Posted on 03/29/2012 5:37:17 AM PDT by Colofornian
John Dehlin first started the Open Stories Foundation as a means of giving Mormons with questions of faith a neutral resource for questions. Now, after having polled more than 3,000 doubting members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Dehlin will release his survey results at a conference at Utah Valley University on Thursday.
I went through my own struggles with my testimony 11 or 12 years ago when I was seminary teacher, Dehlin says. It was really painful and hard for me...
Since that time, Dehlin has started a podcast, Mormon Stories, that runs in conjunction with his nonprofit the Open Stories Foundation. The organization and the podcast...host...discussions on tough subjects in LDS teachings, from polygamy to the delays in allowing Black members to receive the priesthood. Since doing the podcast, Dehlin has been working on a survey of individuals in the church who are having a crisis of faith...
The survey focuses just on disbelieving Mormons and tries to get a glimpse of who they are, whether they are still active in the church or have since left the faith.
For example, Dehlin notes that 87 percent of male and 77 percent of female respondents had church callings before they began to question their faith. The survey even found that 20 percent of male respondents had served as bishops.
The results also examine factors that have pushed members to doubt the churchs teachings, with 74 percent of respondents citing ceasing to believe in the theology as a major factor...
Hopefully, members of the church and church leaders will stereotype them less, punish them less and, frankly, become more aware of the difficult issues themselves so they can at least have empathy for those who struggle, Dehlin says.
To check out the survey, visit www.WhyMormonsQuestion.Org...
(Excerpt) Read more at cityweekly.net ...
(So much for those who portend that "theology" doesn't matter)
Per the survey results from over 3,000 Mormons seriously reviewing their faith --
--see UNDERSTANDING MORMON DISBELIEF: Why do some Mormons lose their testimony, and what happens to them when they do? for 26-page results!
-- Here are the top five "General Factors Contributing to Disbelief"...[this is found on page 8 chart of results]:
1. I ceased to believe in the church's doctrine/theology (74%)
2. I studied church history and lost my belief (70%)
3. I lost faith in Joseph Smith (70%) [my note: A very bad place to place & transfer faith toward to begin with!]
4. I lost faith in the Book of Mormon (65%)
5. I lost confidence in the general authorities (50%)
Two other factors within the Top 10 included
"I did not feel spiritually edified at church" (47%)
and "Church's stance on race issues (blacks, native Americans, etc.)" (43%).
In contrast to the reasons Mormons & Mormon leaders often pin upon such disbelievers, only 4% said it was because they were offended by someone in the church and 4% also pinpointed "I wanted to engage in behaviors viewed as sinful by the church" [the very bottom reasons listed on the chart].
12% said they "received a spiritual witness to leave the church and go elsewhere"...Over 1/4 said they lost their faith in God/Jesus.
In breaking down specific factors of import to provoking Mormon women vs. men into disbelief of their faith...
...polygamy/polyandry was actually THE TOP specific issue of concern to women surveyed...probably because they realized the "underlying" character of Joseph Smith...especially as one who would "marry" 11 already-married women...
...for men the #1 specific issue has been learning the reality how the Book of Abraham that Joseph Smith pretended to "translate" has been revealed to be an Egyptian funeral document. This specific issue is of major concern among men in their 30s, or 40s -- per p. 11 bar-chart.
Three other key specific issues among men in their 30s & 40s (in ranked order) were:
* Masonic influences in the temple ceremony
* Issues with the authenticity or credibility of the priesthood restoration
* Mountain meadows massacre [the first 9/11 terrorist slaughter in this country]
Iow...when Mormon study history...they see Joseph Smith was...
...influenced more horizontally [polygamy -- in bed -- with women; & "theft" -- horizontal "borrowing" of temple ceremony components] than he was vertically as a so-called "receiver" of direct "revelations" from the Mormon gods...
...and that also extends to Joseph Smith's "First Vision" accounts.
On this last one, we have to "read in" to the survey results as to what has bothered Mormon men in their 30s & 40s...but I think it is:
(a) Too many varied First Vision accounts;
(b) Its universal claims -- that 100% of Christian creeds are an "abomination" to the Mormon god
The Apostles Creed, for example, doesn't really have anything objectionable to Mormon beliefs. Yet the unnamed entities which appeared to Joseph Smith labeled it an "abomination" along with the rest of Christian creeds.
The institutionalized discrimination against people of color was of particular concern. I'm glad it's not part of the general doctrine promoted today, but it's too recent to escape questioning, IMHO.
My p"art Lamanite" son agrees, although I'll abstain from posting his thoughts.
Concerns indeed!
I will say the Mormons I know are uniformly good, decent and hard working people. I don't discuss faith with them at all. I don't know how they'd reconcile themselves with these facts. I wonder how they would respond to the questions we have? I would prefer to dismiss it altogether and simply accept them and leave them to their faith.
The next set of Missionaries, however, will need to have some good answers.
Perhaps you saw the other thread I posted this morning...mentioning a number of "Lamanite" Mormon "scriptures"..."scriptures" that haven't been removed from Lds teaching today worldwide...[SINCE the Lds church is STILL reprinting & translating MILLIONS of these...they're still "teaching" it!]:
Here's that thread: "Renounce and Repudiate": Will Republicans Hold Romney to Obama Standard?
#1...when you auditioning for godhood, of course you'll be on your best behavior!
#2...when you check out "goodness" under the hood, so to speak, Jesus of the Bible did NOT share that presumption.
He said: "'Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered. 'No one is good--except God alone.'" (Mark 10:18).
Jesus wasn't saying He personally wasn't good; but He was addressing the misguided presumption behind the comment: That man is good [I believe Jesus is addressed mans isness at root ]
Jesus levels the playing field before the cross by undercutting any spiritual pride that presumes anybody from any religion doesnt need Him as our great physician ("It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick...For I have NOT COME to call the righteous, but sinners."--Matthew 9:12)
Jesus is for the person who understands their personal cancerous diagnosis of sin.
...we're all spiritually unhealthy and depraved -- including your "good"
Mormons
Christians
other religious
[Clarification on depraved: It doesn't mean being as bad as we can be; just that no part of our being is untouched by sin].
Yet that doesn't pre-empt people from all faiths accomplishing some degree of good works. I would quickly add, though, whatever degree that is, its vastly overstated. Why?
* Some folks do good works and give the credit for those works to God the Holy Spirit working through them yet Christianity & some of the cults are usually the only ones who acknowledge the Holy Spirit to begin with;
* Some folks do outwardly good works and assume the credit for themselves, stealing God's glory. Theft of God's glory thereby defeats any act otherwise qualifying itself as "good"...
...which leads us directly back to my #1 basic Mormon premise: Temple Mormons (not all Mormons, but temple Mormons) are essentially auditioning for godhood with good works. And with that, I say, thats a self-defeating proposition. When a boomerang motive underlies good works, those works become selfish, disqualifying in Gods eyes the goodness of that work. God sees the heart, not just the outward outcome.
There are numerous reasons why a Mormon might lose his testimony. Here are a few of the most obvious ...
JESUS: Hey Smith! Remember that boast you made about doing more than even I had done to hold the 'church' together?
JOSEPH SMITH: Where am I?
JESUS: Don't you remember? A few seconds ago you were in that jail.
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah; but where am I NOW?
JESUS: Don't you remember? Does bang - bang ring a bell?
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah - that crummy gun I had was about USELESS!
JESUS: I hope you left instructions on how to hold your church together.
JOSEPH SMITH: Dang! I knew there was SOMETHING I was forgetting!
JESUS: Looks like there's a power struggle going on down there.
JOSEPH SMITH: Yeah; there was always SOMEone who wanted the power that I held - especially over the LADIES - wink wink.
JESUS: No need to worry about that now; remember what my friend Matthew wrote down?
JOSEPH SMITH: This? At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven (Matthew 22:30)
JESUS: That's it.
JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.
JESUS: Nah - it was right.
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh well; it was fun while it lasted. My buds will still get it on with the girls.
JESUS: Uh; I'm sorry; in just a few more years; your followers will cavein to the United States government and abandon the 'Eternal Covenant' that you came up with.
JOSEPH SMITH: ME!? YOU are the one that told me to do that!
JESUS: Sorry; but you must have mistranslated what I told you. What part of Do NOT commit ADULTERY did you not understand?
JOSEPH SMITH: mumble....
JESUS: What did you say?
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, nothing.
JESUS: Well; it was interesting talking to you; but now I must get back to perparing a place for those who believe in Me.
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, yeah; the Celestial Kingdom.
JESUS: No...
JOSEPH SMITH: The Telestial one?
JESUS: Nope.
JOSEPH SMITH: SUREly not the TERRESTRIAL one!!
JESUS: Nope. Didn't you read that the mind of man had NOT conceived of it? Paul wrote it down in 1 Corinthians 2:9.
JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.
JESUS: No; it wasn't.
JOSEPH SMITH: You SURE?
JESUS: Yes. Now I must be going: what did you say your name was again?
JOSEPH SMITH: Joseph Smith.
JESUS: Hmmmm. According to my Heavenly FAITHbook, you didn't sign in as one of my friends - sorry, I never knew you.
JOSEPH SMITH: But....
I would like a “nice” Mormon to look me in the face and tell me what they think of me, a Christian, in light of this passage STRAIGHT FROM THE BOOK OF MORMON
1 NEPHI 14:10
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the bother is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
Doesn’t sound real “nice” to me
“Hopefully, members of the church and church leaders will stereotype them less, punish them less and, frankly, become more aware of the difficult issues themselves so they can at least have empathy for those who struggle”
Active shunning of "apostates" is an accepted method of control by the mormon leadership, as it is in other cults. This is illustrated in this article by Dallin H Oaks, one of the twelve "apostles" of the mormon church.
FR thread on "Love and Law" HERE
An informative post from the FR thread by A More Perfect Union Post #46
Ping to post #10
1. I ceased to believe in the church’s doctrine/theology (74%)
2. I studied church history and lost my belief (70%)
3. I lost faith in Joseph Smith (70%) [my note: A very bad place to place & transfer faith toward to begin with!]
4. I lost faith in the Book of Mormon (65%)
5. I lost confidence in the general authorities (50%)
- - - - -
All of that happened to me, but in a different order.
For me it was 5, 2, 1, 3, 4.
You must be a hankerin' fer The LIST!
Welcome to MORMONism 101
While we are waiting to start; enjoy the artwork on our walls.
If some of it seems shifty to you, just look at it real closely
and it will stop moving, but another location will then start to crawl on you.
Do NOT think our DOCTRINE is this way!
"For other (sometimes academic, sometimes personal) statements by historians of Mormon background concerning the writing of Mormon history, see notes 4 and 5 above, and also Leonard J. Arrington, "Preface," Great Basin Kingdom: An Economic History of the Latter-day Saints, 1830-1900 (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1958), esp. viii-ix;Marvin S. Hill, "The Historiography of Mormonism," Church History 28 (Dec. 1959): 418-26;Klaus J.Hansen, "Reflections on the Writing of Mormon History," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 1 (Spring 1966): 158-60;Richard L. Bushman, "Taking Mormonism Seriously," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 1 (Summer 1966): 81-84;Bushman, "The Future of Mormon History," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought (Autumn 1966): 23-26;Arrington, "The Search for Truth and Meaning in Mormon History," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 3 (Summer 1968): 56-66;Bushman, "Faithful History," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 4 (Winter 1969): 11-25;Fawn M. Brodie, Can We Manipulate the Past? (Salt Lake City: Center for the Study of the American West, University of Utah, 1970);Richard D. Poll, "God and Man in History," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 7 (Spring 1972): 101-09;Hill, "Brodie Revisited: A Reappraisal," Dialogue: A [p.100]Journal of Mormon Thought 7 (Winter 1972): 85;Hill, "Secular or Sectarian History? A Critique of No Man Knows My History," Church History 43 (Mar. 1974): 78-96;William Mulder, "Fatherly Advice," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 9 (Winter 1974): 77-80;Mulder, "History Is Then and Now: A Conversation with Leonard J. Arrington, Church Historian," Ensign 5 (July 1975): 8-13;Mulder, "The Mormon Angle of Historical Vision: Some Maverick Reflections," and Marvin S. Hill, "The 'Prophet Puzzle' Assembled: Or, How to Treat Our Historical Diplopia toward Joseph Smith,: Journal of Mormon History 3 (1976): 13-22, 101-05;Poll, "Nauvoo and the New Mormon History: A Bibliographical Survey," Journal of Mormon History 5 (1978): 105-123;James B. Allen, "Line Upon Line," Ensign 9 (July 1979): 32-39;Charles S. Peterson, "Mormon History: Some Problems and Prospects," Encyclia: Journal of the Utah Academy of Sciences, Arts and Letters 56 (1979): 114-26;Charles S. Peterson, "Mormon History: A Dialogue with Jan Shipps, Richard Bushman, and Leonard Arrington," Century 2 [BYU] 4 (Spring-Summer 1980): 27-39;Richard Sherlock, "The Gospel beyond Time: Thoughts on the Relation of Faith and Historical Knowledge," Sunstone 5, (July-Aug. 1980): 20-23;James L. Clayton, "History and Theology: The Mormon Connections: A Response," Sunstone 5 (Nov.-Dec. 1980): 51-53;Roger Elvin Borg, "Theological Marionettes': Historicism in Mormon History," Thetean: A Student Journal of History (Provo, UT: Beta Iota Chapter of Phi Alpha Theta, Brigham Young University, 1981): 5-20;Arrington, "The Writing of Latter-day Saint History: Problems, Accomplishments, and Admonitions," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 14 (Fall 1981): 119-29;Davis Bitton, "Mormon Biography," Biography: An Interdisciplinary Quarterly 4 (Winter 1981): 1-16;Clayton, "Does History Undermine Faith?" Sunstone 7 (Mar.-Apr. 1982): 33-40;Ronald K. Esplin, "How Then Should We Write History? Another View," Sunstone 7 (Mar.-Apr. 1982): 41-45;Jay Fox, "Clio and Calliope: Writing Imaginative Histories of the Pacific," Proceedings of the Mormon Pacific Historical Society, Third Annual Conference, April 10, 1982, 12-19;Ronald W. Walker, "The Nature and Craft of Mormon Biography," Brigham Young University Studies 22 (Spring 1982); 179-92;Bitton, "Like the Tigers of Old Time," Sunstone 7 (Sept.-Oct. 1982): 44-48; Melvin T. Smith, "Faithful History: Hazards and Limitations," Journal of Mormon History 9 (1982): 61-69;Arrington, "Personal Reflections on Mormon History," Sunstone 8 (July - Aug. 1983): 41-45;Smith, Faithful History/Secular Faith," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 16 (Winter 1983): 65-71;Thomas G. Alexander, "Toward the New Mormon History: An Examination of the Literature on the Latter-day Saints in the Far West," in Michael P. Malone, ed., Historians and the American West (Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 1983), 344-68; Smith, "Faithful History/Secular Religion," John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 3 (1983): 51-58;Hill, "Richard L. Bushman: Scholar and Apologist," Journal of Mormon History 11 [p.101](1984): 125-33;Lavina Fielding Anderson, "The Assimilation of Mormon History: Modern Mormon Historical Novels," Mormon Letters Annual, 1983 (Salt Lake City: Association for Mormon Letters, 1984), 1-9;Arrington, "Why I Am a Believer," and Walker, "A Way Station," Sunstone 10 (Apr. 1985): 36-38, 58-59;Grant Underwood, "Re-visioning Mormon History," Pacific Historical Review 55 (Aug. 1986): 403-26;Alexander, "No Way to Build Bridges," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 22 (Spring 1989): 5;Hill, "The New Mormon History Reassessed in Light of Recent Books on Joseph Smith and Mormon Origins," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 21 (Autumn 1988): 115-27;Poll, History and Faith: Reflections of a Mormon Historian (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1989);Hansen, "Arrington's Historians," Sunstone 13 (Aug. 1989: 41-43; "Coming to Terms with Mormon History: An Interview with Leonard Arrington," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 22 (Winter 1989): 39-54;Hill, "Afterword," Brigham Young University Studies 30 (Fall1990): 117-24;David B. Honey and Daniel C. Peterson, "Advocacy and Inquiry in Mormon Historiography," Brigham Young University Studies 31 (Spring 1991): 139-79;Gary James Bergera, "The New Mormon Anti-Intellectualism," Sunstone 15 (June 1991): 53-55;D. Michael Quinn, "Editor's Introduction," The New Mormon History: Revisionist Essays on the Mormon Past (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1991);Malcolm R. Thorp, "Some Reflections on New Mormon History and the Possibilities of a 'New' Traditional History," Sunstone 15 (Nov. 1991): 39-46;Douglas F. Tobler and S. George Ellsworth, "History: Significance to Latter-day Saints," in Ludlow, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 3:595-98;Richard P. Howard, Restoration Scriptures: A Study of Their Textual Development (Independence, MO: Herald House, 1969);Richard P. Howard, "Latter Day Saint Scriptures and the Doctrine of Propositional Revelation," and Paul M. Edwards, "Why Am I Afraid to Tell You Who I Am?" in Courage: A Journal of History, Thought and Action 1 (June 1971): 209-25, 241-46;Richard P. Howard, "The Effect of Time and Changing Conditions on Our Knowledge of History," Saints' Herald 120 (June 1973): 54;Paul M. Edwards, "The Irony of Mormon History," Utah Historical Quarterly 41 (Autumn 1973): 393-409;Robert B. Flanders, "Some Reflections on the New Mormon History," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 9 (Spring 1974): 34-41;Richard P. Howard, "The Historical Method as the Key to Understanding Our Heritage," Saints' Herald 121 (Nov. 1974): 53;Paul M. Edwards, "The Secular Smiths," Journal of Mormon History 4 (1977): 3-17;F. Henry Edwards, "Engagement with Church History," John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 1 (1981): 30-33;Richard P. Howard, "Adjusting Theological Perspectives to Historical Reality," Saints' Herald 129 (Sept. 1982): 28;C. Robert Mesle, "History, Faith, and Myth," Sunstone 7 (Nov.-Dec. 1982): 10-13;Richard P. Howard, "Themes in Latter Day Saint History," John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 2 (1982): 23-29;Richard P. Howard, "The Changing RLDS Response to Mormon Polygamy: A Preliminary Analysis," John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 3 (1983): 14-28;Richard P. Howard, "The Problem of History and Revelation," Saints' Herald 131 (Oct. 1984): 24;Paul M. Edwards, "Our Own Story," Sunstone 10 (Jan.-Feb. 1985): 40-41;Alma R. Blair, "RLDS Views of Polygamy: Some Historiographical Notes," John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 5 (1985): 16-28;Paul M. Edwards, "The New Mormon History," Saints' Herald 133 (Nov. 1986): 12-14, 20;W. Grant McMurray, "'As Historians and Not as Partisans': The Writing of Official History in the RLDS Church," and Roger D. Launius, "A New Historiographical Frontier: The Reorganization in the Twentieth Century," John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 6 (1986): 43-52, 53-63;Don H. Compier, "History and the Problem of Evil: Reflections on the Philosophical and Theological Implications of the 'New Mormon History,'" and Flanders, "Review," John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 8 (1988): 45-53, 91-93;Roger D. Launius, "Whither Reorganization Historiography?"; Paul M. Edwards, "A Time and a Season: History as History," John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 10 (1990): 24-50, 85-90; and Paul M. Edwards, "A Community of Heart," Journal of Mormon History 17 (1991): 28-34;Leonard J. Arrington, "Historian as Entrepreneur: A Personal Essay," Brigham Young University Studies 17 (Winter 1977): 193-209;Arrington, "The Writing of Latter-day Saint History: Problems, Accomplishments and Admonitions," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 14 (Fall 1981): 119-29;Davis Bitton, "Ten Years in Camelot: A Personal Memoir," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 16 (Autumn 1983): 9-35;Howard C. [p.97]Searle, "Historians, Church," in Ludlow, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 2:591."
So it may not be doctrine, but it makes a big difference if you're writing or researching LDS history, this 'faith-promoting' deal.
We even have faithful reviews of non-faithful books about writing faithful history published by faithful history journals: Gary F. Novak, "Review of Faithful History: Essays on Writing Mormon History by George D. Smith," FARMS Review of Books 5/1 (1993).
Thank you, I will read it and have my son take a look.
Imagine these (like Jacob 3:5) embedded in hundreds of 30 second sound bytes!
Romney is done before he started.
Also, with the race-hatred obozo is stirring up, this could seriously endanger other mormons.
This is going to get very ugly.
We have been sounding the alarm since Romney ran in 2007. Don't say you haven't been warned.
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