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To: vladimir998
>>There is, in fact, no demonstrable connection between the Virgin Mary and pagan stories.<<

Oh really? Jeremiah castigates the people for making offerings to the queen of heaven.

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

And isn’t it interesting that the concept of Mary being the “mother of God” was declared in Ephesus where Diana was worshiped as the “queen of heaven”. We find the pressure put on the Apostles from Ephesus in Acts 19.

Acts 19:24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen;

25 Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth.

26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:

27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.

28 And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.

29 And the whole city was filled with confusion: and having caught Gaius and Aristarchus, men of Macedonia, Paul's companions in travel, they rushed with one accord into the theatre.

30 And when Paul would have entered in unto the people, the disciples suffered him not.

31 And certain of the chief of Asia, which were his friends, sent unto him, desiring him that he would not adventure himself into the theatre.

32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused: and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.

33 And they drew Alexander out of the multitude, the Jews putting him forward. And Alexander beckoned with the hand, and would have made his defence unto the people.

34 But when they knew that he was a Jew, all with one voice about the space of two hours cried out, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.

35 And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter?

36 Seeing then that these things cannot be spoken against, ye ought to be quiet, and to do nothing rashly.

37 For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of churches, nor yet blasphemers of your goddess.

38 Wherefore if Demetrius, and the craftsmen which are with him, have a matter against any man, the law is open, and there are deputies: let them implead one another.`

Incorporating pagan symbols, rituals, and practices seems to be the Catholic Churches way to placate those who it wants to become members.

There are other references to the “queen of heaven” concept in pagan religions which God called an abomination. Now would you find that concept contained in anything the Apostles or Jesus taught?

31 posted on 04/23/2012 9:44:22 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
The fact that a pagan deity was known as the queen of heaven doesn't mean this term can't rightfully be applied, in another sense altogether, to Mary. The pagan king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, is called the king of kings by Daniel (Dn 2:37), yet this doesn't preclude Jesus from being called by the same title (Rv 17:14; 19:16).

have you ever read rev 1:6 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. - so, in heaven to reign as kings and Queens. Mary is in heaven (or do you doubt that?), so add those two ...

36 posted on 04/23/2012 12:43:27 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: CynicalBear

or lets take another one — Ba’al — that’s canaanite for Lord. So, ya saying that to call God Lord is pagan?


37 posted on 04/23/2012 12:47:22 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: CynicalBear
now, tell me why you don't listen to Christ's words?

Jesus said


40 posted on 04/23/2012 12:58:01 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: CynicalBear
And, if you want to give proof, prove the Trinity Doctrine ...... ALL of it without using the tradition of the Ecumenical fathers

Note -- ALL of it:
the Father is 100% God
the Son is 100% God
the Holy Spirit is 100% God
All are co-equal
All are co-powerful
All are co-existing
All are omniescient (IOWs exist inifitously and outside of time and space)
That All live in All time and space

41 posted on 04/23/2012 1:00:53 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: CynicalBear
Furthermore, to a proponent of the Gap theory of creationism, how can you explain that without what is NOT there?

do you realize that it is inconsistent with God creating everything in six days, as Scripture states?

Do you realize that this theory if you hold to it puts death, disease, and suffering before the Fall, contrary to Scripture?

42 posted on 04/23/2012 1:04:58 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: CynicalBear
Incorporating pagan symbols, rituals, and practices

Wow, folks use that to compare Odin's handing on a tree to condemn us Christians. wow...

43 posted on 04/23/2012 1:13:10 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: CynicalBear

You wrote:

“Oh really?”

Yes, really.

“Jeremiah castigates the people for making offerings to the queen of heaven.”

Those were pagans, not Christians. The queen of heaven they made offerings to was not the Virgin Mary. Again, there are no demonstrable connections between the Virgin Mary and pagan stories. You’re just proving my point for me.

“And isn’t it interesting that the concept of Mary being the “mother of God” was declared in Ephesus where Diana was worshiped as the “queen of heaven”. We find the pressure put on the Apostles from Ephesus in Acts 19.”

No concept was declared in Ephesus. At the COUNCIL of Ephesus, the DOCTRINE of Mary as the Theotokos was defined. As every orthodox Christian knows and acknowledges, Jesus is God, and Mary is His mother, therefore, Mary is the mother of God. Holding the council in Ephesus merely showed that paganism had been crushed by Christianity.

“Incorporating pagan symbols, rituals, and practices seems to be the Catholic Churches way to placate those who it wants to become members.”

Demonstrate that there is a connection between the Virgin Mary and pagan stories. Otherwise, everything else you say is just another anti-Catholic failure.

“There are other references to the “queen of heaven” concept in pagan religions which God called an abomination. Now would you find that concept contained in anything the Apostles or Jesus taught?”

Yes. They knew Jesus was a king. What do you call the mother of a king? A queen.

I knew you would fail to show ANY demonstrable connection between the Virgin Mary and pagan stories. You’ll keep failing too.


75 posted on 04/23/2012 8:24:26 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: CynicalBear; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
And isn’t it interesting that the concept of Mary being the “mother of God” was declared in Ephesus where Diana was worshiped as the “queen of heaven”.

The term *mother of God* does not show up in a keyword search of the Bible.

However, THIS term does, as used and inspired by the Holy Spirit....

John 2:1 On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.

John 2:3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”

Acts 1:14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.


161 posted on 04/26/2012 7:41:31 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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