Posted on 04/26/2012 9:19:07 PM PDT by Salvation
Jesus calls and commands ALL, be they alone or in a family to witness to all for the good news of the GOSPEL.
Great story about your mother.
I’ve told both the JWs and the Mormons, sure I’ll listent to you (and I don’t move from the front step) and then I will be glad to invite you in and answer all your questions about Catholicism over a cup of coffee/tea/water — depended on the weather.
They always refused and then stopped coming by.
This is rich...A religion which claims that the mother of Jesus is the Queen of Heaven... That the mother provides salvation and grace and that all prayers must go thru the mother...And then criticize another religion that doesn't believe that there are 4 members of the household of God in heaven, but just one...
Yep, that's rich...
I read that book I think twice at around the time one of them came to the door. I think Walter Martin gave me the confidence to debate that person at the time. I like that Walter Martin book. Great book!
INDEED.
THX THX.
That the mother provides salvation and grace and that all prayers must go thru the mother
(1) Nothing in the Catechism says that "all prayers must go through Mary". Where are you getting this from? It's not Catholic dogma. Read through the prayers of the Mass (sadly not available on the net for copyright reasons) sometime ... Mary is barely mentioned. The consecration of the Eucharist ends with the priest elevating the sacrament above the altar and singing, "Through Him, with Him, and in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor are yours, Almighty Father, forever and ever". Sounds like a Trinitarian prayer to me.
(2) If Mary "provides salvation and grace," she does so through her Son.
And then criticize another religion that doesn't believe that there are 4 members of the household of God in heaven, but just one.
There are millions or billions of "members of the household of God" in heaven, not one. That's what heaven is. But perhaps you don't actually believe in the Scriptural understanding of heaven.
Yep, that's rich.
What's "rich" is that you two take the side of an anti-Christian cult, which teaches that you two are part of the whore of Babylon, that Jesus is the incarnation of the archangel Michael, and that only 144,000 members of the generation alive in 1914 get to go to heaven ... over and against the Catholic Church, which unhesitatingly preaches the Triune God of the Scriptures and hopes to see both of you in heaven.
That's rich.
As the Ferraro devotional documents, MANY RC leaders and organizational 'stars' have attested to such a blasphemous outrage as truth--with the organization's ALMOST total blessing.
Certainly without the RCC or its Magisterical censoring such assertions.
But WITH a LOT of repeated pontificating and glorifying of such assertions . . . for decades and often centuries for such ilk.
The appeal to the Catechism as the definer of RCC truth is wholesale farcical.
1. The Catechism is a mess and covers all sides of a long list of issues--providing so much wiggle room for believing at least a couple sides of many big issues as to be grossly and embarrassingly absurd. It boggles my mind that thinking bright folks would appeal to that tome as a justification for any purportedly solid, rational belief.
2. REGARDLESS of what the Catechism says, THE PONTIFICATIONS AND PRACTICES from the Pope and the Vatican itself down to the local parish are flagrantly, routinely and relentlessly of the ilk that Mary is part of the God-head and at least Jr manager of all things spiritual and Salvific. What blasphemy.
Oh, I know about the proffered test cases of this or that group of Nuns that got censored or even excommunicated for some brazen Maryolitry. Stack that up against many 100's of THOUSANDS of examples on the opposite side of the ledger and it's laughable.
In short, the chronic practices of a huge chunk of the organization's faithful AND THEIR LEADERS mirror the worst of the classical pontifications in Ferraro's book.
And, as with everyone, Y'ALL'S ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN YOUR WORDS, TOO.
The nonsense about Ferraro's book being hyperbole doesn't wash either. WORDS MATTER. The UNMODIFIED original 10 COMMANDMENTS MATTER.
Exodus 20:1-17
God didn't leave wiggle room in HIS #1 & 2. The RCC's Magisterical revisionist version NEVER received Heaven's approval in the least. .
.
.
Here's the title:
And it carries the official sanctions of:
ni•hil ob•stat
n.
1. Roman Catholic Church An attestation by a church censor that a book contains nothing damaging to faith or morals.
2. Official approval, especially of an artistic work.
WITH RICHARD CARDINAL CUSHING’S IMPRIMATUR
Let me track down the brief portion of quotes upthread . . .
Here they are:
However, as we've seen through a variety of sources--a pile of them in Ferraro's manual about the Rosary--the Roman Catholic et al/Vatican Edifice disagrees with a lot of the claims of RC's hereon to the contrary.
p.32
.
[Quixicated emphases below]
Mary is crowned Queen of heaven and earth, dispenser of all graces . . .
p32
4 - She became Queen of Purgatory, where she exercises her power as mediatrix in behalf of these suffering souls.
5 - She became Queen of us sinners, to assist us through the dangers of this life and to help us in difficulties.
6 - She became the ruler of hell, that trembles at her slightest gaze and is defeated by her power.
"Just as a rock extracted from earth will precipitate into the abyss, so will man, left without Mary's help, quickly slide toward hell." --Richard of St Victor
p37
Sacred Heart of Jesus, Thy kingdom come; Thy kingdom come through Mary! --Partial Indulgence
p41
"Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who hold her fast." --Prov. 3:18
p43
1 - "Hail Mary, beloved daughter of the Father, Mother of the Divine Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, complement of the most august Trinity!"
p45
6 - To her was granted grace greater than that conferred upon all others, 'that she might vanquish sin in every respect.'
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's vanquishing sin was unnecessary--or ineffectual without Mary's assistance?]
p46
7 - "Mary is the dawn of God because, just as the dawn marks the end of darkness and the beginning of day, so Mary indicates the end of vices and the beginning of virtue."
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's conquering on The Cross and HIS conquering trip to hell were unncessary?]
9 - God loved Mary so much that He gave her the keys to His heart. 'No one can go to God without Mary drawing him.'
.
[Qx: I guess Holy Spirit has been relegated to a 'Walter Mitty' role as spouse of Mary? That's SOME POWER to cancel & take over HOLY SPIRIT'S role to draw men to God!]
p47
4 - "Mary, trusting in the word of the angel, destroyed the sin Eve committed by trusting in the serpent.'
.
[Qx: Evidently, she beat Christ to the job of vanquishing sin!]
5 - "She desired the safety of everyone, went in search of it, and obtained it; it was also through her that this salvation was wrought."
.
[QX: What an unnecessary waste of precious Blood and suffering on THE CROSS!!!/sar]
p47
10 - "As Noah's Ark saved all the animals that entered it, so Mary saves all the souls that entrust themselves to her care."
p50
8 - "If she were not so holy as she is, how could God appoint her to be the ladder of Paradise, the advocate of the world, meatrix between HIm and us?"
p50
4 - "By becoming Mother of God, Mary belongs to the order of hypostatic union; hence she participates IN the infinite sanctity of God."
Quix, you do seem to shout quite a bit in your written comments.
There are Catholic sites on the web that will explain The Blessed Mother to you if you wish to look at them.
I don’t know who you be? Are you a Jehovah Witness or just someone that ‘Shouts’ about the Mother of Jesus (our Mother too)?
There seem to be some catholics ‘chomping at the bit’ to witness to Jehovah Witnesses but they let you get the last word in. What’s up with that?
I’m Irish & willing to talk to folks for a bit. Why you be ranting so about the Virgin-Mary (Mother of Jesus) and all of us Roman Catholics & the Roman Catholic Church?
Are you a Christian? or a Jehovah Witness?
This meant with true >kindness. Please look at how your comment is presented on a Catholic thread. It doesn’t look very friendly at all!
How about Bible verses as a closing prayer. Colossians 3: 8-17, “But now you must put them all away: >anger, fury, malice, slander, and obscene language out of your mouths.
Stop lying to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed, for knowledge, in the image of its creator. Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all and in all.
Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, bearing with one another and forgiving one another, if one has a grievance against another; as the Lord has forgiven you, so must you also do.
And over all these put on love, that is, the bond of perfection. And let the peace of Christ control your hearts, the peace into which you were also called in one body. And be thankful.
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, as in all wisdom you teach and admonish one another, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
And whatever you do, in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.”
My advice Quix, learn to pray the Mysteries of the Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary; pray it daily> “then the peace of God that surpasses all understanding will guard your heart and mind in Christ Jesus.”
NOPE.
The outrageous blasphemies and idolatries in Ferraro’s devotional are worth a lot more than CAPS and colors in protest.
The biggest fuss possible over such UnBiblical hideousness is still an inadequate protest, yet the most loving response possible.
Ex 20:3
New International Version (©1984)
“You shall have no other gods before me.
New Living Translation (©2007)
“You must not have any other god but me.
English Standard Version (©2001)
“You shall have no other gods before me.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“You shall have no other gods before Me.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Ex 20:4
New International Version (©1984)
“You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
New Living Translation (©2007)
“You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea.
English Standard Version (©2001)
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Ex23:5
New International Version (©1984)
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
New Living Translation (©2007)
You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me.
English Standard Version (©2001)
You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
20:6
New International Version (©1984)
but showing love to a thousand [generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.
New Living Translation (©2007)
But I lavish unfailing love for a thousand generations on those who love me and obey my commands.
English Standard Version (©2001)
but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
But I show mercy to thousands of generations of those who love me and obey my commandments.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
In view of the above Scriptures, any molly coddling of the outrages in Ferraro’s book would be unloving.
Of course, I’m NOT a JW. I believe the authentic Bible cover to cover.
BTW, The idea that RC’s don’t teach that prayers must go through Mary needed a fitting response.
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that a person >can pray >directly to Jesus.
Does your church have what is called a >prayer chain?
That’s where people pray for each other or they all pray to God for something they want. Sometimes they will meet and all pray together. &Sometimes they contact each other through the >telephone. It’s called a ‘prayer-chain’ because when one person is contacted, that person is responsible for contacting other people.
For instance, I can ask you to pray for me. That’s perfectly acceptable in the Catholic Church & in a lot of other Protestant churches. (By-the-way, please pray for me.)
The Catholic Church teaches there is only >One Church. All the Souls (Saints) in Heaven & all the people living on earth who are in a state of >grace are all in the Church of Jesus Christ.
When Catholics ‘pray’ to Mary, they just including her in the prayer-chain. If Mary had a telephone, ALL Catholics would be calling her up constantly. But, ‘There ain’t no phone lines up to Heaven’ except through >prayer. That’s how we ALL talk to everyone in Heaven including the Upper Management of the Catholic Church (Father, Son & Holy Spirit).
It’s in the Bible that we ALL become “Brothers & Sisters” with one another & brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. It’s part of God’s Mercy.
The Virgin-Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ. He is both True-man & True-God. Obviously, Mary did NOT “create” Jesus=eternal=God. But, she did give birth to Jesus in the form of His >humanity.
Elizabeth: “filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, ‘Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my >Lord should come to me?”
In the 10 commandments we are obligated to honor God. We are obligated to honor our earthly father & mother.
Catholics >rightly teach that as we become >brothers with Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary becomes our mother too through the action of the Holy Spirit infusing us with God’s grace.
A lot of people outside the Catholic Church look upon >Roman Catholics as >worshipping The Virgin-Mary. That’s incorrect; Catholics are just honoring her for being our mother too through Jesus Christ.
+Mary is due honor from ALL Christians for saying YES to God. “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.”
I’ll admit that, at times the ‘flowery’ language of the praises for Mary may seem a bit too much to >non-Catholics. But, ALL Roman Catholics >start with the basic teaching of the Catholic Church: Mary is a creature like us.
She was chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus. (That’s a real good recommendation as to her Virtue.)
To say Mary is in a, >Mysterious way, is the mediator of ALL graces is correct. The Virgin Mary said, “Yes” to God. Jesus was conceived in her womb & his ‘whole’ human life was entrusted to >Mary. She raised Jesus from conception to when He reached the age where He could care from himself. (By-the-way, Quix, please say >Thank-you to your mother. Do it today either by telephone or prayer.)
Mary is a >creature like all of us. But without Mary as The Blessed Mother, Jesus as we know him today would NOT exist. Maybe, God would have found someone else to be His mother; But that is simply conjecture (like how many angels can dance on a pin.).
We know for certain, Jesus Christ decided the Virgin-Mary was going to be his mother. It’s in the human-heart, ‘Perfect Mother = Perfect Child.’ God is perfect. >But part of the mystery of the incarnation is God also wanted a >Perfect Mother.
Jesus Christ is the >True Mediator of ALL graces. But, he acted through Mary to have a human-body here on Earth.
Repeat: Jesus Christ is the >True Mediator of ALL graces; He acted through His mother as part of His salvation plan: The incarnation, life, ministry on earth & death on the Cross.
Repeat: Jesus Christ according to the Catholic Church is the True Mediator of ALL graces. ALL of creation came about through the Word of God = Jesus Christ. (Jesus = Humanity needed Mary to say YES.)
A prayer for ALL of humanity = Thank you Mary for saying, “Yes to God.”
Everyone has a vocation. Are you, Quix, upset with Televangelists when they take telephone calls from people in the audience & then send the messages up to Heaven to Jesus. They in a mysterious way also are ‘mediators’ between the faithful & Jesus.
I’m a Roman Catholic & I go to Church as required. +I pray daily.
What is your Religion? Do you go to Church? If it’s a small Church that gives away your location, obviously, you don’t have tell it.
The reason I ask: I found that on freerepublic, I can end up discussing Christianity with someone that sits at home on Sunday in their own armchair church. They seem to interpret the Bible as to whatever suits their fancy that day?
Roman Catholics teach >everyone in the entire world is given sufficient grace & opportunity to get into Heaven. In Mathew 25: 39-46, God sets out who will get into Heaven in the ordinary course of events. Please notice that God is looking for acts of Mercy.
The good-thief on the Cross also teaches ALL of us, that when a person is at >death’s door, a >direct appeal to God can get a person into Heaven. The Catholic Church recognizes this possibility.
The summary is: “Please be polite about the Virgin-Mary as she is >our Mother too!” +On Judgment Day, we will stand before Jesus Christ. = Jesus doesn’t want anyone ‘talkin’ trash’ about any mother, much less HIS Mother!
I try to pray these direct prayers to God everyday:
“Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed by Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen”
“Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world with end. Amen”
“O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell; lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy. Amen”
I wanted this to be a stand alone comment about Mary. It’s not from a Catholic Catechism; it’s from me.
Some people get upset that Roman Catholics view Mary as having >special attributes & >special abilities to work on behalf of her Son = Jesus Christ.
Mary, herself, was given the vocation from GOD to take care of Jesus Christ. He was conceived in her womb & nursed at her breast. The human-body of Jesus Christ was depended on Mary for Life itself.
Then Mary taught Jesus how to be >truly-human which is the vocation all mothers have in regards to their children. Mary played ‘peek-a-boo’ with her Baby. She taught Him ‘Patty-cake baker’s man, roll it up & put it in the pan...’
Mary taught Jesus how walk & talk. She taught Him >manners. What a blessing = Perfect mother & perfect Child.
Walk into a Church for the >first time and have ‘mom’ say, ‘Indoor feet.’ >The Perfect Child NEVER ran in a Church, ever! (As a Man, He may have ran-after ‘money-changers with a whip!’)
It’s perfectly reasonable that Jesus would still give “>tasks” to Mary to HELP take care of >ALL of us. After all, Jesus gave Mary the vocation of taking care of Him. To the Mother’s Heart, it’s not a ‘job or task’ but an act of motherly love. = Mary as the Mother of Jesus is our Mother too! Mary as our >Mother wants to take care of ALL of us too!
In summary, = Tell your mother Thank You. +Ask her how many times she had to tell you: “indoor feet.”
This is a reply in regards to comment about ‘worshipping Idols’ as you repeated that particular commandment so many times.
The key is >Worship. Roman Catholics do NOT worship any idol or any of the ‘art’ work in a Catholic Church. You might be confusing a work of >art with what the Bible prohibits as to >Idol worship. The Catholic Church places objects in the Churches to depict some of the >friends&family of God. Just as many Protestants have items that depict their family&friends.
God instructed that the ‘Ark of the Covenant’ have >golden Cherubim (Angels=Heaven) above the Ark with their wings over the Mercy-Seat. This should clue everyone that the concern God has in the commandments is >worshipping idols & not works of art.
It’s possible to hear Protestant-ministers tell the faithful to ‘rest in Jesus as we rest from our works.’ The same ministers often tell the faithful to kneel down by their bedsides at night & pray to Jesus.
Do you think ALL those Protestants kneeling beside their beds are really Idol-worshipers that think their >beds are really God=Jesus because their ministers tell them: ‘They rest in Jesus?’ (It’s a serious question as you say things about Roman Catholics that can also be said about Protestants.)
I watch the Billy-Graham crusades on television. I like the altar call (even though Protestants do NOT have an altar in their churches).
Many times I have listened to Reverend Billy Graham tell how he decided to turn his entire life over to Jesus Christ. It goes something like this:
As a young man, Billy Graham attended a ‘tent-revival church service.’ He came home to his parents house. He went upstairs. In the darkness of his bedroom, Billy Graham knelt by his >bed, looked out the window to a group of >trees across the field, then looked up at the >moon in the night-sky. Billy Graham then prayed to God & turned his entire life over to Jesus Christ.
If you are curious, Roman Catholics do NOT teach: Billy Graham thought his >bed, the >trees or the >moon be god. The Roman Catholic Church recognizes that all people have ‘human dignity’ & should not be lied about or mocked.
Please watch World Youth Day in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, July 23-28, 2013<. There will be a large communion service where people answer the call from Jesus Christ. It’s similar to a ‘Protestant altar call’ except the Roman Catholic Church also has a real >altar.
NOPE.
Y’all’s words are thoroughly unconvincing.
I’ll take the Word of God over y’all’s words all the time. 24/7/365
Ya’ll’s millions of actions around the world and at the Vatican speak, scream far louder than the thousands of pages of words.
Quix, they aren’t my words. They are the >Word of God. Please read the Bible. You’ll notice Jesus Christ did NOT walk the Holy-land handing out Bibles.
Jesus Christ built a Church. History = The Roman Catholic Church is the Church established by Jesus Christ.
There is only one Church. May God bless you then Quix. Hopefully, we’ll meet in Heaven.
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