It's that old "burning in the bosom" thing.
Some folks would slit their own throats...oh wait...if they had that burning thing.
Posted on 04/26/2012 1:32:13 PM PDT by greyfoxx39
What the world calls "Mormonism" will rule every nation.
God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it.
Chief Apostle Orson Hyde
Journal of Discourses, VII, 48-53Mormonism is neither a fraternal order nor a religious association: it is a kingdom, the kingdom of God. In the words of Joseph F. Smith, sixth Prophet of the Church:
The greatest event that has ever occurred in the world, since the resurrection of the Son of God from the tomb and his ascension on high, was the coming of the Father and the Son to that boy Joseph Smith, to prepare the way for the laying of the foundation of his kingdom — not the kingdom of man — never more to cease nor to be overturned.
The kingdom "never more to cease nor to be overturned" is the messianic kingdom foreseen in the second chapter of the Book of Daniel:
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
Stated Church historian B.H. Roberts:
We are warranted in the belief, however, that it will be a tangible, bona fide government of God on earth, consisting of a king; subordinate officers; laws; subjects; and the whole earth for its territory - for its dominion.
History of the Church, Vol. I, Intro. p. xxxvi. The Mormons equate this kingdom as well with the words of Revelation 11:15: "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ: and He shall reign forever and ever."
"The kingdom is organized," wrote Brigham Young in 1844, "and although as yet no bigger than a grain of mustard seed, the little plant is in a flourishing condition and our prospects brighter than ever." Id., Vol. VII, p.381—Note. Few Americans comprehended the magnitude of the political expectations of the Mormons. "As was observed by Brother Pratt, that kingdom is actually organized and the inhabitants of the earth do not know it," stated Brigham Young on July 8,1855. "If this people know anything about it, all right; it is organized preparatory to taking effect in the due time of the Lord, and in the manner that shall please him." Id.
Joseph Smith, capitalizing on the fervor for primitive Christianity that animated the American frontier in the 1820's and 1830's, claimed that Jesus Christ Himself had chosen him to restore His original ceremonies, build up a Church to greet Him at the Second Coming, and rule the earth during the Millennium. "Flee the wrath to come" and "gather to Zion" were the watchwords of Mormon missionaries in the early days. "The missionary was confident the end of the world was hourly approaching," wrote one observer, "that soon the earth and all therein, except such as embraced Mormonism, would be destroyed, and his benevolence made him use extraordinary exertions to bring the human race within the pale that he assured them could alone save them from impending destruction." William White Smith, The Prophets (1855).
Although the Mormons argue that the church of God will be distinct from the government of God during the Millennium, this is true only in the sense that the communist party of the Soviet Union was different from the government of Russia after the revolution of 1917. Brigham Young did say that the "kingdom grows out of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but it is not the church." He also said, however, that "no one can draw the line between the government of God and the government of the children of men." History of the Church, Vol. VII, p.382; April 9, 1844. In fact, although non-Mormons may participate in the rulership of the millennial kingdom, the Mormon priesthood will control its organization and administration. The kingdom of God and the church of God will both be run by the Mormon Church - under the direction of Christ, who will pass freely back and forth "through the veil" during this period.
"What I mean by the kingdom of God," wrote Joseph F. Smith in October, 1906, "is the organization of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, over which the Son of God presides, and not man. That is what I mean." On another occasion he said, "I know that this is the kingdom of God and that God is at the helm." It is such claims that inspired Apostle Parley Pratt to say of Joseph Smith: "His work will live to endless ages. Unnumbered millions yet unborn will mention his name with honor." Grieving at the blindness of humanity in failing to recognize the nascent kingdom in their midst, Apostle Ezra Taft Benson wrote in 1948: "The history of humanity has, to a large extent, been one of groping blindly in the dark, fearing for the future and yet resisting the guiding hand of inspired men who would willingly lead mankind in the path of safety." Forward to W. Cleon Skousen, Prophecy and Modern Times (1948). At the head of the path stands Joseph Smith, holder of the keys of salvation — "keys which will unlock the door into the kingdom of God to every man who is worthy to enter and which will close that door against every soul that will not obey the law of God." It can hardly be expected that Christ will allow the governance of His kingdom to rest in the hands of those who refuse to acknowledge His chosen medium of salvation. "No man or woman in this dispensation," declared Brigham Young, "will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith." Journal of Discourses 7:289.
Well known and often cited within the church is the utterance of Joseph Smith that "the day will come when the Constitution of the United States hangs by a thread — and will be saved only by the elders of the Church." One student of Mormonism phrased this expectation somewhat differently: "They are promising their followers," wrote Bruce Kinney in 1912, "that they will in time control things politically in the United States." Mormonism: the Islam of America. Mormon political activity is rooted in the assumption that the day is coming when the American political system will collapse and the hierarchical apparatus of the Mormon Church will take its place. The Mormon Church, in this sense, is a shadow government — like the ayatollahs of Iran — only awaiting the Biblically-predicted chaos that shall sweep away American democracy and install Mormon theocracy in its place — to reign forever, "never more to be overturned." A commonly-cited scenario envisions the inevitable degeneration of the godless American polity into the anarchy envisioned by Christ in his discourse on the Mount of Olivet: "Nation shall rise up against nation and kingdom against kingdom . . . . Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents and cause them to be put to death." Mark 13:8, 12.
Joseph Smith added his own personal vision to this prophecy: "I saw men hunting the lives of their own sons, and brother murdering brother, women killing their own daughters, and daughters seeking the lives of their mothers."
The principle of "gathering to Zion as God pours out His wrath" is fundamental to Mormonism. Current policy is that Mormons should stay in their own localities, not migrate to Salt Lake City, but "build up Zion" where they live. When the time comes, however, the Prophet shall summon all Mormons everywhere to gather in to Salt Lake City for shelter while the Great Anarchy sweeps the globe. After the Great Wrath, Christ Himself shall return, appearing first in a Mormon Temple in Independence, Missouri on a plot of ground designated by Joseph Smith for this purpose. This Temple shall be the centerpiece of a holy city, the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21, which shall surround it and become the new capital of Mormonism. From it the world shall be ruled as the Mormons who fled to Salt Lake City for protection return to their hometowns and home lands as rulers and organizers of the new and everlasting theocratic kingdom. Although Christ will also appear in Jerusalem to organize the repentant and worshipful Jews into the Millennial Kingdom, the real seat of world government will be the New Jerusalem in Missouri. The two capitals will be formally co-equal, but the New Jerusalem will be the source of power, much as the Disney Corporation is to Disneyland. The new Jewish kingdom will require instruction, guidance and ultimately subordination to the Mormon authorities, for he who receives authority from another is subservient to the giver of that authority. The Jews can only receive the authentic priesthood of God from the Mormons, and therefore, must be beholden and obedient to them.
Yes, the messianic kingdom described by Isaiah is already here in embryo in Utah; the Jews shall be part of it - indeed, it cannot achieve its fullness until they do — but they will not rule it. That question was decided in 1820 when Christ appeared to Joseph Smith and gave him the Keys of the Millennium. In the 1830's one dramatic day Moses and Elijah also came to visit and invested the Prophet Joseph with their authority as well. "And it shall come to pass in the last days," reads Isaiah 2:2, "that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it." In the annotated Mormon edition of the Bible, the mountains here are the Rocky Mountains and "the Lord's house" is the Salt Lake Temple. "For out of Zion shall go forth the law" continues Isaiah, supposedly referring to the Mormon capital, "and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem," the Jewish capital.
The Mormons have quite a message for Messianic Jews — quite a message — and someday, no doubt, if they get their hands on the levers of power, they will attempt to deliver it — first as protectors of the Jews and then as their rulers.
Before the Church became a national institution and began to soften and obscure its publicly-displayed doctrines, the inevitable consolidation of all earthly power into the hands of the Mormon authorities was clearly understood. "The understanding," related Bishop Cahoon in his testimony, "was that God had established His Kingdom upon the earth, and the Mormon Church was the Kingdom of God, and all that belonged to the Mormon Church were expected to yield allegiance to that church, to that Kingdom alone, and the highest allegiance was to the Mormon Church — the Kingdom of God." An oath administered in the endowment ceremony at that time committed the priesthood to "avenge the blood of the prophets" and teach this doctrine to their children and their children's children. The Church "taught," testified Bishop Cahoon, "that this government would be overthrown, and the Kingdom of God be established on its ruins . . . . They didn't care much about the government of the United States when they had a kingdom." The comparable oath that I took in the Mormon Temple in Washington, D.C., in August, 1981 had no political overtones but did commit me to pledge all my time talent and treasure to the upbuilding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Such an oath does not leave much room for any other loyalty.
The official establishment of the government of God as distinct from the government of the Church took place in 1844 when Joseph Smith organized a secret Council of Fifty as the ruling politburo of the kingdom of God. This council encompassed non-Mormons, including Joseph Jackson, who, by his own report, was offered $3,000 by the Prophet to kill the governor of Missouri. In the days before the authority of the United States government became effective in Utah, the Council of Fifty, according to church historians Leonard J. Arrington and Davis Bitton, "began deliberations on the nature of civil government to be established in the valley." Having ruled the Salt Lake valley directly through the church, Brigham Young and his associates now decided to establish a civil government subsidiary, nominally independent of the church, called the State of Deseret. On March 8,1849, three days after the opening of the constitutional convention, a standard state constitution of the time was adopted — and an election scheduled for two months later to select officers for the new state. Ballots, however, were actually cast four days later on March 12,1849 — somewhat limiting the amount of campaigning any independent candidate might undertake. Brigham Young won the office of governor and Heber C. Kimball chief justice, both winning 100% of the ballots cast for their respective offices. The election of the temporal government of the Kingdom of God had as much resemblance to a free election as the elections conducted by the governments of Eastern Europe in 1946. This procedure was deliberate. "Every government lays the foundation of its own downfall," declared Brigham Young in 1872, "when it permits what are called democratic elections." "Remember," said the church authority who interviewed me for my worthiness to become a Mormon priest, "the Church is a theocracy, not a democracy." Any government the church creates, it creates in its own image.
All power lies with the Prophet who is God's representative on earth; his word is law. As the Prophet is to the Church, so the Bishop is to the local ward. Unlike the rabbi of a Jewish congregation, who is dependent upon the favor of the synagogue for his position, the Bishop is chosen and installed solely by his ecclesiastical superiors. The notion of "division" or "separation" of powers is anathema to Mormonism.
The members of the ward are sternly enjoined to "sustain the authorities" for this is the "only true" church of God and the officers of it God's chosen — selected by "inspiration" after "prayerful consideration," and installed by the laying on of hands. To dispute the church authorities is to defy God. And who would do that?
Thus, it is not surprising that, given the occasion and the opportunity, the Mormon hierarchy will create a civil government in the image of their church government — elections by acclamation and zealous obedience the essence of virtue. The popularity of military careers for Mormon youth is a direct outgrowth of the inculcation of these principles. That the Mormons fully expect to rule the United States and the world as well one day is, of course, a political hallucination that could never happen. If so, however, it may be expected that they will formally reverence the U.S. Constitution while simultaneously abolishing the division of powers, based on mistrust of all unchecked human authority, that underlies it. A portion of Bishop Cahoon's testimony, given in 1889, expresses the sentiments that still reign in the minds of the Mormon authorities:
Q. Did they ever teach you anything in regard to the overthrowing of the Constitution of the United States, did you ever hear that at all?
A. The Constitution of the United States would be, perhaps, an after consideration; after the government was overthrown the leaders of the Mormon Church would reform that document to suit themselves.
Q. Did you ever hear them say that the document needed reforming?
A. O, yes.
Q. You never heard it taught that that was a Divine Document?
A. O, yes, they taught that it was an inspired document, but that it would be better - eventually it would be better.
Q. Who was going to better it?
A. The priesthood of the Mormon Church.
Q. When?
A. Well, when they got it in their hands.
Q. When was that going to be?
A. Well, directly, it has been put off from time to time. They say it is pretty near now.
Q. State when and where you heard it.
A. Heard it all the while, ever since I was in the church.
To obscure the fundamental incompatibility of Mormon doctrine with democratic politics, Brigham Young made the remarkable statement: "The Constitution and laws of the United States resemble a theocracy more closely than any government now on earth." Journal of Discourses 6:342. He came slightly closer to the truth in the following statement:
Few, if any, understand what a theocratic government is. In every sense of the word, it is a republican government, and differs but little in form from our National, State, and Territorial Governments; but its subjects will recognize the will and dictation of the Almighty . . . .
Id.
There is no room for legitimate disagreement in Mormonism. Anyone who questions church practices is considered to have lost his faith in revealed truth. Such an individual must speedily repent and humble himself, begging forgiveness or he will be excommunicated. A man named Morris had the effrontery to establish his own mini-Mormonism in Utah in the days of Brigham Young, claiming to receive instructions from God as did the Mormon prophet. Brigham sent his "avenger" on horseback and shot the fledgling prophet dead in broad daylight in the presence of his followers. John Taylor, successor to Brigham Young as Prophet, made it clear that the Mormons envision no separation of church and state once they take power.
Was the kingdom that the Prophets talked about, that should be set up in the latter times, going to be a Church? Yes. And a state? Yes, it was going to be both Church and State, to rule both temporarily (sic) and spiritually.
When Utah became a state and began to elect Senators and Congressmen, some question arose as to whether a Mormon Senator would consider himself bound by his oath to support the Constitution and laws of the United States, or whether his endowment oaths of supreme loyalty to the Church would prevail. John Taylor answered as follows:
It may be asked, How can we live under the dominion and laws of the United States and be subjects of another kingdom? Because the kingdom of God is higher, and its laws are so much more exalted than those of any other nation, that it is the easiest thing in life for a servant of God to keep any of their laws and, as I have said before, this we have uniformly done.
Journal of Discourses 6:24. The Mormon leadership fully expect the American government to collapse as a prelude to their assumption of power on the American continent. "When the Lord commands it through his living prophets," writes a BYU faculty member in the June, 1976 Ensign, "the New Jerusalem will become the capital city . . . ." The Constitution will then become the responsibility of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "It is not wise to sit by and think that the protection of the Constitution is the problem of someone else at some other time," warns the Ensign. "Our commission to save the Constitution is, like salvation, a continuing task." Should the Mormon apparatus ever come to power in the United States during a period of inner turmoil, this country will become a white tyranny, the ecclesiastical mirror image of communism. "And this is the redemption of Zion," said Joseph Smith in 1841, "when the saints shall have redeemed that government and reinstated it in all its purity and glory."
The Mormons will come as saviors of the constitution, firm-willed virtuous patriots full of love for God and country. Their ecclesiastical autocracy will come wrapped in the evocative symbolism of constitutional purification.
But, of course, it could never happen here. Joseph Smith was but twenty-five years of age, full of the fire of youth, when he donned the mantle of prophethood: Brigham Young was forty-seven. There has not been a prophet under the age of sixty since. The Church is a mature businesslike institution that discourages excessive fanaticism. Its doctrines have been softened and blended to have as wide an appeal as possible. Tradition since World War II has chosen the oldest apostle for the office of Prophet. Of the five prophets since 1945, four were in their mid-seventies when chosen and the fifth over ninety. The current Prophet, Spencer W. Kimball, is eighty-seven: his two counsellors are eighty-four and eighty-five. The Church in many of its activities today displays a silly farcical spirit — a spirit I always found offensive but now view as inherent in a company of religious play actors. Gordon B. Hinckley, who was recently elevated from the Council of the Twelve Apostles to be a third counsellor to the Prophet, was active in the 1970's as an adviser to the Public Communications Department — the Church's propaganda agency. [In 1995, Hinckley became the 15th President and Prophet of the Church.] He worked, in particular, on the "subject content" for the Washington, D.C. Visitor's Center, which is attached to the Temple.
In the Washington center, life-size mannequins representing Isaiah, Nephi, Joseph Smith, and other prophets will speak their messages from the scriptures. With translucent masks and hidden rear projection, the figures will speak as living oracles.
Ensign, August, 1974.
One does not associate such Disneyland techniques with traditional religious solemnity. They remind one more of Revelation, Chapter 13: "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." Whether the Wizards of Mormon will one day install a humanoid mannequin as prophet is beyond my power to foresee. Whether or not a young ambitious technocrat prophet will be able to simulate the second coming of Christ and gather an ocean of white-robed believers to the templed Missouri hills to witness the inauguration of the Millennium is also beyond my power of prediction. A visit to the Hill Cumorah pageant staged every summer in Palmyra, New York to commemorate and re-enact Joseph Smith's discovery of the golden plates from which he translated the Book of Mormon will keep interested observers of the Millennial Kingdom up to date on the state of the art in religious pyrotechnics, while we wait patiently for the Mormon "rendezvous with our Constitution's destiny." Ensign, June, 1976.
Do you find it curious that so many FRers say,
“I used to be Baptist but talked to (whoever) prayed about it and felt the holy spirit tell me the truth of mormonism (or something similar)”
OR “I am Baptist and I will defend mormons and their beliefs because they are Christians (or something similar)”.
Just an odd observation, I guess.
Let's consider your claim Jeff. Since you seem to be denying the meaning of "half-truth", let's start with a definition:
Definition of HALF-TRUTHPlease note that Merriam Webster defines it EXACTLY as I used it. It also describes the content of what you posted quite well. As I've pointed out, your posts contain partial truths. Do you carefully choosing words to (perhaps) avoid writing anything that sounds "non-Christian"? I've asked you pointedly about those things several times to get clarification. Each time you do not answer in a forthright way. You apparently obfuscate by posting more half-truths. A half-truth is the same as a falsehood.
1: a statement that is only partially true
2: a statement that mingles truth and falsehood with deliberate intent to deceive
... Perhaps this results from mormon-blindness, since you've based your whole life on the mormon falsehood.
... Perhaps you feel you need to do so to communicate and have people think of mormonism as a Christian religion, or yourself as "normal".
I really don't know your motivation. I'm not even sure you know. My focus is only on the readers of your postings here who read what you write and make assumptions that are incomplete, because your posted testimony is not forthright about the totality of what you believe. You post much of what you believe. It is clear to anyone who reads my questions to you though, that you do not want to publicly own up to everything else mormonism believes. I make no claim as to why.
It is a complete mystery to me that you as a leader of this religion won't come right out and say:
"Of course I believe Christ was created, that the Father was created, that the Holy Spirit was created, that Heavenly Mother was created. Of course, I believe God breeds in the heavens! Of course I believe I have to do enough rituals and works to be counted worthy for salvation, or I'll never see the presence of God in the highest mormon heaven. Of course, I believe in thousands or millions of gods! Of course, I believe I have a shot at being a god myself someday! After all, I'm a mormon and we believe all that and more!"
No, what we see you post is all the innocuous, feel good stuff everyone can agree with and sound normal.
"I have sincerely born you my witness and it is up to you to deal with it however you will. But the witness is sincere and it is true."
No one doubts your sincerity. It is the incompleteness of the full truth that makes your representation of mormon faith incomplete and consequently, a half-truth.
"It is not "finely crafted"
Dear FRiend, I don't think anyone who knows what mormonism teaches and compares it to your public statement could possibly conclude your testimony is anything but sincere and carefully crafted. You might as well claim Obama is telling the truth.
"I am more than content for others reading to make up their own mind"
And that is why I am pointing out the totality of what mormonism teaches - using your incomplete post to demonstrate that mormonism is not Biblical or Christian - by posting things you undoubtedly must believe as a mormon leader, but that you left out. Now, indeed, they will have the complete truth and not just a sincere sales pitch. If you really want them to make up their own mind, and you are committed to truth, I'm sure you support revealing what mormonism teaches.
ampu
It's that old "burning in the bosom" thing.
Some folks would slit their own throats...oh wait...if they had that burning thing.
There are many out there who have yet heard The Gospel or had someone talk too them about Jesus Christ yet many are way too busy trying to save that other church down the street instead where though they may or may not have some serious doctrine issues they are none the less still followers of Jesus Christ.
Not one church, not one Christian, by their church is worthy and stands perfect. All churches have some flaws, dark histories, or incorrect reading of scriptures from which they established their charter or belief.
Back too the bashing carry on.
In the baptism with the Holy Ghost subsequent to a clean heart.
In speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance and that it is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
Now I want some too see just how much harm they would do a believing Christian by literally hounding the person who did not experience such {most do not} but saying to them then you are not saved. This church is located in most communities in the south I'm not sure about other regions. It is accepted as Christian.
Consider if you will the person who does receive conviction and calls upon Christ for salvation. I have seen some folks cry, be happy, be scared especially going before a church in public profession, and some their expression and behavior was like it was when they came through the church door. They didn't shout, yell, or anything. They may not have even felt at that time a difference within themselves. But they are saved by The Grace Of GOD. But the church doctrine requires this that the other as proof. Most churches have some little quirk.
At one time in my life in the Navy actually I had gone up to the ships chapel for some prayer and solitude. 5000 plus people it didn't happen often. In walks a guy and ask if I've been saved I said yes. He said are you sure? I said yes. That should have ended the questioning by him. He proceeds to ask me well when you were Baptized what did your preacher say? I said I Baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. He said Oh then you are not saved. That was not a correct Baptism because he didn't say I Baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ. I looked at him and said The Father, The Son, The Holy Ghost now which one is Jesus Christ? He said but it has to be His name. The guy hounded me nearly two solid years wanting to convert me. He was wrong. Well meaning perhaps but wrong.
See what I mean?
As for myself? I believe salvation comes in an instant is not dependent upon mans Baptism but rather the instant you surrender to Christ The Holy Spirit Baptizes you in the Blood and Spirit of Christ. It is spiritual not physical.
My dad often told me of the day of his salvation. He was in his late teens out hunting as he often did. Someone had given him a pocket New Testament. He read it including verses like John 3:16. In the back of The Bible was a place stating I___ accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and accept His forginesses of my sins. He signed it and laid it down and left it and went home.
Several years later he briefly joined a church and made public profession and Baptism. Most of his life he did not go to church. Something had happened when he was a kid and at a football team camp. The coach called upon him to say the prayer. My dad was terrified of public speaking. Talking to one or two persons he could do and he helped lead many in the family and friends to Christ in his lifetime. But he had a fear that in a church environment he again would be called upon. Some Sunday School teacher, some Preachers, have some discernment on whom to call on. Others it's out of the blue to someone. It wasn't just that in his line of work he took a job where he would not have to go to customers homes but rather he worked alone at night.
When he passed I talked to the ministers involved in his funeral. Both had visited him in his last days and understood him.
What makes one a Christian? Many attend organized churches many do not but go quietly about their lives living in the path they are given doing GOD's work in His name. No ones church makes them a Christian or not. It's a matter of the heart toward GOD and a sincere and repentive heart with a will too please GOD {though we as humans will fall} that is what GOD wants of us. It is our belief and acceptance of Salvation through Christ that sets us free. His blood shed for us for those who ask to receive it.
I would suggest you read the history of mormonism and the "First Vision" account, all 13 or so of them, before making a claim like that.
Google up some of Brigham Young's Journals of Discourses and some of the other self-proclaimed "prophets" of mormonism as well.
A single issue (prop8) doesn’t make mormons Christian.
Red herring. I've not seen one individual mormon in need of defending on this thread.
Mormons need to grow a spine and accept that as long as they claim that ALL of Christianity was lost, needed restoration by a pedophile conman, and that all who call themselves Christians are apostates, they're going to get push back.
Man up or shut up. Simple as that. I'm not going to lie down and let mormonism usurp the Holy name of the one and only God.
Funny you should bring that up...
”…they're all much better people than you and the others…”
”…You spend all this time and anger…”
”…happy to just rant and scream and hi-five each other in your little "Religion" …”
”…playhouse…”
”…It almost like you’re getting paid... …”
”…You are mentally ill…”
”…I'm just part of the smashmouth group…”
”…You are out of your mind…”
”…The crazy train is pulling into my stop…”
”…You people on these threads are truly nuts…”
"“The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every number (issue) as it comes forth.“ (President George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 8.)"
http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/
My spirit cringes.
It was never accepted, canonized, or sustained as such, despite that opinion.
Everything our leaders say is not scripture...and everything they feel should happen does not. On the Church’s web site it clearly lists the scripture.
I sustain the leaders we have...and they are good men, but they are men and not perfect. Over the years several have been excommunicated.
We each have the opportunity to exercise our free conscience in sustaining them...and hearing and listening to their sermons. When something is specifically recognized as a revelation and scripture, it is presented to the body of the church as such.
That thumping sound is another mormon prophet being tossed under the bus. tell us Jeff, are you a greater spiritual authority than President George Q. Cannon when it come to this?
On the Church’s web site it clearly lists the scripture.
Lets see what your church website lists as scripture -
D&C 68:4 " 4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the aHoly Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the bpower of God unto salvation."
My Jeff, nothing about a requirement for it to be written down - and this is from an acknowledged mormon scripture.
From the lds site on "Gospel Principles" regarding scripture it reads -
"The Lord inspired the Prophet Joseph to restore truths to the Bible text that had been lost or changed since the original words were written. These inspired corrections are called the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible."
The mormon church accepts the JST to be inspired and from God - yet is isn't formally listed as one of the four standard works. Must mean that those 'truths' are not so true.
Gospel principles further state -
"In addition to these four books of scripture, the inspired words of our living prophets become scripture to us. Their words come to us through conferences, the Liahona or Ensign magazine, and instructions to local priesthood leaders. “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God” (Articles of Faith 1:9)."
Now really Jeff - why is it so easy for mormons to dismiss this aspect of their religion by relegating it as their "opinions" ? Plausible deniability? Remarkably this aspect is EXACTLY what Cannon applied to the JoD. Or does mormonism no longer have a living prophet?
The D&C speaks clearly, and it is true, but the leadership of the Church then determines the official scripture list for the Church, and, for example, whether something should be added specifically to the Doctrine & Covenants.
On the main page of the LDS.ORG site there is a simple link called "Sciptures". It leads to: This Site, which lists the official, recognized Holy Scripture of the Church that we publsh to the world and the membership as such.
Listed along the left side there you will find them listed. with links to each one:
The Holy Bible (Old and New Testaments)
The Book of Mormon (a 2nd Witness of Jesus Christ from the Ancient Americas)
The Doctrine and Covenats (Revelations of Moden Prophets, mostly from Joseph Smith)
The Pearle of Great Price (An ancient writngs of Moses concerning Abraham and Moses)
That's it. These are the Holy Scriptures listed by and read by and studied by the Church. New Revelations, if they end up being established and accepted as Scripture will be put into the Doctrine & Civenants if they are a revelation through the Prophet to the whole Church.
If another record is ever discovered or revealed from, for example one or more of the "Lost Tribes," they would go through that process and be listed.
This does not mean that the urgings and prophetic voice of the Apostles or Prophet when they speak before the Church as moved upon by the Holky Ghost are not followed by the Church...it just means for them to be considered scripture to the Church and World as a whole, they will go through the process of being identified as such through a unanimous vote of the Quorum of the Twelve and 1st Presidency, then presented to the Church as such where the Church then, by common consent, throughout the Church then accepts them.
The Journal of Discourses has never gone through such a process, and I expect it probably never will...but that is just my opinion. Each member can read them and glean what they will from them for their own guidance and edification, but before it becomes scripture to the Church, it would go through the process as I just described it...and then would be listed with the others, and published as such.
God's speed.
Jeff - you claimed YOUR lds site listed approved scripture - I just went there and cited what THEY posted. I would consider THEM to be more authortative than you because YOU said to go there.
The D&C speaks clearly, and it is true, but the leadership of the Church then determines the official scripture list for the Church, and, for example, whether something should be added specifically to the Doctrine & Covenants.
Sorry Jeff - you speak contrary AGAIN to what LDS.org has posted for all to see. There is nothing there that states it can only be listed in D&C. If that is the case - then the "prophetic" voice of the prophet and apostles has been silent for a century. mormonism no longer has a living prophet.
On the main page of the LDS.ORG site there is a simple link called "Sciptures".
Gospel principles is the OFFICIAL doctrinal teaching manual says OTHERWISE Jeff. If your word is true - there is no longer a living prophet or prophetic voice speaking the word of 'god' to mormonism.
New Revelations, if they end up being established and accepted as Scripture will be put into the Doctrine & Civenants if they are a revelation through the Prophet to the whole Church.
Then your church is at war with itself -
Words of Our Living Prophets In addition to these four books of scripture, the inspired words of our living prophets become scripture to us. Their words come to us through conferences, the Liahona or Ensign magazine, and instructions to local priesthood leaders. “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God” (Articles of Faith 1:9).
There is nothing here that supports you claim Jeff. Your view has dead prophetic voice. Perhaps you should seek higher input.
But then again Jeff - you include a spurious book - the book of abraham - as "scripture" - a writing clearly discredited by modern egyptology.
And still no precise BoM lands.
Eveything I said supports my claim, Godzilla...you just don’t like it. The words of the living Prophets are made scripture to the chruch through the process I outlined. Some, will go into the D&C as I indicated, others may be listed seperately as I indicated.
The articels of Faith, the Gospel Principles manual, etc., etc. are all correct and fulfilled in that manner for the Church as a whole.
Each member individually can take messages to heart from any that the leaders speak or deliver, as I also stated, and apply them in their life accordingly. As it is in any faith system when people are inspired and moved upon by the Holy Ghost...we each find the message thereby that we need on our life.
If they are to become official scripture for the entire Church...and the whole world according to our belief...they will go through that process and be announced as such accordingly.
What you do not like is that the actual process and definition for the cannon of scripture does not match up with your interpretation, desire, and preconcieved notions regard them. That’s fine, but it does not change the process...it just illustrates your interpretation which I have tried to help you with. But my impression nmow i that you really aren’t looking for help in that regard, Godzilla, are you?
We’ve gone round and round on this. I know where I stand as a member, active in the Church, involved in the councils, and practising with myself and family. I have tried to explain it to you...but you want to interject and apply your own...obviosuly biased against the Church, interpretation and dogma.
People can read and come to their own conclusions.
Have a great thread...perhaps you guys can push this one to 200-300 posts...but I’m on to other issues and you’ll have to do it without me.
Sorry Jeff - Gospel Principles states something quite the opposite. Show me the from your standard works that specifically outlines what you say. I've already presented a passage from D&C that contradicts you.
Each member individually can take messages to heart from any that the leaders speak or deliver, as I also stated, and apply them in their life accordingly.
Oh, so you can make up your own scripture as needed eh?
What you do not like is that the actual process and definition for the cannon of scripture does not match up with your interpretation, desire, and preconcieved notions regard them.
Not correct Jeff, I've cited your church doctrinal teaching materials, D&C and can cite other of your prophets that do not agree with your opinion as well. Your posts only go to show that there is no living prophet in the church - ever.
I have tried to explain it to you...but you want to interject and apply your own...obviosuly biased against the Church, interpretation and dogma.
You've done nothing of the sort Jeff. Obfuscate, but you've put nothing from real, official sources forward in your defense. Why is that Jeff? Is it because even mormonism doesn't really know what they believe?
Then Apostle Ezra Taft Benson in the 1980 General council stated clearly that “The Prophet Does Not Have to Say ‘Thus Saith the Lord’ to Give Us Scripture.” Now I will assume that an Apostle (and later prophet) trumps YOUR experience and standing Jeff. Seems that Benson disagrees with your methodical means of scriptural acceptance. BTW, this speech is included in the newly updated Religion 333 Student Manual, Teachings of the Living Prophets (2011, pp. 22-27).
This same manual quotes Marion G. Romney:
“So I repeat again, what the presidency say as a presidency is what the Lord would say if he were here, and it is scripture. It should be studied, understood, and followed, even as the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants and other scriptures”
I beg your pardon Jeff, but where is all this set piece methodology for accepting it as scripture or not? These OFFICIALLY sanctioned documents from the lds hq tell everyone a completely different story. Even the Apostle Romney EQUATES them to the other standard works
Another LDS authoritative source highlighted the topic of “The Scriptures” in its “What We Believe” column. It says,
“Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accept the following as scripture: 1. The Bible… 2. The Book of Mormon… 3. The Doctrine and Covenants… 4. The Pearl of Great Price… 5. God continues to reveal truths to living prophets through the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. These truths are considered scripture (see D&C 68:4). They come to us primarily through general conference, held the first weekend in April and October, when members throughout the world hear addresses from our prophet and other Church leaders” (Ensign, January 2011, 14-15).
Again Jeff - your OFFICIAL sources tell us a vastly different story than the one you are laying out. Again, are you a higher authority than the GA that authorized these official expressions of mormon doctrine?
I have tried to explain it to you...but you want to interject and apply your own...obviosuly biased against the Church, interpretation and dogma.
Clearly you haven't, since I followed your challenge to look on the lds site and found contrary.
People can read and come to their own conclusions.
Indeed, authoritative sources from the mormon church lay out a whole different scripture development that what you claim it teaches. I'm sorry, but an unbiased reader would see your 'say so' answers in contrast to the official pronouncements in its own established scriptures, media mouthpieces and educational / doctrinal training material.
But, whereas you right now (and correct me on this if I am wrong, because it is your faith, heart, and belief I am talking about and I will not presume to tell you what is in your heart and soul) do not believe that the LDS Prophets, Apotsles, or restoration of Christ's Church, is not true, and in as much as your interpretation of the very things you read and quote are therefore skewed by that unbelief, allow me, once again as a long time, faithful member of the Church, in sincerelty and humility, to gently help you in that understanding.
The quotes you pulled from the Church web site are true. As members we do read and follow the words of the leaders of the Church as impressed upon our hearts "as though they were scripture,"...and there's an important distinction in that. As I have stated, we sustain the 12 as Apostles, Seers and revelators, the same with the 1st Presidency, and the President as a Prophet of God. (See Ephesians 4:11-14)) But you do not.
We have been around and around on this.
What we continue to have here is "a failure in communication," where you, as a non-believer, who, unless you have changed your heart and accepted the things you are talking about, are trying to tell me from that non-believing perspective, a very active and faithful member of 42 years what it is that I believe and what my faith teaches and what those quotes mean. That's a disjoiner from the get go...what we call in my native Texas a "dog that don't hunt,"...besides being pretty dog gone presumptive.
As for the truth as to how these LDS leaders words are either what you might called "cannonized" for the whole church and set before the world as such (that is, scripture ie. The Holy Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Pearle of Great Price, or the Doctrine and Covenants...which is a living document and can be and has been added to as time goes on), or how they are to be taken and followed by the faithful and believing church members individually (which again, according to my understanding is a group that you do not fall into...correct me if I am wrong).
As I said, to understand those two things:
All of that fits into and goes along with the very things you have quoted...but from the LDS perspective and not your pre-concieved one.
Redux I - This has now turned officially, circular.
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