Mormons' macabre Jewish baptisms won't benefit Mitt

South Florida Sun-Sentinel ^ | Feb. 4, 2012 | Rachel Patron

[Colofornian]

...I attended a luncheon for the Holocaust Museum...Each year I ask myself, Why am I here? ...Tis a gruesome tradition.

I think of my grandfather, Rabbi Jacob Meyer Rakowski... My grandfather was the...last — descendant of a rabbinic dynasty hailing back to 11th century France. At age 82, grandpa was gassed in Auschwitz, together with 47 members of my parents' families. I last saw him two years earlier, when my parents, my brother and I were deported to Siberia.

I'm retelling this old history because now, with Mitt Romney possibly becoming the Republican nominee, it's important to remember that his Church of Latter Day Saints, the Mormons, had most likely baptized my dead grandfather, a ritual they've been performing on 6 million dead Jews...

SNIP

So tell me truly, does my grandfather need to have his body snatched so he can be redeemed in a Kingdom of God he never wanted to enter?

SNIP

It's interesting to note the Catholic Church had outlawed this rite as early as the 4th century. But it was resurrected 1,500 years later by American Mormons. As a result, today we have an argument between Mitt Romney, Rabbi Jacob Meyer Rakowski, and me — his only surviving grandchild. Plus 6 million dead Jews.

SNIP

...they believe in choice, stipulating that any dead person can refuse to be baptized — but so far they'd heard no objections. (I kid you not.)

Every Jewish organization has begged the Mormons to stop. They promised to do so, but continue the practice. And they've never explained why they perform this necrophiliac aberration.

I therefore demand, for my grandfather and the rest of the dead, that Mormons immediately reverse all baptisms. They keep a great set of books and will have no problem to publish lists of un-baptized Jews...

[MarkL]

Nonsense. Something doesn't become offensive because a "victim" claims offense.

So there is nothing that can cause offense. Interesting statement. An individual or group that continues to do something that they know is considered offensive by others IS provoking them. So were I to begin ranting about your beliefs, it's not offensive to you,because as the victim, you claim offense. So there are no standards of behavior, and we can all say what ever we like, without having to worry about what anyone else thinks. Interesting.

What Mormons do is utterly irrelevant to your ancestors or mine. Let them have their delusions. Getting all offended about it doesn't achieve anything except giving you something to feel offended about.

And incite hatred and mistrust, as well as violence.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“If the Mormons are right, then they are doing the Jews a service. If the Jews are right, then the Mormons do the Jews no harm.”

As usual, when it comes to mormons, they are wrong.

[Zakeet]

Excellent general summary of some of the major events in the Missouri Mormon War. Of course, the Saints have seriously manipulated accounts of the actual events -- with the RLDS (now renamed Community of Christ) being guilty of stretching things more than their Utah based cousins. With that in mind, I might venture to clarify a few points in your response.

There's usually only two periods designated as including hostilities in Missouri

You omitted the Zion's Camp Expedition in 1836 ... something the Saints also do because it is a major embarrassment. Joseph marched off to Missouri to administer divine justice by slaughtering gentiles in revenge for their burning of the LDS printing press in Independence. The Saints made it as far as a point in Central Missouri near where the Salt River flows into the Missouri River when they were stricken with cholera. Despite Joseph's prophesies of guaranteed success, the foray was a dismal failure and is therefore conveniently ignored by the Saints.

You're talking about just three Missouri counties (NOT the entire state).

Additionally, the Danites attacked and killed apostates in what the historian Hubert Bancroft has deemed the First Mormon Civil War. In other words, it was a situation of Mormons killing Mormons. It is my understanding that much of that action, especially Porter Rockwell's raids, took place in Clinton, County, west of Far West, where the terrified settlers had fled. Nevertheless, your point about the fighting being confined to a relatively small area is well taken.

Mormons overdramatize how long these hostilities lasted in Missouri ... maybe 40-45 days in Sept/Oct 1838 -- violence all occurring in Oct.

The Mormon on Mormon killing started in early April after word of Joseph's and Sidney's whereabouts reached Kirtland and the Danite Army was able to make its way to Far West. The Mormon terror campaign in Gallatin began in early August, and the Saints were burning Gentile farms and stealing consecrated goods in Daviess County in early September.

If the people [of Missouri] come on us to molest us, we will establish our religion by the sword. We will trample down our enemies and make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Quran or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us – Joseph Smith or the Sword – History of the Church, Vol. 3, p. 167.

You omitted Joseph's October 14, 1838 speech declaring Jihad on the Gentiles in your summary of facts.

On October 25, 1838, the Battle of Crooked River: Mormon forces attacked (unknowingly?) the Missouri state militia under the command of Samuel Bogart ... result[ing] in the death of three militia and the LDS leader, David Patten.

This action was actually a knowingly ambush. Bogart was a Methodist preacher and Missouri national guardsman in charge of about two dozen soldiers. The Saints drove the solders back with withering gunfire and when the troops returned to claim their fallen comrades, they discovered the corpses had been mutilated -- body parts had been sliced off. Patten had legally changed his name to "Captain Fear-Not" a few weeks prior to the battle, and was killed when, apparently believing his new name, made an exposed solo charge and caught a round in the chest.

But Jacob Hawn was never a Mormon...

True, and the Haun's Mill Massacre on October 30, 1836 was never a massacre in the true sense of the word. Modern accounts aside, the Guard conducted an investigation of the incident and according to the accounts of nearly 400 soldiers: the troops were suddenly attacked by Mormons as the troops marched in from the east; they returned fire on Hawn's barn (where the Mormon's fire was concentrated); they stopped firing when the Mormons stopped; approximately 20 or the approximately two dozen Mormon casualties (accounts vary) were men (the Saints contend an almost opposite number of 20 of the 24 were women and children).

[donmeaker]

Of course centrist Republicans will push centrists. Of course leftist Democrats will push leftists. What kind of a world would it be if they didn’t or worse, couldn’t.

I vote for the lesser of evils. Our system is intelligently designed to select from the two top candidates. Even in 1912, with a two former and popular presidents running, all they succeeded in doing was electing the southern racist progressive Democrat.

[donmeaker]

Sometimes one releases urine with only relief in mind. Other times one trims the grass on a grave, in the reverent belief that a kept grave shows respect for the dead. Others would insist that only one of the correct class keep the grave.

When I was in Germany, there was a Jewish cemetery in the small town where I was stationed. It was unkept. Some of the Christian soldiers gathered volunteers, and led groups of fellow soldiers to trim the vegetation, and straighten the stones. We were mostly not Jews. We did the best we could. It was what we could do. Sadly, there were insufficient local members of ‘the tribe’.

[Yardstick]

Not at all. Once pretty much every Jewish organization and thousands of individuals had notified the Mormon Church that it was offensive and they should stop, their intent became one of insult and provocation.

So we agree then that the Mormon baptisms aren't like peeing on a grave, since one doesn't need to be notified that peeing on a grave is offensive.

Furthermore, while I agree that Jews are offended by this, that doesn't change the Mormons' intent. Your offendedness doesn't create intent on their part.

Even their being aware that their baptisms are offensive to you doesn't create intent on their part. All it shows is that they are willing to accept your offendedness. It does not show that they seek it. In fact, most likely they would prefer not to offend you. But they have a choice to make between their religious practice and not offending you, and apparently they value the former over the latter.

That's what really bugs you: their willingness to go ahead and do their baptisms despite the fact that it offends you. I'm pretty sure that would bug me too, but it's not the same as being wronged because they intend to offend you.

So, the Mormons are guilty of being offensive in the second degree here, but not in the first as you are charging them with.

[Seeing More Clearly Now]

Jews who died as martyrs died “for the sanctification of God’s’ name,” that is specificially the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For the Mormons to even suggest that these martyrs need a different God is insensitive and disrespectful to these martyrs and their families. Mormons have said that if a person turns out to be in their own ancestral line, they will baptize the person, even if the person also has Jewish descendents. This is the “out” that the Mormons use in their wholesale surrogate dunking. It’s not just a matter of what floats their boat; it’s a matter of the honor of the memory of the Jewish martyrs.

[Elsie]

But that might explain the level of hatred against Mormons for so long, and even here on Free Republic.

Yup!

That HATRED is REALLY shown in reply #24; isn't it!!!

[Elsie]

It might also have been a contributing factor as to why it was legal and rather popular to kill Mormons in the state of Missouri for so long.

But them SHOW ME folks were NOT slick enough to track down and KILL them wily RLDS Mormons; who ended up with the PROPERTY the fearfull followerws of BY left behind!

[Elsie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sects_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

[Elsie]

JESUS: Hey Smith!       Remember that boast you made about doing more than even I had done to hold the 'church' together?

JOSEPH SMITH: Where am I?

JESUS: Don't you remember? A few seconds ago you were in that jail.

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah; but where am I NOW?

JESUS: Don't you remember? Does bang - bang ring a bell?

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah - that crummy gun I had was about USELESS!

JESUS: I hope you left instructions on how to hold your church together.

JOSEPH SMITH: Dang! I knew there was SOMETHING I was forgetting!

JESUS: Looks like there's a power struggle going on down there.

JOSEPH SMITH: Yeah; there was always SOMEone who wanted the power that I held - especially over the LADIES - wink wink.

JESUS: No need to worry about that now; remember what my friend Matthew wrote down?

JOSEPH SMITH: This? “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30)

JESUS: That's it.

JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.

JESUS: Nah - it was right.

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh well; it was fun while it lasted. My buds will still get it on with the girls.

JESUS: Uh; I'm sorry; in just a few more years; your followers will cavein to the United States government and abandon the 'Eternal Covenant' that you came up with.

JOSEPH SMITH: ME!? YOU are the one that told me to do that!

JESUS: Sorry; but you must have mistranslated what I told you. What part of Do NOT commit ADULTERY did you not understand?

JOSEPH SMITH: mumble....

JESUS: What did you say?

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, nothing.

JESUS: Well; it was interesting talking to you; but now I must get back to perparing a place for those who believe in Me.

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, yeah; the Celestial Kingdom.

JESUS: No...

JOSEPH SMITH: The Telestial one?

JESUS: Nope.

JOSEPH SMITH: SUREly not the TERRESTRIAL one!!

JESUS: Nope. Didn't you read that the mind of man had NOT conceived of it? Paul wrote it down in 1 Corinthians 2:9.

JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.

JESUS: No; it wasn't.

JOSEPH SMITH: You SURE?

JESUS: Yes. Now I must be going: what did you say your name was again?

JOSEPH SMITH: Joseph Smith.

JESUS: Hmmmm. According to my Heavenly FAITHbook, you didn't sign in as one of my friends - sorry, I never knew you.

JOSEPH SMITH: But.... 

[Elsie]

Personally, I think transubstantiation is creepy.

SORRY; but we P's & C's can recognize an attempt to get US fighting between ourselves while the deceived MORMONs slink away.

[Elsie]

You seem to want to throw away others’ freedom of religion because it doesn’t agree with you.

Needs more straw.

You seem to want to throw away MY freedom of SPEECH because it doesn’t produce only Faith Building scenarios in the LDS heresy.

[Elsie]

I defend their right to do so.

Who don't?

They should be aware, however, that the RIGHT to do that may, and DOES upset certain folks tremendously.

That MORMONism does not CARE that it upsets them doesn't seem very LOVING.

---

The Israelis are UPSET that IRAN is CONTINUING on a Nuclear path; too.

Keep watching the news...

[Elsie]

The Israelis are UPSET that IRAN is CONTINUING on a Nuclear path...

Israel has 5,851,700 Jews living there.

America has 6,544,000.

[Elsie]

One thing we do not need to empower is the general sense that anything that offends must be wiped out.

He who continually pokes the dog thru the fence; must not complain when the offended dog gets out and bites him.

[Elsie]

Of course, I am fortunate enough to be descended from a line of staunch Christians ...

Not me; as I had to UNlearn what 'society' had taught me about Christianity, and then make my OWN decision as a young man. It only stuck about 3 years; and then I wandered around doing my OWN thing for WAY too long, before I found my way back to Him.

[Elsie]

But you’ve overlooked the intent, which is too big a piece of this to be left out.

---

Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power.
The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions.
There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."

-Daniel Webster

[Elsie]

Let me think long and hard about that...

You might want to think 'long and hard' about the stuff that was LEFT OUT of the FIRST sentence:

...a guy who is tangentially connected to some weird off shoot / cult that might "baptise" me after i am dead and buried as a proud American and a kosher, shomer shabbat Jew.