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To: MikeSteelBe
Perhaps “discipline and judgement” are better terms than wrath. God still uses the ungodly for his purposes per Romans 8:28.

You quote Romans 8 out of context -- it has to do with the suffering of saints, not the wrath which God will pour out on his enemies. Remember, you brought up this topic, namely, the post rapture events.

"Wrath" is a good Bible word. John the Baptist used it:

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" (Matthew 3:7; see also Luke 3:7).

John the beloved also used the word:

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life: and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36)

This is a disturbing picture of the pending wrath which awaits every unbeliever, although he doesn't know it. Every unsaved person we know, upon death, will discover to his horror the wrath of the God. (See the story of the rich man and Lazarus -- Luke 16:19-31).

Jesus describes the events which must precede his return. See Matthew 24, Mark 13, Revelation 1:7. I presented Revelation, because it covers the post rapture events twice from different perspectives.

The day of the Lord is mentioned in many places, but the clearest are in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, which give us confirming and conforming accounts of the events preceding the day of the Lord and the rapture. Revelation provides considerably more detail of the day of the Lord (and, of course, the events which follow):

"[Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. (15) And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and rocks of the mountains (16) and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the of the Lamb!] (17) For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" (Revelation 6:15-17)

This is not the perspective of those who will be raptured, but those who remain to receive his wrath.

God specifically told Hagar He had a plan for her offspring Ishmael.

Yes, and Paul explains the significance of this plan:

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." (Romans 9:22; see also Galatians 4:22-31 where Paul explains the significance of Hagar and the freewoman.)

I suggest you study you entire bible instead of proof-texting a verse from Revelations.

Revelation has no "s".

My use of Revelation for doctrine on this topic is not "proof-texting". (You have used this term carelessly.) Revelation EXPLICITELY states how God's wrath will be poured out, when he returns: compare Revelation 8:1-10:8 and Revelation 16:1-17. This was a subject which you brought up -- you [erroneously] speculated that God might use the ungodly to "discipline and judge" after the rapture. I corrected you with scripture in context.

24 posted on 03/19/2012 5:16:47 PM PDT by nonsporting
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To: nonsporting

You still failed to address my other point, namely that things like the Babylonian exile and holocaust were examples of God using ungodly people as discipline and judgement upon His people.

Revelation 3:19 says that God disciplines those He loves.

What part of God allowing the ungodly to cause the godly to suffer as discipline for disobedience is too difficult for you to understand?

Romans 8:28 applies to this - God’s word is still truth, before and after the rapture.


25 posted on 03/21/2012 4:40:06 AM PDT by MikeSteelBe (Austrian Hitler was, as the Halfrican Hitler does.)
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