for this disenchantment and the willingness to look to Roman Catholicism?”

Here are some of the Problems that Bob Deway lists, though they really have no explanation since they are blind to the real problems within Protestantism, which are things that cannot be fixed. If they were fixed they would be Catholics.
(1) The Seeker Movement took the Bible out of churches.
(2) People are not steeped in solid Bible teaching (yeah, but according to whose interpretation?).
(3) Big churches that don’t preach the Bible (who decides what should be taught??).
(4) The influx of mystical practices, contemplative prayer, the labyrinths.
(5) Seminaries that are training therapeutic practitioners rather than theologians.
(6) The idea that we have to have to justify our practices and beliefs from Scripture – according to what Luther and the other reformers – which has now been overlooked.

The moderator then mentioned a book saying, “Coming Home by Fr Peter [Eastern Rite] (I am not even going to use the term father). . . He used to head up Campus Crusade here in the Midwest” Evidently he is now heading up an organization helping Evangelical ministers come into the Eastern rite Churches.  If you want to know why he made his move from Evangelical Protestantism you can listen to the video.

For years you’d hear Evangelicals boast of the fact that their churches were filled [with] ex-Catholics.  But in too many cases the Evangelical churches are just the exit ramp that eventually leaves them disillusioned and abandoning the faith altogether. Now the tide is changing.  Some Evangelicals seem to be oblivious to the fact of this large exodus of Evangelical ministers and lay people.

A year ago, Karl Keating of Catholic Answers Live said he believed there were now more Evangelicals or Fundamentalists leaving Protestantism to become Catholic than the other way around. Even Evangelicals admit that there are notable Protestants becoming Catholics but no notable Catholics becoming Protestants.

I could take exception to several of Pastor Bob’s statements and argue decisively against them, but that is not the point of my posting this video.

[johngrace]

Malachi 1:

11 "My name will be great among the nations, from where the sun rises to where it sets. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to me, because my name will be great among the nations,” says the Lord Almighty"

This verse is brought up by Justin Martyr who met one or two of the apostles as a boy. He uses this to talk about the Mass being perpetual from Holy Thursday when Christ initiated it. Totally amazing. It is one of many things that brought me back to the Church.

Especially when I see the priest using the incense with the priest offering the bread above his head looking above. Also along the reasoning is also there was only one temple for offerings in the old testament.

So how could this be in Malachi unless it is the Mass offering which has been continual for Two thousand years. Notice in every place too. There are churches on every continent. This fills the bill on this prophecy.

[johngrace]

So sorry! Double post.

[stpio]

Paul gets trashed, disbelieved because his words are too
hard to hear. Paul is speaking of the most Holy Eucharist.

1 Corinthians 11:29
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the BODY of the Lord.

And on the various Bible interpretations even some of the modern Catholic Bibles. There are changes. If you can’t read Latin, the closest to Our Lord’s words would be the English translation of the first Bible, St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate, called the Douay-Rheims Bible.

http://www.drbo.org/

A brilliant Catholic apologist, John Salsa recommends the
Douay-Rheims.

[Natural Law]

"Evidently that is normal for Catholics since the majority of them vote for Pelosi and Biden and their party platform, in support of their decisions."

There are over 34 million registered Catholic voters in this country. President Obama got 12 million Catholic votes, or 54% of the votes cast by Catholics. The story no one talks about is the fact that Obama only got a little more than 1/3 of the actual Catholic vote with the an equal number of Catholics voting for "none of the above". I have no reason to believe it is any different in congressional elections.

[stpio]

“Malachi 1:

11 “My name will be great among the nations, from where the sun rises to where it sets. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to me, because my name will be great among the nations,” says the Lord Almighty”

This verse is brought up by Justin Martyr who met one or two of the apostles as a boy. He uses this to talk about the Mass being perpetual from Holy Thursday when Christ initiated it. Totally amazing. It is one of many things that brought me back to the Church.

Especially when I see the priest using the incense with the priest offering the bread above his head looking above. Also along the reasoning is also there was only one temple for offerings in the old testament.

So how could this be in Malachi unless it is the Mass offering which has been continual for Two thousand years. Notice in every place too. There are churches on every continent. This fills the bill on this prophecy.”

~ ~ ~

You say it so well, better than I can. I was gone from
the faith most of my adult life. I didn’t understand about
the Eucharist (40 plus years of bad catechesis). But, when I finally did by a “grace”, I can see why they are so many martyrs for the Eucharist.

I wish, I pray, our brothers and sisters in Christ would ask
Our Lord in prayer, are you truly present in the Catholic
consecrated host?

[johngrace]

Here is the original Justin Martyr statements:

" Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachias, one of the twelve, as follows: 'I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices from your hands; for from the rising of the sun until its setting, my name has been glorified among the gentiles; and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a clean offering: for great is my name among the gentiles, says the Lord; but you profane it.'"

"It is of the sacrifices offered to Him in every place by us, the gentiles, that is, of the Bread of the Eucharist and likewise of the cup of the Eucharist, that He speaks at that time; and He says that we glorify His name, while you profane it."

-"Dialogue with Trypho", [41: 8-10]

"God has therefore announced in advance that all the sacrifices offered in His name, which Jesus Christ offered, that is, in the Eucharist of the Bread and of the Chalice, which are offered by us Christians in every part of the world, are pleasing to Him."

First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

All going back to Malachi 1

11 For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.

[johngrace]

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

[TheThirdRuffian]

“Excellent point. However, if I find out that they are a baptized Catholic, I will always invite them to the next Mass, evening with Faith Formation 101, Sctiputre Study, or whatever.”

Sure. As a practical matter I’d take an on-fire-for-Christ Baptist for a son-in-law, neighbor, or friend, over a CINO liberal any day.

Sure, I might prefer a on-fire-for-Christ Catholic, but at this point in time in history, I’m willing to make do.

[Scoutdad]

I’m afraid we’ll never really see eye to eye. God, through his Word and the Holy Spirit gave/gives direction to us, His children. He gave us an outline, although not overly detailed, of the structure of the local church with the offices of deacons and elders, and the various offices (apostle/prophet/ teacher/evangelist/pastor). You seem to think that “Evangelicals” can believe and act on whatever grabs them. Well, my friend, that’s exactly why the Lord established these offices, to direct believers. Are there differences between say, a Baptist or Presbyterian, yes. Do those differences go to the critical issues of the Christian faith? No.

I think we all, whether Baptist, Presbyterian or Catholic hold to the basic tenets of the faith - our sinfulness, the deity of Christ, the blood atonement and resurrection and salvation through faith in the propitiating work of Christ. As Paul said in I Corinthians, “I am determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” This is the heart of the Gospel message and the true heart of God. You disparage great men of the faith when you say that people like Billy Graham or George Muller were following themselves and their experiences when they went out and did great things for God, similar to Savonarola, when he opposed the curia for the corruption in their ranks and St. Francis, who marched through the ranks of the Muslim Saracens and presented himself to the Sultan in an attempt to present the Gospel.

What do these men have in common? It appears that they all accomplished great things under the prompting of the Holy Spirit. It wasn’t feelings or education or reason that drove these men, it was obedience to God. And I daresay that the Lord gave each one of them a strong knowledge of the Word and wise, strong men to provide Godly counsel. There is NOTHING similar between those clowns and men who conduct lives pleasing to the Lord.

[Natural Law]

"I’m afraid we’ll never really see eye to eye. God, through his Word and the Holy Spirit gave/gives direction to us, His children."

You are right, we will never agree. Because there are, by some counts, over 30,000 denominations of Protestants, differentiated by doctrinal and interpretation issues, one has to believe that either the Holy Spirit is whispering different things to different people or many of His children are following an errant theology taught by errant leaders.

[murron]

My pastor one Sunday advised those who are married outside the Church to keep attending Mass regularly even though they cannot receive Communion. He said that they still benefit from attending Mass, and that one day circumstances in their lives may change and they can marry in the Church and begin receiving Holy Communion once again. My sister was married outside of the Church 25 years ago, and she and her husband, who is not Catholic, both attend Mass every Sunday without fail.

[murron]

My husband was very upset when he heard that 53% of Catholics voted for Obama in 2008. I tried to explain to him that many people identify themselves as Catholics because they were baptized Catholic but are not practicing Catholics or who do not follow Church teachings. I suspect that there were many of those who were included in the 53%. Not one person in my family, who are all Catholics, voted for Obama.

[murron]

I am Catholic and consider Biden and Pelosi CINOs (Catholics in name only). I would never vote for either of them or anyone of their ilk.

[daniel1212]

“When you go around take old 12 th century statements from a Pope you are lawyering it up my brother. Nowhere in the statement does it mean what you are trying to prove.”

Sorry, but there is a disconnect here. You were responding to the survey data, and i do not know where 12th century statements fit in.

But as for showing contrasts via historical quotes, that is entirely fitting in response to the oft repeated emphasis upon consistency and history by RCS, as a premise for the authenticity of their supremacist exclusivist claims. If we are going to make such, then we should not complain when they are fairly challenged.

[daniel1212]

Unlike your your SSPX brethren, i do doctrinally hold that the sign gifts have not ceased, that God can do as He ever did, but that such claims are subject to testing by Scripture, which reproves Rome, while your own brethren have question you.

[MarkBsnr]

Paul himself was a “pushy guy with a chip on his shoulder”, and a large “inferiority complex a mile wide,”

Well, God thought he was just perfect for spreading the Good News, The Gospel - He could have picked anyone and He picked Paul.

God picked a lot more than Paul - before and since. But certainly God did pick him. That does not diminish or dismiss anything of what I said.

He knew his heart, his undying obedience and unending search for Truth and Gospel first. So much for what 'man thinks'.

I take it that you are unfamiliar with Paul's conversion. Paul was not seeking for the Truth or the Gospel. He was an upper class Pharisee, bent on destroying it. He did not search for them - God revealed it to him. You appear to have gotten everything in your first sentence wrong.

So much for the thinking that went into your post, man.

When Mark gets shipwrecked, beaten and left for dead and thrown in jail for the Gospel sake - perhaps he has earned the right to speak about an inferiority complex and one being pushy.

Why don't you read Acts and Paul's Epistles and see where Paul himself says these things. The passages where he laments how the Council of Jerusalem thinks of him as less and all through the account of his Apostleship, he recounts over and over how pushy he was and how many times he got run out of town or escaped by the skin of his teeth by his own actions.

I am not making judgement on Paul - he is making the case upon himself.

I love how the Bahble Bleevers don't get what the Bible actually says. But then, I think of Paul and all the Apostles as real men with real emotions, motivations and with all the boldness, fear, caution, and devotion that comes with being a man. I don't think of Paul as a god or demiurge.

I believe that Paul was a great bishop of the Church and largely responsible for selling the Church to the Greeks and bringing Jews into the fold. I do not believe in Paul being the successor of Christ and the one to whom Christians must turn - that is the legacy of the Reformational evil that was loosed upon the world.

[MarkBsnr]

To my shame, I am one of them.

&&& Oh, my, there is not shame but joy in your coming back. Welcome, FRiend.

Thank you. I came back more than 15 years ago; it is something that I will confess to the Almighty on my Judgement - that I left in the first place, and I pray He forgives me for it.

[MarkBsnr]

"How else can you explain multiple versions of each book; further, how else can you explain the selection of which particular version?"

What is the color of the robe the Roman Soldiers placed upon Jesus? Was it Scarlet (Matthew), Purple (Mark & John) or White / Brilliant (Luke)? Each color is symbolic, but different in meaning.

Same with the inscription above His head. Same with the events on Resurrection Sunday.

We Catholics use the operand 'and'. Our separated brethren use the operand 'or', and select which 'or' based upon what they happen to believe or would like to believe at the moment.

[MarkBsnr]

“My point is that Paul’s Epistles did not ‘have’ to be massaged, and I never said that.”

I understood that in the light of your statement that “If these were the best (after massaging), then what were the worst?” Meaning (i presumed, sorry if wrongly so) that Paul’s words were in need of redactors to make them acceptable or conformable, and your response was to Kosta’s allegation that “Paul’s writings are clearly “harmonized” in the Nicene Creed in the beginning (where it adds to Paul’s words that the Father and the Son are of the same essence) as well as in the part where it says that Christ raised himself (rather than being raised by God, as Paul says), indicating that Paul was “close” but not on the mark.”

The selection process was rather secretive and we do not have the options, nor do we have the texts of those options. Clearly there was poor copying. There was also pseudoepigraphy - if Peter's Epistles were written in the second century, then they certainly reflected the Church's (or the writer's) thoughts at the moment. We don't know if the Council at Nicea had any originals. If not, then what did they have?

With all that said, we still believe that the Holy Spirit guided these bishops into all Truth and they selected the books of the NT.

The existence of multiple versions of each NT book does not necessitate that this was due to deficiency in Paul’s writing, and thus needing redactors, but it certainly could be due to poor copying and subsequent attempts to reconcile them, but i reject that this was due to attempts to make each selected NT book to conflate with each other as originally penned.

That is a valid speculation, however we have no idea if the Council had the originals in the first place, so we cannot place any order or odds upon the realities of that or similar speculations.

[ansel12]

Catholic Conservatives can assume that it was a good thing that the registered Catholic voters that did not vote, did not vote, a reasonable guess is that they would have gone more than 54% for Obama, let the non-voters and non-absentee voters, stay home. The Democrats know what they are doing when they try to drag them to the voting booths.