The "Traditions" of the catholic church is not Christ's will
Posted on 02/02/2012 6:57:50 PM PST by Vinylly
I had just learned that our church in Seattle is leaving the Presbyterian Churches USA into a new organizing body called The Evangelical Covenant Order of Presbyterians. Two of the largest churches in the Seattle area, also Presbyterians are sponsers this effort. I haven't been able to figure out from their website if The Fellowship of Presbyterians is the same organization. (www.fellowship-pres.org ) It is also rumored that this exudus from Presbyterian Churches USA was a rebellion aganinst their recent vote to allow gays to become ministers. But there is nothing in their website that mentions this. Does anyone have any outside information other then their own website about The Fellowship of Presbyterians or The Evangelical Covenant Order of Presbyterians ?
Face it.
This constant fissioning is not Christ's will for His Church. It is a terminal flaw in what is commonly called "protestantism" - one "protest" after another, all leading to the same result.
Give it up and come home.
So you’re suggesting we leave a Bible believing, Christ centered church to join the cult of Catholics? Where we chase after idolatry praying to Mary and other dead Christians, and spend our lives jumping through sacramental hoops for “the church”? Nah.
Any feel for how many congregations and people are making the jump?
So you’re suggesting we leave a Bible believing, Christ centered church to join the cult of Catholics?Or you can stay with the cult you are in that ordains women, gays and celebrates queer marriage. As for that "Bible Believing" stuff, really?
Where we chase after idolatry praying to Mary and other dead Christians, ...
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin Mary, He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again; he ascended into heaven, he is seated at the right hand of the Father, he will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen
Which church are you at?
The "Traditions" of the catholic church is not Christ's will
Really?
A wise counselor, the Holy Spirit, has been sent to guide you in all truth, correct?
Now, either that wise counselor is a fool and a liar, to guide however many presbyterian "churches" there are in all truth, with said truths being mutually incompatible, OR said counselor does not exist, OR your understanding (yes, you are testifying as to YOUR understanding, with no authority to distinguish YOURS from any of the thousands of other protestant "authorities" who differ with you and each other) - or YOUR understanding is defective.
Of these possibilities, you must see that the most probable is that it is not Christ or the Holy Spirit who are in error, but you yourself.
We Prysbyterians recite and believe in the Apostles Creed just as the Catholics do and have always been told the Catholic Church is the ‘Mother Church’. Our church is but one block away from St. James Cathedral. We work together in aiding the hungry and the homeless. There is no amnosity between us. ALL should work together as one body as Satan is strong and has invaded our churches. United, working together we will prevail. That is the word of God and is what Paul taught his congregations. Our form of worship may be different but we are of one faith.
Im not charismatic nor do I practice my faith in a liberal church....
Hail Mary full of grace...
pray for us sinners...
NEW TEXT
I believe in one God, 1
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible. 2
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, 3
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made,
consubstantial with the Father; 4
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit
was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, 5
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. 6
He ascended into heaven and is seated
at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord,
the giver of life, who proceeds
from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
And one, holy, catholic
and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism 7
for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the 8 dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Here’s a guy who asks specifically about a particular evangelical Presbyterian group—not referring to Roman Catholicism at all, and you have to make it a Roman v. Protestant p*ssing match, complete with derisive cartoons?
Give me a break!
You’ll win no converts that way...
Since this is an "open" thread, any sort of derisive, nasty, vicious, vile, sewer behaviour is completely acceptable ... even laudatory ... so long as it carefully disguises itself as not being "personal".
That said ...
I actually agree with your objection ... likewise, I would hope that you might agree that when some Catholic brings up a topic regarding a particular Catholic group, Protestants trying to turn the thread into a Protestant vs Catholic foodfight complete with derisive cartoons is also objectionable.
Right?
I grew up in a large Presbyterian church which left the PCUSA in the ‘80s, joining the Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC) denomination. I also have a Masters of Theology degree from a very well respected evangelical Presbyterian seminary.
Looking at the Evangelical Covenant Order of Presbyterians (ECO) website above it appears ECO is very similar in that it is primarily made up of ex-PCUSA Churches. The EPC though, allows congregational freedom regarding women’s ordination, while the ECO “is fully committed to God’s equal call on women and men in ministry and leadership” (meaning, you must accept women pastors and elders or leave.....).
Hence this is a new Presbyterian denomination which is basically evangelical, and does not accept homosexual ordination, but....it is feminist.
I find that a hard row to hoe—to be a Bible believing Christian AND a feminist, as the New Testament clearly sets up men in Church leadership positions (12 male disciples for starters) plus the Apostle Paul said some pretty stern things prohibiting women to be in Church leadership over men.
Here’s short article from Ligonier Ministries (R.C.Sproul’s group), a solid evangelical Presbyterian group:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Female Authority
“Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.”
- 1 Timothy 2:11-12
Although it is hard to know everything the false teachers in Ephesus promoted, most commentators believe these “instructors” had many women followers (2 Tim. 3:6), including young widows who embraced the heretics’ asceticism, which included such things as avoiding certain foods and shunning remarriage (1 Tim. 4:1–5; 5:11–15). Paul’s words about jewelry (2:9–10) also indicate the presence of wealthy women who likely allowed churches to meet in their homes, the normal way the earliest Christians gathered for fellowship and teaching. These rich ladies probably let the errant elders infiltrate worship, and in turn they likely allowed the women to teach men.
Our look at 1 Timothy 2:11–12 cannot ignore this setting, but we must not assume that the passage’s cultural context means that its teaching is invalid today. Many people disagree, saying that Paul forbade women to hold authority over men in the church only temporarily and that women may now serve as elders. To answer this position we must look at what else the Bible says on the subject. Paul also addresses women in public worship in 1 Corinthians 14:33b–35, calling for their silence in a different context. This application of a similar principle in separate settings (Ephesus and Corinth) points to its universality. The universality of 1 Timothy 2:11–12 is also grounded in principles inherent in creation, which we will investigate further tomorrow. None of these principles, however, supports male superiority, for the Bible knows no such thing.
What Paul says in today’s passage is that women are barred from preaching and teaching in worship, not every kind of speaking. Paul assumes women will prophesy in Corinth (1 Cor. 11:4–5) and throughout Scripture women engage in speech acts in the worship service (like singing, see Ex. 15:20–21; Col. 3:16). First Timothy 2:11–12, then, is calling women to be attentive and not interruptive, prohibiting their ordination to the office of elder. Dr. R.C. Sproul writes, “Paul is saying that women can be involved in all kinds of…ministry in the church but…the role of juridical authority or of governing authority is not to be held by women” (Now That’s a Good Question, p. 346).
Coram Deo
Dr. John MacArthur says, “Paul is forbidding women from filling the office and role of the pastor or teacher. He is not prohibiting them from teaching in other appropriate conditions and circumstances” (The MacArthur Bible Commentary, p. 1,783). All of us have been blessed by mothers, women missionaries and Sunday school teachers, and other females who have taught us the Word without being elders. Let us thank God for the many godly women in our lives.
(from: http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/female-authority/ )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I agree with this, and the concept of sex-roles as a part of our gifting from God. Men and women are equally valuable...and neither is superior to the other, however, in the Church at least the Bible is clear that Christ-like male leadership is God’s way.
Looking at the Evangelical Covenant Order of Presbyterians (ECO) website above it appears ECO is very similar in that it is primarily made up of ex-PCUSA Churches. The EPC though, allows congregational freedom regarding women’s ordination, while the ECO “is fully committed to God’s equal call on women and men in ministry and leadership” (meaning, you must accept women pastors and elders or leave.....).Hence this is a new Presbyterian denomination which is basically evangelical, and does not accept homosexual ordination, but....it is feminist.
The PCUSA has been shedding people and groups for a while, as they successively reach different points beyond which they refuse to go. Anybody who's still in, has lived with female pastrixes for a long time. As I pointed out in the prior thread about the ECoP, anybody still there probably isn't very conservative.
Where will it end?
BTW, if you look at the ECOP website, it's easier to find employee insurance rates than what they believe.
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