If you do not know. I would not waste my time.
Posted on 01/14/2012 8:23:15 PM PST by bibletruth
In the present dispensation there is only ONE true Church, which is called the Body of Christ separate and distinct from the prophesied, earthly kingdom of Christ vested in redeemed National Israel as a called-out nation or church, assembly or congregation, above all other nations.
Judas didn't make it to the church...
Ya, the hundreds of millions of poor saps never had the opportunity for someone to buy their way out of purgatory...They're probably still there waitin'...
Maybe you should give your house to your Church in case you have a long lost relative sitting down there burning in purgatory...
Because Petros works just fine...
When you start out wrong, you have no choice but to end up wrong...
God did NOT say to build a church...And Jesus did NOT say the powers of death shall not prevail against it...
Confirmation (scriptures) there will only be one church, and no matter what, It will stand against all hell. Sorry I can only see this as being the Catholic Church, For what other church has the succession of Authority? Only one church can have Authority, The rest can and I know do serve in other ways.
There is no authority involved...Jesus did not give any one authority...God gave POWER...NOT authority...
Anyone can disagree all they want, but I will take the Word of God over the interpretations of Men.
I assume you mean the 'word' of God, the scriptures...How are you going to figure out the right interpretation if you don't even know what God said???
Well, let's tally them up. Produce your list.
Remove my name from your ping list. Thank you
Does a husband name a “stand in” or “vicar” between he and his wife ever?
"That would be because that verse is totally misinterpreted by the CC and contradicts the rest of scripture."
Even Irenaeus never uses this argument or any other argument for a divinely given special status for the Church of Rome. And the most straightforward explanation is that he never heard of such a doctrine.
ON THE ROMAN SUPREMACY: THE WITNESS OF IRENAEUS http://elvis.rowan.edu/~kilroy/christia/library/irenaeus.html
Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Hebrews 4:15-16 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Ephesians 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
I don’t see any earthly “priest” in any of those.
And you have supplied no documentation or bonafides to prove your expertise, so you opinion is pretty much WORTHLESS.
There is a certain mathematical operand called 'and'. We Catholics take all of the verses in Scripture. We do not select them as our whims decree as of this morning after breakfast.
The Apostles were the first clergy; they were given the authority to forgive or to retain sins. This authority has been handed down through the succession of the Apostles to the clergy we have today. Neither you nor I have that authority.
Like it or not.
Your tagline says it all.
Twice you reference me with no ping to me? Don’t talk about me and tell someone what I say without giving me a chance to defend myself if needed.
Peter is the Rock -vs- Jesus is the Rock > Perhaps there is another more obvious answer that ...(we) are missing. We need only look at the preceding verses to find it:
15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:15-18 Douay- Rheims)When Jesus talks about "this rock" he is not referring to Peter, but instead Peter's confession of faith in the preceding verses. Jesus isn't jumping from one subject (that He is the Christ) to another (primacy of Peter). It is a continuation of the same subject - who do people believe that Christ is. If you look at the following verse 20 you can see that Jesus has not changed subject because he is commanding them not to reveal that He is the Christ. > Jesus thus does not declare the primacy of Peter, but rather declares that his church will be built upon the foundation of the revelation of and confession of faith of Jesus as the Christ. The "rock" gentlemen is our faith in Christ. (posted by Between the Lines) ... [That was so well stated that I would only add, 'faith' is an action word, as in 'to faithe' in the delivering Power and Grace of God through Jesus Christ in the person of the Holy Spirit indwelling the faither.]
*********************
One method of Hermeneutical understanding of Matthew 16:18 is to do a word study of all the scriptures which were then known as the Holy Word of G-d when Y'shua spoke these words. This will allow one to understand that all of the Holy Word of G-d was inspired by YHvH; the whole counsel of G-d.
The only conclusion that one can come to unless you are predisposed to believe in man's tradition over the Holy Word of G-d is that Y'shua was speaking of himself as the "Rock " e.g.
Genesis 49:24 But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed [Or archers will attack...will shoot...will remain...will stay] supple, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
Deuteronomy 32:3 I will proclaim the name of the LORD. Oh, praise the greatness of our God!
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock , his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
Deuteronomy 32:15 ..... He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Saviour.
Deuteronomy 32:30 How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?
Deuteronomy 32:31 For their rock is not like our Rock , as even our enemies concede
1 Samuel 2:2 "There is no-one holy [Or no Holy One] like the LORD; there is no-one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.
2 Samuel 22:2 He said: "The LORD is my Rock , my fortress and my deliverer;
2 Samuel 22:3 my God is my Rock , in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn [Horn here symbolises strength.] of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my saviour — from violent men you save me.
2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
2 Samuel 22:47 "The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock ! Exalted be God, the Rock , my Saviour!
2 Samuel 23:3 The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: 'When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
Psalm 18:31 For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
Psalm 18:46 The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock ! Exalted be God my Saviour!
Psalm 19:14 May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.
Psalm 42:9 I say to God my Rock , "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"
Psalm 78:35 They remembered that God was their Rock , that God Most High was their Redeemer.
Psalm 89:26 He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Saviour.'
Psalm 92:15 ..... "YHvH is upright; he is my Rock , and there is no wickedness in him."
Psalm 95:1 Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.
Psalm 144:1 Praise be to the LORD my Rock , who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.
Habakkuk 1:12 O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock , you have ordained them to punish.
shalom b'shem Yah'shua (posted by XeniaSt)
Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.
Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.
And this indicates that the clergy has no authority to forgive or retain sins (as in the Catholic Church) how? I showed you the Scripture that is relevant to the Christian belief. The Holy Spirit guides, but only if one listens and follows. Do you listen and follow? If so, what is that mechanism by which you listen and follow?
I find that most Protestants have no clue when they claim that the Holy Spirit guides them as to the means that He purportedly guides them.
Ping to post
If you do not know. I would not waste my time.
What a load. Should I have asked this guy to ask Mary to ask her Son to forgive MY sins? His Eminence Aloisius Joseph Muench
Diocese Roman Catholic Diocese of Fargo, North Dakota
See Bishop of Fargo
Enthroned 1935
Reign ended 1959
Ordination June 8, 1916
Consecration October 15, 1935
Created Cardinal December 14, 1959
Rank Cardinal-priest
Born February 18, 1889
Died February 15, 1962 Rome, Italy
Buried Fargo, North Dakota
Denomination Roman Catholic
Aloisius Joseph Muench was an American prelate of the Roman Catholic Church. He served as Bishop of Fargo from 1935 to 1959, and as Apostolic Nuncio to Germany from 1951 to 1959. He was elevated to the cardinalate in 1959.
Muench was the most powerful American Catholic and Vatican representative in Allied-occupied Germany and subsequently in West Germany from 1946 to 1959 as the liaison between the U.S. Office of Military Government and the German Catholic Church in the American occupation zone (1946–1949), Pope Pius XII’s apostolic visitor to Germany (1946–1947), the Vatican relief officer in Kronberg im Taunus, Germany (1947–1949), regent in Kronberg (1949–1951), as well as nuncio to Germany.[1]
According to Barry’s biography, Muench focused on three goals: the Vatican mission for Catholic displaced persons and prisoners of war (funded by American donations brokered by Muench); maintaining the validity of the Reichskonkordat (a 1933 treaty between the Vatican and Germany); and the autonomy of German Catholic schools.[9]
Historian Michael Phayer views Muench’s dual appointment as significant: “Muech’s position was extraordinary. At one and the same time, he was President Truman’s Catholic liaison to OMGUS and Pius XII’s personal envoy to zonal Germany. Serving two masters, he listened to Rome, not Washington from the moment of his arrival in Germany”.[10]
Muench’s pastoral letter One World In Charity was published in installments (in the U.S. first in January 1946, and in occupied Germany one year later).[11] The 10,200 word letter was read from the diocese of Fargo’s pulpits weekly on the five Sundays between Shrove Tuesday and Passion Sunday, and then translated into German and printed first in German language newspapers in the United States.[12]
One World appeared in both religious and secular publications alongside statements denying Germans’ complicity in the Holocaust, especially the concept of collective guilt.[11] Muench received several letters from German Catholics commenting on One World; they regarded him as one who understood German “suffering”
One World referred to the Allied authorities as “other Hitlers in disguise, who would make of [the German] nation a crawling [Bergen-]Belsen.[14] One World argued that responsibility for the Holocaust lay only with a very few war criminals who had “revived the Mosaic idea of an eye for an eye”.[14]
According to Brown-Fleming, Muench’s sympathies in his writing matched his actions as one of the most active participants in the Vatican’s “postwar clemency campaign on behalf of convicted war criminals”.[14]
In at least four instances, Muench became involved in restitution disputes between Catholic Germans and Jews regarding property seized during the war; in each instance, Muench sided with the German Catholics, contacting highly placed German and American officials on their behalf.[16] Muench wrote in a September 1946 letter that “some of these gents exploit the fact that they were in concentration camps for their own benefit, although some were there because of an unsavory past”.[17]
Muench was also an opponent of interreligious dialog efforts that included Jews, opposing the organization of chapters of the National Conference of Christians and Jews (NCCJ) and the International Conference of Christians and Jews (ICCJ), among others, in occupied Germany.[19] In a 1948 letter to Carl Zietlow, a Minnesotan Protestant pastor of the NCCJ, Muench described the organization as unneeded because: “regarding anti-Semitism” he had “found very little of it”.[19]
According to Phayer, for Muench as well as Pius XII, the “priority was not the survivors of the Holocaust, but the situation of the German Catholic refugees in Eastern Europe who had been driven from their homes at the end of the war. Incredibly, Bishop Muench actually felt that their lot was comparable to that of the Jews during the Holocaust”.[20]
In February 1950, Pius XII instructed Muench to write a letter in support of clemency for some convicted German war criminals to General Thomas Hardy, the head of the U.S. Army European Command, who had the final word on all clemency decisions; with his new appointment as papal regent, Muench was to speak as a direct representative of the pope.[22]
As the Vatican urged Muench to press harder against the U.S. authorities, Muench wrote to Undersecretary Montini (future Pope Paul VI) warning him that Rome was on “dangerously thin ice”.[25]
Muench often preferred to work behind the scenes; for example, a letter from one of Muench’s secretaries provided Father Franz Lovenstein the contact information he had requested “with the understanding, of course, that you are not to use his name in connection with any letters or briefs that will be sent to those gentlemen”.[29] For example, in the case of Hans Eisle (former SS, convicted of medical experimentation on prisoners) there is some evidence that Muench’s intervention with General Clay in the summer of 1948 resulted in the commutation of Eisle’s execution (scheduled for June 1948) and Eisle’s eventual release in 1952.[20][30]
Nunciature (1951-1959)Muench’s role as apostolic visitor was upgraded to nuncio when the Allied High Commission permitted the Federal Republic to form an independent foreign affairs ministry in March 1951.[31] On March 9, 1951, Pope Pius XII appointed Bishop Muench papal nuncio to Germany with the title of archbishop.[32] Muench viewed it as no small honor to hold the nunciature formerly occupied by Pius XII himself.[20][33]
There is much evidence of genuine camaraderie between Pius XII and Muench. He met Eugenio Pacelli (the future pope) for the first time while Pacelli was nuncio to Bavaria, when Muench visited Munich as a student representative of the Catholic Central Verein of America (CCVA).[2]
Muench mourned the death of Pius XII in October 1958, telling friends that the pope “treated him with the affection and love of a father to his son”.
The correspondence between Muench and Pius XII focused almost exclusively on the various opinions shared by the two men, often with great levity. / According to Brown-Fleming, in one private audience between the two in May 1957 Pius XII told Muench a joke about Hitler dying, going to Heaven, and meeting the Old Testament Prophet Moses, who forgives Hitler; Hitler then asks Moses if he set fire to the burning bush himself, a tongue-in-cheek reference to the Reichstag fire, which apparently elicited a “big laugh” from Pius XII.
Muench’s papers from course of his work in Germany are well preserved. This makes them one of a very few collections of papers from German, American, or Vatican Catholic dignitaries of that time period that are “fully accessible to historians”.[40]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloisius_Joseph_Muench?oldid=0
Archbishop Stepinac meeting Croatian NAZI Ustasha leader Ante Pavelic ""From the very beginning the Catholic clergy worked in collaboration with the Ustashe. Archbishop Stepinac got appointed spiritual leader of the Ustashe by the Vatican in 1942. Stepinac, with ten of his clergy held a place in the Ustashe parliament. Priests served as police chiefs and officers of in the personal bodyguards of Pavelic. There occurred frequent BBC broadcasts on Croatia of which a February 16, 1942 typical report stated: "The worst atrocities are being committed in the environs of the archbishop of Zagreb [Stepinac]. The blood of brother is flowing in streams. The Orthodox are being forcibly converted to Catholicism and we do not hear the archbishop's voice preaching revolt. Instead it is reported that he is taking part in Nazi and Fascist parades." [Cornwell, p.256]
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