Posted on 04/26/2012 1:32:13 PM PDT by greyfoxx39
What the world calls "Mormonism" will rule every nation.
God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it.
Chief Apostle Orson Hyde
Journal of Discourses, VII, 48-53Mormonism is neither a fraternal order nor a religious association: it is a kingdom, the kingdom of God. In the words of Joseph F. Smith, sixth Prophet of the Church:
The greatest event that has ever occurred in the world, since the resurrection of the Son of God from the tomb and his ascension on high, was the coming of the Father and the Son to that boy Joseph Smith, to prepare the way for the laying of the foundation of his kingdom — not the kingdom of man — never more to cease nor to be overturned.
The kingdom "never more to cease nor to be overturned" is the messianic kingdom foreseen in the second chapter of the Book of Daniel:
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
Stated Church historian B.H. Roberts:
We are warranted in the belief, however, that it will be a tangible, bona fide government of God on earth, consisting of a king; subordinate officers; laws; subjects; and the whole earth for its territory - for its dominion.
History of the Church, Vol. I, Intro. p. xxxvi. The Mormons equate this kingdom as well with the words of Revelation 11:15: "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ: and He shall reign forever and ever."
"The kingdom is organized," wrote Brigham Young in 1844, "and although as yet no bigger than a grain of mustard seed, the little plant is in a flourishing condition and our prospects brighter than ever." Id., Vol. VII, p.381—Note. Few Americans comprehended the magnitude of the political expectations of the Mormons. "As was observed by Brother Pratt, that kingdom is actually organized and the inhabitants of the earth do not know it," stated Brigham Young on July 8,1855. "If this people know anything about it, all right; it is organized preparatory to taking effect in the due time of the Lord, and in the manner that shall please him." Id.
Joseph Smith, capitalizing on the fervor for primitive Christianity that animated the American frontier in the 1820's and 1830's, claimed that Jesus Christ Himself had chosen him to restore His original ceremonies, build up a Church to greet Him at the Second Coming, and rule the earth during the Millennium. "Flee the wrath to come" and "gather to Zion" were the watchwords of Mormon missionaries in the early days. "The missionary was confident the end of the world was hourly approaching," wrote one observer, "that soon the earth and all therein, except such as embraced Mormonism, would be destroyed, and his benevolence made him use extraordinary exertions to bring the human race within the pale that he assured them could alone save them from impending destruction." William White Smith, The Prophets (1855).
Although the Mormons argue that the church of God will be distinct from the government of God during the Millennium, this is true only in the sense that the communist party of the Soviet Union was different from the government of Russia after the revolution of 1917. Brigham Young did say that the "kingdom grows out of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but it is not the church." He also said, however, that "no one can draw the line between the government of God and the government of the children of men." History of the Church, Vol. VII, p.382; April 9, 1844. In fact, although non-Mormons may participate in the rulership of the millennial kingdom, the Mormon priesthood will control its organization and administration. The kingdom of God and the church of God will both be run by the Mormon Church - under the direction of Christ, who will pass freely back and forth "through the veil" during this period.
"What I mean by the kingdom of God," wrote Joseph F. Smith in October, 1906, "is the organization of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, over which the Son of God presides, and not man. That is what I mean." On another occasion he said, "I know that this is the kingdom of God and that God is at the helm." It is such claims that inspired Apostle Parley Pratt to say of Joseph Smith: "His work will live to endless ages. Unnumbered millions yet unborn will mention his name with honor." Grieving at the blindness of humanity in failing to recognize the nascent kingdom in their midst, Apostle Ezra Taft Benson wrote in 1948: "The history of humanity has, to a large extent, been one of groping blindly in the dark, fearing for the future and yet resisting the guiding hand of inspired men who would willingly lead mankind in the path of safety." Forward to W. Cleon Skousen, Prophecy and Modern Times (1948). At the head of the path stands Joseph Smith, holder of the keys of salvation — "keys which will unlock the door into the kingdom of God to every man who is worthy to enter and which will close that door against every soul that will not obey the law of God." It can hardly be expected that Christ will allow the governance of His kingdom to rest in the hands of those who refuse to acknowledge His chosen medium of salvation. "No man or woman in this dispensation," declared Brigham Young, "will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith." Journal of Discourses 7:289.
Well known and often cited within the church is the utterance of Joseph Smith that "the day will come when the Constitution of the United States hangs by a thread — and will be saved only by the elders of the Church." One student of Mormonism phrased this expectation somewhat differently: "They are promising their followers," wrote Bruce Kinney in 1912, "that they will in time control things politically in the United States." Mormonism: the Islam of America. Mormon political activity is rooted in the assumption that the day is coming when the American political system will collapse and the hierarchical apparatus of the Mormon Church will take its place. The Mormon Church, in this sense, is a shadow government — like the ayatollahs of Iran — only awaiting the Biblically-predicted chaos that shall sweep away American democracy and install Mormon theocracy in its place — to reign forever, "never more to be overturned." A commonly-cited scenario envisions the inevitable degeneration of the godless American polity into the anarchy envisioned by Christ in his discourse on the Mount of Olivet: "Nation shall rise up against nation and kingdom against kingdom . . . . Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents and cause them to be put to death." Mark 13:8, 12.
Joseph Smith added his own personal vision to this prophecy: "I saw men hunting the lives of their own sons, and brother murdering brother, women killing their own daughters, and daughters seeking the lives of their mothers."
The principle of "gathering to Zion as God pours out His wrath" is fundamental to Mormonism. Current policy is that Mormons should stay in their own localities, not migrate to Salt Lake City, but "build up Zion" where they live. When the time comes, however, the Prophet shall summon all Mormons everywhere to gather in to Salt Lake City for shelter while the Great Anarchy sweeps the globe. After the Great Wrath, Christ Himself shall return, appearing first in a Mormon Temple in Independence, Missouri on a plot of ground designated by Joseph Smith for this purpose. This Temple shall be the centerpiece of a holy city, the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21, which shall surround it and become the new capital of Mormonism. From it the world shall be ruled as the Mormons who fled to Salt Lake City for protection return to their hometowns and home lands as rulers and organizers of the new and everlasting theocratic kingdom. Although Christ will also appear in Jerusalem to organize the repentant and worshipful Jews into the Millennial Kingdom, the real seat of world government will be the New Jerusalem in Missouri. The two capitals will be formally co-equal, but the New Jerusalem will be the source of power, much as the Disney Corporation is to Disneyland. The new Jewish kingdom will require instruction, guidance and ultimately subordination to the Mormon authorities, for he who receives authority from another is subservient to the giver of that authority. The Jews can only receive the authentic priesthood of God from the Mormons, and therefore, must be beholden and obedient to them.
Yes, the messianic kingdom described by Isaiah is already here in embryo in Utah; the Jews shall be part of it - indeed, it cannot achieve its fullness until they do — but they will not rule it. That question was decided in 1820 when Christ appeared to Joseph Smith and gave him the Keys of the Millennium. In the 1830's one dramatic day Moses and Elijah also came to visit and invested the Prophet Joseph with their authority as well. "And it shall come to pass in the last days," reads Isaiah 2:2, "that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it." In the annotated Mormon edition of the Bible, the mountains here are the Rocky Mountains and "the Lord's house" is the Salt Lake Temple. "For out of Zion shall go forth the law" continues Isaiah, supposedly referring to the Mormon capital, "and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem," the Jewish capital.
The Mormons have quite a message for Messianic Jews — quite a message — and someday, no doubt, if they get their hands on the levers of power, they will attempt to deliver it — first as protectors of the Jews and then as their rulers.
Before the Church became a national institution and began to soften and obscure its publicly-displayed doctrines, the inevitable consolidation of all earthly power into the hands of the Mormon authorities was clearly understood. "The understanding," related Bishop Cahoon in his testimony, "was that God had established His Kingdom upon the earth, and the Mormon Church was the Kingdom of God, and all that belonged to the Mormon Church were expected to yield allegiance to that church, to that Kingdom alone, and the highest allegiance was to the Mormon Church — the Kingdom of God." An oath administered in the endowment ceremony at that time committed the priesthood to "avenge the blood of the prophets" and teach this doctrine to their children and their children's children. The Church "taught," testified Bishop Cahoon, "that this government would be overthrown, and the Kingdom of God be established on its ruins . . . . They didn't care much about the government of the United States when they had a kingdom." The comparable oath that I took in the Mormon Temple in Washington, D.C., in August, 1981 had no political overtones but did commit me to pledge all my time talent and treasure to the upbuilding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Such an oath does not leave much room for any other loyalty.
The official establishment of the government of God as distinct from the government of the Church took place in 1844 when Joseph Smith organized a secret Council of Fifty as the ruling politburo of the kingdom of God. This council encompassed non-Mormons, including Joseph Jackson, who, by his own report, was offered $3,000 by the Prophet to kill the governor of Missouri. In the days before the authority of the United States government became effective in Utah, the Council of Fifty, according to church historians Leonard J. Arrington and Davis Bitton, "began deliberations on the nature of civil government to be established in the valley." Having ruled the Salt Lake valley directly through the church, Brigham Young and his associates now decided to establish a civil government subsidiary, nominally independent of the church, called the State of Deseret. On March 8,1849, three days after the opening of the constitutional convention, a standard state constitution of the time was adopted — and an election scheduled for two months later to select officers for the new state. Ballots, however, were actually cast four days later on March 12,1849 — somewhat limiting the amount of campaigning any independent candidate might undertake. Brigham Young won the office of governor and Heber C. Kimball chief justice, both winning 100% of the ballots cast for their respective offices. The election of the temporal government of the Kingdom of God had as much resemblance to a free election as the elections conducted by the governments of Eastern Europe in 1946. This procedure was deliberate. "Every government lays the foundation of its own downfall," declared Brigham Young in 1872, "when it permits what are called democratic elections." "Remember," said the church authority who interviewed me for my worthiness to become a Mormon priest, "the Church is a theocracy, not a democracy." Any government the church creates, it creates in its own image.
All power lies with the Prophet who is God's representative on earth; his word is law. As the Prophet is to the Church, so the Bishop is to the local ward. Unlike the rabbi of a Jewish congregation, who is dependent upon the favor of the synagogue for his position, the Bishop is chosen and installed solely by his ecclesiastical superiors. The notion of "division" or "separation" of powers is anathema to Mormonism.
The members of the ward are sternly enjoined to "sustain the authorities" for this is the "only true" church of God and the officers of it God's chosen — selected by "inspiration" after "prayerful consideration," and installed by the laying on of hands. To dispute the church authorities is to defy God. And who would do that?
Thus, it is not surprising that, given the occasion and the opportunity, the Mormon hierarchy will create a civil government in the image of their church government — elections by acclamation and zealous obedience the essence of virtue. The popularity of military careers for Mormon youth is a direct outgrowth of the inculcation of these principles. That the Mormons fully expect to rule the United States and the world as well one day is, of course, a political hallucination that could never happen. If so, however, it may be expected that they will formally reverence the U.S. Constitution while simultaneously abolishing the division of powers, based on mistrust of all unchecked human authority, that underlies it. A portion of Bishop Cahoon's testimony, given in 1889, expresses the sentiments that still reign in the minds of the Mormon authorities:
Q. Did they ever teach you anything in regard to the overthrowing of the Constitution of the United States, did you ever hear that at all?
A. The Constitution of the United States would be, perhaps, an after consideration; after the government was overthrown the leaders of the Mormon Church would reform that document to suit themselves.
Q. Did you ever hear them say that the document needed reforming?
A. O, yes.
Q. You never heard it taught that that was a Divine Document?
A. O, yes, they taught that it was an inspired document, but that it would be better - eventually it would be better.
Q. Who was going to better it?
A. The priesthood of the Mormon Church.
Q. When?
A. Well, when they got it in their hands.
Q. When was that going to be?
A. Well, directly, it has been put off from time to time. They say it is pretty near now.
Q. State when and where you heard it.
A. Heard it all the while, ever since I was in the church.
To obscure the fundamental incompatibility of Mormon doctrine with democratic politics, Brigham Young made the remarkable statement: "The Constitution and laws of the United States resemble a theocracy more closely than any government now on earth." Journal of Discourses 6:342. He came slightly closer to the truth in the following statement:
Few, if any, understand what a theocratic government is. In every sense of the word, it is a republican government, and differs but little in form from our National, State, and Territorial Governments; but its subjects will recognize the will and dictation of the Almighty . . . .
Id.
There is no room for legitimate disagreement in Mormonism. Anyone who questions church practices is considered to have lost his faith in revealed truth. Such an individual must speedily repent and humble himself, begging forgiveness or he will be excommunicated. A man named Morris had the effrontery to establish his own mini-Mormonism in Utah in the days of Brigham Young, claiming to receive instructions from God as did the Mormon prophet. Brigham sent his "avenger" on horseback and shot the fledgling prophet dead in broad daylight in the presence of his followers. John Taylor, successor to Brigham Young as Prophet, made it clear that the Mormons envision no separation of church and state once they take power.
Was the kingdom that the Prophets talked about, that should be set up in the latter times, going to be a Church? Yes. And a state? Yes, it was going to be both Church and State, to rule both temporarily (sic) and spiritually.
When Utah became a state and began to elect Senators and Congressmen, some question arose as to whether a Mormon Senator would consider himself bound by his oath to support the Constitution and laws of the United States, or whether his endowment oaths of supreme loyalty to the Church would prevail. John Taylor answered as follows:
It may be asked, How can we live under the dominion and laws of the United States and be subjects of another kingdom? Because the kingdom of God is higher, and its laws are so much more exalted than those of any other nation, that it is the easiest thing in life for a servant of God to keep any of their laws and, as I have said before, this we have uniformly done.
Journal of Discourses 6:24. The Mormon leadership fully expect the American government to collapse as a prelude to their assumption of power on the American continent. "When the Lord commands it through his living prophets," writes a BYU faculty member in the June, 1976 Ensign, "the New Jerusalem will become the capital city . . . ." The Constitution will then become the responsibility of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "It is not wise to sit by and think that the protection of the Constitution is the problem of someone else at some other time," warns the Ensign. "Our commission to save the Constitution is, like salvation, a continuing task." Should the Mormon apparatus ever come to power in the United States during a period of inner turmoil, this country will become a white tyranny, the ecclesiastical mirror image of communism. "And this is the redemption of Zion," said Joseph Smith in 1841, "when the saints shall have redeemed that government and reinstated it in all its purity and glory."
The Mormons will come as saviors of the constitution, firm-willed virtuous patriots full of love for God and country. Their ecclesiastical autocracy will come wrapped in the evocative symbolism of constitutional purification.
But, of course, it could never happen here. Joseph Smith was but twenty-five years of age, full of the fire of youth, when he donned the mantle of prophethood: Brigham Young was forty-seven. There has not been a prophet under the age of sixty since. The Church is a mature businesslike institution that discourages excessive fanaticism. Its doctrines have been softened and blended to have as wide an appeal as possible. Tradition since World War II has chosen the oldest apostle for the office of Prophet. Of the five prophets since 1945, four were in their mid-seventies when chosen and the fifth over ninety. The current Prophet, Spencer W. Kimball, is eighty-seven: his two counsellors are eighty-four and eighty-five. The Church in many of its activities today displays a silly farcical spirit — a spirit I always found offensive but now view as inherent in a company of religious play actors. Gordon B. Hinckley, who was recently elevated from the Council of the Twelve Apostles to be a third counsellor to the Prophet, was active in the 1970's as an adviser to the Public Communications Department — the Church's propaganda agency. [In 1995, Hinckley became the 15th President and Prophet of the Church.] He worked, in particular, on the "subject content" for the Washington, D.C. Visitor's Center, which is attached to the Temple.
In the Washington center, life-size mannequins representing Isaiah, Nephi, Joseph Smith, and other prophets will speak their messages from the scriptures. With translucent masks and hidden rear projection, the figures will speak as living oracles.
Ensign, August, 1974.
One does not associate such Disneyland techniques with traditional religious solemnity. They remind one more of Revelation, Chapter 13: "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." Whether the Wizards of Mormon will one day install a humanoid mannequin as prophet is beyond my power to foresee. Whether or not a young ambitious technocrat prophet will be able to simulate the second coming of Christ and gather an ocean of white-robed believers to the templed Missouri hills to witness the inauguration of the Millennium is also beyond my power of prediction. A visit to the Hill Cumorah pageant staged every summer in Palmyra, New York to commemorate and re-enact Joseph Smith's discovery of the golden plates from which he translated the Book of Mormon will keep interested observers of the Millennial Kingdom up to date on the state of the art in religious pyrotechnics, while we wait patiently for the Mormon "rendezvous with our Constitution's destiny." Ensign, June, 1976.
I did read it all, grey. And what I stated still stnads. When Christ returns HE will be the ruler, the Lord of the whole earth and He will govern in rightousness.
If that is the case and He asks the Elders of His Church at the time to minister, I expect they will do so, and all Christians will flock to those calling at His direction...whatever it may be.
we have had this concersation in the past, on several occasions.
At that time, I will happily and gratefully do as Christ bids, and I expect you will too.
And that is also counterbalanced by the 2nd, 3rd, & 4TH generations of Mormons still living who were part of a quite distinctive mainstream Mormon culture that Jeff Head seems to refuse to acknowledge on these threads...It's what I called part of the Mormon heritage that's still a "wildcard" ... because you don't even know which Mormon descendents & their ancestors took this oath to their God seriously enough to carry it out:
Do we realize -- that if you were a temple Mormon in 1926 -- ALL temple Mormons promised to fulfill the following Oath of Vengeance in their sacred temple ceremony:
You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will pray and never cease to pray to Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets UPON THIS NATION, and that YOU WILL TEACH THE SAME TO YOUR CHILDREN AND TO YOUR CHILDREN'S CHILDREN UNTO THE THIRD AND FOURTH GENERATION. Source: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2335353/posts
Fact: Mitt Romney was born in 1947. We could doubt all we want that he took such an oath...since we know it wasn't imposed upon its followers by the Mormon church since 1926.
But Mitt's father, George, was 19 years old when this oath was still being imposed in the Mormon temple. How do we know George didn't take this oath...or Mitt's grandfathers??? These men made an oath to their God that they would teach it to their grandchildren and Mitt's kids, too!
Are they oath-breakers...covenant-breakers to their god? Or do they keep their promises made in their sacred temples?
What kind of wildcard "vengeance" awaits this nation by these men who swore such oaths -- and generationally fulfilled their promises to pass them on?
Do you believe this?
“What the world calls ‘Mormonism’ will rule every nation...God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it. This will make the heathen rage.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 53)
You know, at times those of us who regularly converse with Lds walk a balance.
We love to hear statements like yours which sound Biblical...'cause frankly we know a lot of Mormons do read the Bible...and we know that influences them...
So part of that balance will be to "amen" when Mormons read Biblical conclusions. But when those Mormons then usurp General Authority authority...and portend that what they are saying represents official Mormondom... No, that just won't do.
Because it allows you to spin what isn't so.
So if the above is your personal take on the atonement, why would I want to attack that?
But...If you are claiming that is what the Mormon church officially teaches re: the atonement...think again.
Now what is incomplete re: what Jeff says...that betrays official Mormon teaching on the atonement?
#1 Christ's atonement covers our sin nature...something Mormons even deny that humankind has (a sin nature)
What do I mean by a sin nature?
Allow us all to filter our understanding thru the Living Word -- Jesus Christ: 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. (Matthew 15:19)
Our heart isn't simply corrupted by the sin we allow into our lives; no, Jesus says that it's our heart that spills over into enacted sin...
Let's go back to Jewish theological thought from a long time ago:
* Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (Psalm 51:5) [Based on this verse, Joseph Smith & Mormons call the Psalmists a liar on this...they think the Psalms teaches falsely on this]
* Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward... (Psalm 58:3)
What people mix up is that they think the Garden happens all over again at some point in their life: something environmental tempts them & then they sin "for the first time." Until then, they think they're innocent. [Mormons teach that children are perfect angels until age 8...I guess all those children's temper tantrums are just done to help parents be better people -- and no other "sinful" reason]
Unlike Adam & Eve, people do not simply sin & then become sinful; they sin because they are sinful by nature. The symptoms are the misdeeds -- not the diagnosis itself.
People's spiritual nature is dead (Eph. 2:1), which the NT describes as being in bondage to sin (Romans 6).
Now, in contrast what does the Mormon 2nd article of faith emphasize? It teaches that men are subject to punishment for their own sins; their Mormon "jesus" doesn't serve as our Substitute [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their OWN sins, and not for Adam's transgression."]
IOW, not for Adam's sin nature that's been generationally passed down.
This, plain and simple, is heresy. And Mormons, like Jeff, are heretics for denying all of the Biblical scriptures above.
#2 What is the other Lds "atonement" teaching that Jeff Head conveniently ignore -- as taught by another Jeff H. in the Mormon hierarchy?
Answer?
Well, God bless her, Greyfoxx39 posted this relevant thread a few years back:
ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST - Mormon- (OPEN)
The speaker/writer is Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland.
From this link, Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland claims forgiveness of personal sins applies to ONLY to members of the Mormon church:
From that Holland message: Latter-day Saints believe that other aspects of Christ's gift are conditional upon obedience and diligence in keeping God's commandments. For example, while members of the human family are freely and universally given a reprieve from Adam's sin through no effort or action of their own, they are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they pledge faith in Christ, repent of those sins, are baptized in his name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation into Christ's church...
Notice from the above quote all that Jeff Head left out re: Jeff Holland's claims:
* The Mormon version of the atonement doesn't "take" minus your "obedience" and diligent command-keeping;
* And that people "are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they are baptized in his name...and confirmation into Christ's church...
Per Mormonism, what is the ONLY true church on the face of the earth? The Mormon church...no membership...no atonement (payment for your sin; at-one-ment reconciliation with the Father) for you.
Snapshot of Joseph Smith’s Slanderous Invectives vs. Christian Sects |
Mormon Source[Note: Most of these are Mormon ‘scriptures'. In fact, First three rows below are Lds 'scripture' & therefore cannot be rug-swept any more than a Jew might try to take three commandments off of the very tablets of stone Moses brought down from the mountain] |
| “...which of all the sects was right… must join NONE of them, for they were ALL WRONG… those professors were ALL CORRUPT…” | Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price |
| ...“which of all the sects was right…ALL their CREEDS were an ABOMINATION in his sight…they teach for doctrines the commandments of MEN…” | Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price |
| Mormon church the only ‘Christ-sanctioned’ church on earth: “…the foundation of this [Mormon] church…the ONLY true and living church on the face of the whole earth” [Obvious ‘scorched earth’ implication: All other churches are false and dead] | Lds “scripture” Doctrines & Covenants 1:30 |
Jesus is THE Spiritual Physician of spiritual physicians.
He didn't say jump thru these commandment & membership hoops, oh wretched spiritually infirmed one...oh, spiritual cancerous person, & then we'll talking about covering your sin.
No, Jeff. God in Christ levels the playing field before the cross by undercutting any spiritual pride that presumes anybody from any religion doesn’t need Him as our great physician ("It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick...For I have NOT COME to call the righteous, but sinners."--Matthew 9:12)
The atonement is for us unhealthy sinners, Jeff...not just membership Mormons in good standing to collect a series of temple recommends from Bishop Romney & the rest of the Lds bishops...
We join with the apostle Paul in declaring the TRUE Gospel:
* But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were STILL SINNERS, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)
* Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. (1 Timothy 1:15)
* But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would BELIEVE in him and RECEIVE eternal life. (1 Timothy 1:16)
I have been a terrible sinner, Jeff. I have needed Jesus Christ the Physician. His atonement covered my sin pre-hoop jumping. Your leaders put up boundaries that don't exist.
We believe and RECEIVE as sinners (not meritoriously earn) eternal life -- just like those in Christ did before the Mormon church ever came along and labeled the rest of us "apostates."
Jeff you could no more overcome your spiritual cancer (sin) of you own volition, effort, diligence, commandment-keeping, membership alliance, and obedience to any given regimen than physical cancer. It's time for a NEW SAVIOR in your life...One Who can heal you PHYSICALLY and SPIRITUALLY right now in HIS POWER with signs & wonders following this convo.
As always, its a circular discussion with you.
I have accepted Jesus Christ, just as I have said. He alone saves and has saved me. Good works follow them that believe, they do not make their faith and they do not earn them a spot in Heaven. They are a natural conclusion to the acceptance and following of Him.
A real conversion produces this. Christ said, “if ye love me, keep my commandments.” We believe that, but you confuse which comes first, the horse or the cart in LDS faith...in fact, as with many denominations, members get this wrong too.
We are not earning our way to Heaven Col, despite your protestations and declarative staements to LDS people to the contrary about what they believe, as though you can see in their hearts and make this determination. You cannot, only God in Heaven and His Son can.
No, we are not and cannot “earn” our way to Heaven. We are just trying, as He commanded us, out of our love for Him, to keep His commandments as we ubnderstand them.
Again, God’s blessings to you.
First, the Journal of Dicourses is not scripture, and it is not where the “Doctrine of the Church,” is offical.
It is a set of sermons and speeches given by members and leaders of the Church over a long period of time.
Some of it is Doctrine, other is not, but is the personal feelings of those who gave it. You can find the official Church doctrine on the Church web site:
Now, as to that quote, I believe that when He returns, which is when this is referring to, that the Lord Jesus Christ shall rule the whole earth, and I believe He shall accomplish it through the body of His saints, through His church.
Will that be exactly like the LDS Church is today?...porbably not exactly, but we believe it will be very close and that He will institute it and use it to govern in perfect rightousness, which we as imperfect mortals cannot do.
Whatever it is, all of us who truly and sincerely believe in, have faith in, and have accepted Him will be there to witness it and will all gladly abide by it at that day.
Say what ever in your man made teachings - but DO NOT ADD 'GOD said' 'God decreed' or the HOLY SPIRIT this or Jesus said, unless it is Scriptural - because as THEY ARE ONE - THEY AGREED - or any other of manipulation words to insinuate it.
“What the world calls ‘Mormonism’ will rule every nation...God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it. This will make the heathen rage.
Remember - everything that is not of God will be destroyed when HE returns and that includes any man made teachings - ONLY TRUTH will stand and rule. And that 'Mormonism' statement will go up in smoke! As THE TRUTH comes from HIM ALONE!!
Will the mormons join with the Christians in the move to HIS church? It will mean giving up their false beliefs.
What a joy and relief it will be to them to find that all the laws, covenants, and rituals have been unnecessary and His Grace will be there for true believers.
I'll be so glad when this election is over and the political Witch Hunt to destroy a man through his religious beliefs rather than his liberal record is OVER! These Mormon bashing threads are way over the top.
Signed,
A Baptist raised Christian
Responses appriciated. Thank-you.
The questions that I have in regards to the Mormon faith is these two, why the “extra book” called the Book of Mormon and why you do not put a Cross on the top of your temples?
Without the Cross of Christ, there cannot be a risen and living Lord.
You saw a sign and read into it what you wanted to see. I read the parable of the wheat and the weeds and know what the “open doors” campaign really meant.
I admit that there is a huge leftist influence in the UMC leadership. They are out of touch with the local church congregations, who tend to be conservative. But they also inject the radical thought needed to keep us from closing our doors on the world and hiding “our” God from it because we’ve decided that the heathens outside aren’t worthy.
Not mormon bashing, exposing mormonISM.
When you say Jesus you apparently are talking about the Biblical Jesus, who is eternal.
When lds say jesus they are talking about a created being.
When you say God you apparently are talking about the eternal, always was and always will be.
When lds say god they are talking about a being who was once a man and earned his godhood.
When you say Salvation you apparently are talking about the sufficiency of Grace from the Cross.
When lds say salvation they are talking about works, there is no cross but the garden, rules, regulations and Joseph Smith helping out the lds jesus.
I am not sure why you apparently are unable to grasp those differences.
How do you reconcile that with the teachings of mormonism and the lds prophets?
April 8, 1973, LDS Apostle Mark E. Petersen proclaimed that salvation "comes only through the Church itself as the Lord established it. Therefore it was made clearly manifest that salvation is in the Church, and of the Church, and is obtained only through the Church."
"From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are, I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent" (Journal of Discourses 7:289).
The Book of Mormon says of salvation: "for we know that is is by grace that we are saved, after all that we can do" (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23).
George Q. Cannon "If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by Joseph Smith; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him." -1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142, Apostle George Q. Cannon
Joseph Fielding Smith: "that which man merits through his own acts through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.134).
Bruce McConkie: "Jesus kept the commandments of his Father and thereby worked out his own salvation, and also set an example as to the way and the means whereby all men may be saved" (The Mortal Messiah, Vol.4, p.434).
Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, pg. 153:"Each command we obey sends us another rung up the ladder to perfected manhood and toward godhood; and every law disobeyed is a sliding toward the bottom where man merges into the brute world"
So in order to be “Christian” such is ignored...
Well the Saints may well be right for once, these are indeed the Latter Days...
Kymbaya...
Well the Saints may well be right for once, these are indeed the Latter Days...
Kymbaya...
For your edification, from the Southern Baptist Missions Board...
http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbnew.aspx?pageid=8589952813
Let's consider your claim Jeff. Since you are using half-truth to mean whatever you want it mean, let's start with a definition:
half–truthDefinition of HALF-TRUTH1: a statement that is only partially true2: a statement that mingles truth and falsehood with deliberate intent to deceive
Please note that Merriam Webster defines it EXACTLY as I used it.
I have sincerely born you my witness and it is up to you to deal with it however you will. But the witness is sincere and it is true. It is not "finely crafted" it is not meant to hide anything, it is simply my wintess and the feelings of my own heart regarding my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. The fact that you think you have to tell me what I believe, and then try and define my words to fit that definition, is what is really happening here, and it ios ashame that you feel you have to be so judgemental...but if that is your desire, so be it. I am more than content for others reading to make up their own mind, and as I stated, ready, willing, and comfortable to stand before my Savior when He calls me, for I know He knows my heart and the truth of my convictions to Him. God's best to you and yours.
Totally posted before I wanted it to... sorry. I’ll try again.
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