CHRISLAM: The Whore of Babylon in it's final appearance?

Have you not read the Old Testament?

What happened to Samson for his disobedience? What about the Babylonian exile?

What about the holocaust? Was God too weak or scared of Hitler to stop it?

Gods use of the ungodly to judge and discipline His people is a very clear biblical concept.

Have you not read the Old Testament? What happened to Samson for his disobedience? What about the Babylonian exile? ...

I answered your claim regarding the rapture. You said that God will use sinful men to carry out his wrath. I gave you clear scripture references to show that God uses his angels to pour out his wrath on the earth AFTER the elect are removed (the Day of the Lord).

God does not use evil men to carry out this judgement. These men are running to hide themselves in the clefts of the rocks when the day of the Lord arrives:

12* And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13* And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14* And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15* And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; (Revelation 6:12-15)

Perhaps “discipline and judgement” are better terms than wrath. God still uses the ungodly for his purposes per Romans 8:28.

God specifically told Hagar He had a plan for her offspring Ishmael.

I suggest you study you entire bible instead of proof-texting a verse from Revelations.

Perhaps “discipline and judgement” are better terms than wrath. God still uses the ungodly for his purposes per Romans 8:28.

You quote Romans 8 out of context -- it has to do with the suffering of saints, not the wrath which God will pour out on his enemies. Remember, you brought up this topic, namely, the post rapture events.

"Wrath" is a good Bible word. John the Baptist used it:

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" (Matthew 3:7; see also Luke 3:7).

John the beloved also used the word:

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life: and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36)

This is a disturbing picture of the pending wrath which awaits every unbeliever, although he doesn't know it. Every unsaved person we know, upon death, will discover to his horror the wrath of the God. (See the story of the rich man and Lazarus -- Luke 16:19-31).

Jesus describes the events which must precede his return. See Matthew 24, Mark 13, Revelation 1:7. I presented Revelation, because it covers the post rapture events twice from different perspectives.

The day of the Lord is mentioned in many places, but the clearest are in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, which give us confirming and conforming accounts of the events preceding the day of the Lord and the rapture. Revelation provides considerably more detail of the day of the Lord (and, of course, the events which follow):

"[Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. (15) And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and rocks of the mountains (16) and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the of the Lamb!] (17) For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" (Revelation 6:15-17)

This is not the perspective of those who will be raptured, but those who remain to receive his wrath.

God specifically told Hagar He had a plan for her offspring Ishmael.

Yes, and Paul explains the significance of this plan:

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." (Romans 9:22; see also Galatians 4:22-31 where Paul explains the significance of Hagar and the freewoman.)

I suggest you study you entire bible instead of proof-texting a verse from Revelations.

Revelation has no "s".

My use of Revelation for doctrine on this topic is not "proof-texting". (You have used this term carelessly.) Revelation EXPLICITELY states how God's wrath will be poured out, when he returns: compare Revelation 8:1-10:8 and Revelation 16:1-17. This was a subject which you brought up -- you [erroneously] speculated that God might use the ungodly to "discipline and judge" after the rapture. I corrected you with scripture in context.

You still failed to address my other point, namely that things like the Babylonian exile and holocaust were examples of God using ungodly people as discipline and judgement upon His people.

Revelation 3:19 says that God disciplines those He loves.

What part of God allowing the ungodly to cause the godly to suffer as discipline for disobedience is too difficult for you to understand?

Romans 8:28 applies to this - God’s word is still truth, before and after the rapture.

You still failed to address my other point, namely that things like the Babylonian exile and holocaust were examples of God using ungodly people as discipline and judgement upon His people.

I was NEVER discussing this point.

You went into great detail “correcting” my use of the term “wrath of God” referring to post tribulation events.

I admitted MY use of the term “wrath” was incorrect.

All I was trying to do was make a point that after the rapture, radical islamist will continue their brutality, thinking they are doing the will of allah, but they are really doing the will of God.

I’m not sure what point you were trying to make with your statement of the term “wrath” being a sound biblical word, but you obviously misunderstood my point.

I pray that your self esteem got whatever boost it needed by correcting my error.

All I was trying to do was make a point that after the rapture, radical islamist will continue their brutality, thinking they are doing the will of allah, but they are really doing the will of God.

If one presumes a pre-tribulation (not pre-wrath) rapture, this may be true. But I am not a pre-tribber. Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, 2 Thess 2, make it clear that Chrisitans will undergo great tribulation/affliction, such as the world has not known up until that time. When the day of the Lord arrives, that is when the elect (believers) will be raptured, and God will pour out his wrath. Islamicists and everyone else who is left will be scrambling to simply survive the judgment which immediately follows.

I’m not sure what point you were trying to make with your statement of the term “wrath” being a sound biblical word, but you obviously misunderstood my point.

I was trying to get you to state your presuppositions, while I revealed my own. I do not equate tribulation/affliction with wrath, because the Bible preserves this distinction. I supplied numerous verses (in context) to show this. You called this "proof-texting" (unkind).

I pray that your self esteem got whatever boost it needed by correcting my error.

Hardly. I find such discussions unpleasant. Egos are fragile, people take offense so easily. This forum is particular difficult for the thin skinned.

I am a pre-tribber, and I respectfully disagree with your presuppositions. Good day.