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To: CynicalBear
People who are not Cathoic and choose to believe a different version of events seem to never want to focus on tha verse “upon this rock you shall build my church and the gates of hell shall not pervail against it

"That would be because that verse is totally misinterpreted by the CC and contradicts the rest of scripture."

Even Irenaeus never uses this argument or any other argument for a divinely given special status for the Church of Rome. And the most straightforward explanation is that he never heard of such a doctrine.

ON THE ROMAN SUPREMACY: THE WITNESS OF IRENAEUS http://elvis.rowan.edu/~kilroy/christia/library/irenaeus.html

308 posted on 01/16/2012 7:58:35 AM PST by anglian
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To: anglian; CynicalBear
I offer the following wisdom from a previous discussion on the same topic, years ago ... I will refrain from adding anything of my own thoughts beyond this borrowed post:

Peter is the Rock -vs- Jesus is the Rock

> Perhaps there is another more obvious answer that ...(we) are missing. We need only look at the preceding verses to find it:
15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:15-18 Douay- Rheims)

When Jesus talks about "this rock" he is not referring to Peter, but instead Peter's confession of faith in the preceding verses. Jesus isn't jumping from one subject (that He is the Christ) to another (primacy of Peter). It is a continuation of the same subject - who do people believe that Christ is. If you look at the following verse 20 you can see that Jesus has not changed subject because he is commanding them not to reveal that He is the Christ. > Jesus thus does not declare the primacy of Peter, but rather declares that his church will be built upon the foundation of the revelation of and confession of faith of Jesus as the Christ. The "rock" gentlemen is our faith in Christ. (posted by Between the Lines) ... [That was so well stated that I would only add, 'faith' is an action word, as in 'to faithe' in the delivering Power and Grace of God through Jesus Christ in the person of the Holy Spirit indwelling the faither.]

*********************

One method of Hermeneutical understanding of Matthew 16:18 is to do a word study of all the scriptures which were then known as the Holy Word of G-d when Y'shua spoke these words. This will allow one to understand that all of the Holy Word of G-d was inspired by YHvH; the whole counsel of G-d.

The only conclusion that one can come to unless you are predisposed to believe in man's tradition over the Holy Word of G-d is that Y'shua was speaking of himself as the "Rock " e.g.

Genesis 49:24 But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed [Or archers will attack...will shoot...will remain...will stay] supple, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,

Deuteronomy 32:3 I will proclaim the name of the LORD. Oh, praise the greatness of our God!

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock , his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

Deuteronomy 32:15 ..... He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Saviour.

Deuteronomy 32:30 How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?

Deuteronomy 32:31 For their rock is not like our Rock , as even our enemies concede

1 Samuel 2:2 "There is no-one holy [Or no Holy One] like the LORD; there is no-one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.

2 Samuel 22:2 He said: "The LORD is my Rock , my fortress and my deliverer;

2 Samuel 22:3 my God is my Rock , in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn [Horn here symbolises strength.] of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my saviour — from violent men you save me.

2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

2 Samuel 22:47 "The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock ! Exalted be God, the Rock , my Saviour!

2 Samuel 23:3 The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: 'When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,

Psalm 18:31 For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

Psalm 18:46 The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock ! Exalted be God my Saviour!

Psalm 19:14 May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

Psalm 42:9 I say to God my Rock , "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"

Psalm 78:35 They remembered that God was their Rock , that God Most High was their Redeemer.

Psalm 89:26 He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Saviour.'

Psalm 92:15 ..... "YHvH is upright; he is my Rock , and there is no wickedness in him."

Psalm 95:1 Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.

Psalm 144:1 Praise be to the LORD my Rock , who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.

Habakkuk 1:12 O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock , you have ordained them to punish.

shalom b'shem Yah'shua (posted by XeniaSt)


314 posted on 01/16/2012 8:15:31 AM PST by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: anglian

That site has a very good explanation. Thank you for posting it.


331 posted on 01/16/2012 9:27:05 AM PST by CynicalBear
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