From Rome to Christ

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[dangus]

Actually, I didn’t fail to cite the references. Those are the charges of his excommunication; perhaps I wasn’t clear enough.

As for Beggars All: Luther wrote many volumes, many are an embarrassment to modern Luthers, like his calls for the severe repression of the Jews, that commonfolk were born to be fodder for cannons, that Christians should welcome the destruction of Western nations by Islamic Turks. So just because it’s not in Beggars All, I’m hardly going to withhold referencing it.

>> It fits Paul’s definition of an accursed Gospel since it misses the whole point of grace. Something Luther understood pretty well. <<

From those quotes, not too well at all.

The Catholic Church told Luther: Here is where we find out doctrines, in James, in Revelation, in Wisdom of Sirach, in 2 Peter, in Hebrews, in the books of the Maccabees. Luther did not refute the Catholic Church, but condemned books such as these, yes, including Revelation, James, Hebrew, etc. Luther considered these works of scripture to be what Paul was calling an accursed Gospel.

[dangus]

>> First of all....pointing the finger at other denominations and secular groups that have the same problems only gives the appearance that the Church is trying to mitigate its own failures. <<

What a laugh for you to say that. You’re the one who has abandoned any discussion of doctrine, and is merely slinging mud.

[caww]

If Catholic priests have the power to grant forgiveness from sin, why don’t they also possess the power to perform miracles?

Jesus said it was just as easy for him to say.. “Arise and walk” as to say “Thy sins are forgiven thee”.. (Luke 5:23)...... .... “But that you may know that the Son of man has power on earth to forgive sins he said to the paralytic ...I say to thee, arise, take up thy pallet and go to thy house.” (Luke 5:24).

Why can’t the Catholic priests do the same?... Since they cannot then it’s easy to draw the conclusion they do not have authority to forgive sins.

[dangus]

>> First of all....pointing the finger at other denominations and secular groups that have the same problems only gives the appearance that the Church is trying to mitigate its own failures. <<

Just this week, among the Baptists (whose church is 1/4 the size of the American Catholic church, yet outnumbers them manifold in recent years):

1/9: Former youth pastor charged with molestation
1/6: Former Baptist pastor, fresh out of jail after serving only three years, talks about starting a new church
1/3: Minister, charged with raping teen, now accused of on-line solicitation of a minor.

So, you’re citing one archdiocese, which, incidentally is equivalent to 1/4 of all Southern Baptists in population. The cases you cite reach back over 50 years. Yet in one week, look what the Baptists did.

So knock off your mudslinging.

[caww]

What does doctrine have to do with felony rape of children?Look, you’re the one who brought up ‘others’ aside from the catholic churches having a problem with sex abuse in their churches...I was responding to that...and it certainly wasn’t mud slinging...but facts as they are known.

[caww]

You're once again attempting to divert the attention away from the obvious...but then I should expect as much since your leadership plays duck and dodge when it's faced with the issue of child felony rape within it's Priesthood.... It's a pattern which has equally as obvious trickled down thru the rank and file to divert the attention away from themselves.

As long as the finger keeps getting pointed away from the breadth and width of the pedophiles and homosexuals within your church...hidden for centuries..and the Priests who do those dastardly acts...then the church will never be more than a house full phoney hot air.

Additionally...Had the catholic church not made continuous claims to be the one and ONLY holy and true church, and the body of Christ, then perhaps the stain of their sins against children...and covering it up.. and protecting the criminals,..and enabling further crimes to occur, rather than report to the authorities and have the mess handled properly, it would not have fared so badly in the eyes of the public......but because they did so/and do now they are rightly perceived as even more horrible than when found among others.

[dangus]

>> What does doctrine have to do with felony rape of children?Look, you’re the one who brought up ‘others’ aside from the catholic churches having a problem with sex abuse in their churches...I was responding to that...and it certainly wasn’t mud slinging...but facts as they are known. <<

I have nothing more to say to you. You’ve made it plain that you have no ability to defend the insane lies of the thread’s author, or even have a reasonable discussion of doctrine; now you’re just making up your own little reality. You started mudslinging in posts 295, 296, 310, 317, and 318. The first several replies to your mudslinging I made were purely doctrinal.

[caww]

From your own Churches database....and keep in mind this is only those caught and accused...many aren’t.

Overview of the BishopAccountability.org Database
of Publicly Accused Roman Catholic Priests, Nuns, Brothers,
Deacons, and Seminarians in the United States

This database is intended to provide the best possible answer to a simple question: According to a church-sponsored report based on diocesan records, 4,392 Catholic priests in the United States have been accused since 1950 of sexually abusing minors. Updates have increased the USCCB’s count to 5,600 priests accused through 2008.

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/db_overview.htm

[Cronos]

child felony rape

REad this article: Wis. man cleared after girl admits lying about sexual assault

At what point do you throw a man to the dogs because of an accusation? How do you know if the accusation is true or false?

[CynicalBear]

It’s the systemic, organized, ongoing cover ups at the highest levels that show the entire organization is corrupt. Anyone who believes that apostolic succession would allow that type of evil is not being honest with themselves.

[thesaleboat]

Tenth Rose
Miracles

While Saint Dominic was preaching the Rosary in Carcasone, a heretic made fun of the miracles and the fifteen mysteries of the Holy Rosary, and this prevented other heretics from being converted. As a punishment God suffered fifteen thousand devils to enter the man's body.

His parents took him to Father Dominic to be delivered from the evil spirits. He started to pray and begged everyone who was there to say the Rosary out loud with him, and at each Hail Mary Our Lady drove out one hundred devils out of the heretic's body and they came out in the form of red hot coals.

After he had been delivered he abjured his former errors, was converted and joined the Rosary Confraternity. Several of his associates did the same, having been greatly moved by his punishment and by the power of the Rosary.

The learned Franciscan, Carthagena, as well as several other authors, say that an extraordinary event took place in 1482: The Venerable James Sprenger and other religious of his order were zealously working to reestablish devotion to the Holy Rosary and also to erect a Confraternity in the city of Cologne.

Unfortunately two priests who were famous for their preaching ability were jealous of the great influence they were exerting through preaching the Rosary. So these two Fathers spoke against this devotion whenever they had a chance, and as they were very eloquent and had a great reputation they persuaded many people not to join the Confraternity.

One of them, bound and determined to achieve his wicked end, wrote a special sermon against the Rosary and planned to give it the following Sunday. But when it came time for the sermon he never appeared and, after a certain amount of waiting somebody went to fetch him. He was found dead, and evidently had died alone without any one to help him and without seeing a priest.

After convincing himself that death had been due to natural causes, the other priest decided to carry out his friend's plan and hoped to put an end to the Confraternity of the Rosary. However, when the day came for him to preach and it was time to give the sermon God punished him by striking him down with paralysis which deprived him both of the use of his limbs and of his power of speech.

At last he admitted his sin and likewise that of his friend and immediately, in his heart of hearts, he silently besought Our Lady to help him. He promised her that is she would only cure him he would preach the Holy Rosary with as much zeal as that with which he had formerly fought against it. For this end he implored her to restore his health and speech which she did, and finding himself instantaneously cured he rose up like another Saul, a persecutor turned defender of the Holy Rosary. He publicly acknowledged his former error and ever after preached the wonders of the Most Holy Rosary with great zeal and eloquence.

I am quite sure that freethinkers and ultra-critical people of today will question the truth of the stories in this little book, in the very same way that they have always questioned most things, but all that I have done has been to copy them from very good contemporary writers and also, in part, from a book that was written only a short time ago: "The Mystical Rose Tree," by the Reverend Antonin Thomas, O.P.

Everyone knows that there are three different kinds of faith by which we believe different kinds of stories:
• To stories of Holy Scripture we own DIVINE FAITH;
• To stories concerning other than religious subjects, which do not militate against common sense and which are written by trustworthy authors, we pay the tribute of HUMAN FAITH; whereas
• To stories about holy subjects which are told by good authors and are not in the slightest degree contrary to reason, faith, or morals (even though they may sometimes deal with happenings which are above the ordinary run of events) we pay the tribute of PIOUS FAITH.

I agree that we must be neither too credulous nor too critical and that we should remember that "virtue takes the middle course" - keeping a happy medium in all things in order to find just where truth and virtue lie. But on the other hand I know equally well that charity easily leads us to believe all that is not contrary to faith or morals:
"Charity ....believeth all things;" *1 in the same way pride induces us to doubt even well authenticated stories on the plea that they are not to be found in the Bible.

This is one of the devil's traps; heretics of the past who denied Tradition have fallen into it and overcritical people of today are falling into it too without even realizing it. People of this kind refuse to believe what they do not understand or what is not to their liking, simply because of their own spirit of pride and independence.

Link to the Full Document: The Secret of the Rosary

[caww]

Anyone who believes that apostolic succession would allow that type of evil is not being honest with themselves.

Correct.....Which is why they will never accept the truth presented about Peter, their Preisthood, the Pope without these there's nothing there.

They have made the Pope/Mary/Priests and leadership their God IMO. No different than other organizations who have a leader and co-horts the membership follow.

You know when I began looking closer at catholic doctrines and the beliefs it's members adhere to I never would have imagined possible that which they believe and practice....in fact I did try very hard to understand...it's been an eyeopener. I use to think it was just all fluff and such....but that the Gospel of Christ was clearly central. I was sooo mistaken. And the posters here just continue to affirm catholicism is far from the truth which Jesus intends we know.

[caww]

At what point do you throw a man to the dogs because of an accusation? How do you know if the accusation is true or false?

At what point do you sacrifice a child's safety? not to mention the devastation to their very soul and that of their families?

When the emphasis is on helping the abuser ...not helping the victim.. nor identifying other victims.... This is NOT repentance in any Christian understanding of the term....and this is not just a problem of individuals, but of the catholic church itself.

Furthermore if the actions of the catholic hierarchy, and the pope himself, with respect to these crimes are measured by the words of Jesus... then the crimes, the coverups, and the special pleading that is going on merit the following quotation:

"whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea"

Moreover...had the catholic church addressed the issues over the decades instead of hiding and protecting their clergy it's doubtful if any false accusations would have come about....but now rather than convict the very criminals they are retiring them, and a host of other measures taken which continues to "cover" the church and it;s leadership

Additionally,... because the church is "paying off" victims...they have brought on themselves this entire mess...and left themselves wide open for false accusations as well...the blame is completely on the church for the entire outcome...fairly or not the ultimate responsibility is on the church and it's leadership who were well aware of these happenings.

Gross sin has a price....covering that sin will always be even worse...it has been no secret among the membership or leadership that these rapes and abuse against children were occurring for decades.....there are no innocents among the membership or leadership....it's been a part of the catholic culture and all were aware of it.

[CynicalBear]

This is the one that shocked me the most.

“Jesus' teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ.” [http://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-I]

Anyone who doesn’t disavow that statement is surely not saved.

[caww]

That is a huge WOW!....and evidences they don't understand the scriptures...which would indicate they don't know Christ Jesus either as Salvation itself is based on His finished work.....but moreso how can they then understand the “Book of Life” ? They are so off base that their very salvation is at a mighty risk....only the Lord can remove that veil and as long as they see Catholicism as the means to their salvation then likely most are indeed lost.

[metmom]

While Saint Dominic was preaching the Rosary in Carcasone, a heretic made fun of the miracles and the fifteen mysteries of the Holy Rosary, and this prevented other heretics from being converted. As a punishment God suffered fifteen thousand devils to enter the man's body.

His parents took him to Father Dominic to be delivered from the evil spirits. He started to pray and begged everyone who was there to say the Rosary out loud with him, and at each Hail Mary Our Lady drove out one hundred devils out of the heretic's body and they came out in the form of red hot coals.

After he had been delivered he abjured his former errors, was converted and joined the Rosary Confraternity. Several of his associates did the same, having been greatly moved by his punishment and by the power of the Rosary.

Yeah...

right.....

I have some land in FL to sell you. Real nice waterfront property.....

[thesaleboat]

"The non-Catholic is not part of Christ’s Mystical Body, which is coterminous with the Catholic Church, whose dogmas, morals, and priorities are those of her Mystical Head, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. We learn them from Scripture and Tradition as authoritatively proclaimed by an infallible magisterium. By the very fact that a non-Catholic is a non-Catholic, he is not possessed of this sacred deposit of faith. He therefore lacks the proper supernatural outlook on reality. It is good when he agrees with us, but it is not enough; agreeing with God on one or two points is not sufficient. In charity, we must labor to help our non-Catholic friend agree with God on all points."

The Real Gospel of Life

[caww]

I don’t generally respond to articles which are posted to permote catholicism without a comment from the poster. There’s enough of those, and volumes of literature flooding here that we already have to scroll by to get to the posters understanding of what it’s saying to them..let alone if there’s any comment at all.

So if you have an opinion on what you believe then we can dialogue...otherwise this is just another catholic tactic seen here often....perhaps you don’t have an opinion but simply follow the Piped Piper?

[thesaleboat]

Sure caww, I would love to have a dialogue, my profile states what I believe in, would you like to start there? (Sincerely, that kinda looks sarcastic re-reading it but I’m being honest.)

[caww]

No, not being sarcastic just honest.