Which Came First: The Church or the New Testament?

As a Jewish convert to Christ via evangelical Protestantism, I naturally wanted to know God better through the reading of the Scriptures. In fact, it had been through reading the Gospels in the "forbidden book" called the New Testament, at age sixteen, that I had come to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and our promised Messiah. In my early years as a Christian, much of my religious education came from private Bible reading. By the time I entered college, I had a pocket-sized version of the whole Bible that was my constant companion. I would commit favorite passages from the Scriptures to memory, and often quote them to myself in times of temptation-or to others as I sought to convince them of Christ. The Bible became for me-as it is to this day-the most important book in print. I can say from my heart with Saint Paul the Apostle, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16).

The bad news is that often I would decide for myself what the Scriptures meant. For example, I became so enthusiastic about knowing Jesus as my close and personal friend that I thought my own awareness of Him was all I needed. So I would mark verses about Jesus with my yellow highlighter, but pass over passages concerning God the Father, or the Church, or baptism. I saw the Bible as a heavenly instruction manual. I didn't think I needed the Church, except as a good place to make friends or to leans more about the Bible so I could be a better do-it-yourself Christian. I came to think that I could build my life, and the Church, by the Book. I mean, I took sola scriptura ("only the Bible") seriously! Salvation history was clear to me: God sent His Son, together they sent the Holy Spirit, then came the New Testament to explain salvation, and finally the Church developed.

Let me hasten to say that the Bible is all God intends it to be. No problem with the Bible. The problem lay in the way I individualized it, subjecting it to my own personal interpretations-some not so bad, others not so good.

A STRUGGLE FOR UNDERSTANDING It was not long after my conversion to Christianity that I found myself getting swept up in the tide of religious sectarianism, in which Christians would part ways over one issue after another. It seemed, for instance, that there were as many opinions on the Second Coming as there were people in the discussion. So we'd all appeal to the Scriptures. "I believe in the Bible. If it's not in the Bible I don't believe it," became my war cry. What I did not realize was that everyone else was saying the same thing! It was not the Bible, but each one's private interpretation of it, that became our ultimate authority. In an age which highly exalts independence of thought and self-reliance, I was becoming my own pope! The guidelines I used in interpreting Scripture seemed simple enough: When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense. I believed that those who were truly faithful and honest in following this principle would achieve Christian unity. To my surprise, this "common sense" approach led not to increased Christian clarity and unity, but rather to a spiritual free-for-all! Those who most strongly adhered to believing "only the Bible" tended to become the, most factious, divisive, and combative of Christians-perhaps unintentionally. In fact, it seemed to me that the more one held to the Bible as the only source of spiritual authority, the more factious and sectarian one became. We would even argue heatedly over verses on love! Within my circle of Bible-believing friends, I witnessed a mini-explosion of sects and schismatic movements, each claiming to be "true to the Bible" and each in bitter conflict with the others. Serious conflict arose over every issue imaginable: charismatic gifts, interpretation of prophecy, the proper way to worship, communion, Church government, discipleship, discipline in the Church, morality, accountability, evangelism, social action, the relationship of faith and works, the role of women, and ecumenism. The list is endless. In fact any issue at all could-and often did-cause Christians to part ways. The fruit of this sectarian spirit has been the creation of literally thousands of independent churches and denominations. As I myself became increasingly sectarian, my radicalism intensified, and I came to believe that all churches were unbiblical: to become a member of any church was to compromise the Faith. For me, "church" meant "the Bible, God, and me." This hostility towards the churches fit in well with my Jewish background. I naturally distrusted all churches because I felt they had betrayed the teachings of Christ by having participated in or passively ignored the persecution of the Jews throughout history. But the more sectarian I became-to the point of being obnoxious and antisocial-the more I began to realize that something was seriously wrong with my approach to Christianity. My spiritual life wasn't working. Clearly, my privately held beliefs in the Bible and what it taught were leading me away from love and community with my fellow Christians, and therefore away from Christ. As Saint John the Evangelist wrote, "He who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?" (1 John 4:20). This division and hostility were not what had drawn me to Christ. And I knew the answer was not to deny the Faith or reject the Scriptures. Something had to change. Maybe it was me. I turned to a study of the history of the Church and the New Testament, hoping to shed some light on what my attitude toward the Church and the Bible should be. The results were not at all what I expected.

THE BIBLE OF THE APOSTLES My initial attitude was that whatever was good enough for the Apostles would be good enough for me. This is where I got my first surprise. As I mentioned previously, I knew that the Apostle Paul regarded Scripture as being inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16). But I had always assumed that the "Scripture" spoken of in this passage was the whole Bible-both the Old and New Testaments. In reality, there was no "New Testament" when this statement was made. Even the Old Testament was still in the process of formulation, for the Jews did not decide upon a definitive list or canon of Old Testament books until after the rise of Christianity. As I studied further, I discovered that the early Christians used a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint. This translation, which was begun in Alexandria, Egypt, in the third century B.C., contained an expanded canon which included a number of the so-called "deuterocanonical" (or "apocryphal") books. Although there was some initial debate over these books, they were eventually received by Christians into the Old Testament canon. In reaction to the rise of Christianity, the Jews narrowed their canons and eventually excluded the deuterocanonical books-although they still regarded them as sacred. The modern Jewish canon was not rigidly fixed until the third century A.D. Interestingly, it is this later version of the Jewish canon of the Old Testament, rather than the canon of early Christianity, that is followed by most modern Protestants today. When the Apostles lived and wrote, there was no New Testament and no finalized Old Testament. The concept of "Scripture" was much less well-defined than I had envisioned.

EARLY CHRISTIAN WRITINGS The second big surprise came when I realized that the first complete listing of New Testament books as we have them today did not appear until over 300 years after the death and resurrection of Christ. (The first complete listing was given by St. Athanasius in his Paschal Letter in A.D. 367.) Imagine it! If the writing of the New Testament had been begun at the same time as the U.S. Constitution, we wouldn't see a final product until the year 2076! The four Gospels were written from thirty to sixty years after Jesus' death and resurrection. In the interim, the Church relied on oral tradition-the accounts of eyewitnesses-as well as scattered pre-gospel documents (such as those quoted in 1 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Timothy 2:11-13) and written tradition. Most churches only had parts of what was to become the New Testament. As the eyewitnesses of Christ's life and teachings began to die, the Apostles wrote as they were guided by the Holy Spirit, in order to preserve and solidify the scattered written and oral tradition. Because the Apostles expected Christ to return soon, it seems they did not have in mind that these gospel accounts and apostolic letters would in time be collected into a new Bible. During the first four centuries A.D. there was substantial disagreement over which books should be included in the canon of Scripture. The first person on record who tried to establish a New Testament canon was the second-century heretic, Marcion. He wanted the Church to reject its Jewish heritage, and therefore he dispensed with the Old Testament entirely. Marcion's canon included only one gospel, which he himself edited, and ten of Paul's epistles. Sad but true, the first attempted New Testament was heretical. Many scholars believe that it was partly in reaction to this distorted canon of Marcion that the early Church determined to create a clearly defined canon of its own. The destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, the breakup of the Jewish-Christian community there, and the threatened loss of continuity in the oral tradition probably also contributed to the sense of the urgent need for the Church to standardize the list of books Christians could rely on. During this period of the canon's evolution, as previously noted, most churches had only a few, if any, of the apostolic writings available to them. The books of the Bible had to be painstakingly copied by hand, at great expense of time and effort. Also, because most people were illiterate, they could only be read by a privileged few. The exposure of most Christians to the Scriptures was confined to what they heard in the churches-the Law and Prophets, the Psalms, and some of the Apostles' memoirs. The persecution of Christians by the Roman Empire and the existence of many documents of non-apostolic origin further complicated the matter. This was my third surprise. Somehow I had naively envisioned every home and parish having a complete Old and New Testament from the very inception of the Church! It was difficult for me to imagine a church surviving and prospering without a complete New Testament. Yet unquestionably they did. This may have been my first clue that there was more to the total life of the Church than just the written Word.

THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO WHOM? Next, I was surprised to discover that many "gospels" besides those of the New Testament canon were circulating in the first and second centuries. These included the Gospel according to the Hebrews, the Gospel according to the Egyptians, and the Gospel according to Peter, to name just a few. The New Testament itself speaks of the existence of such accounts. Saint Luke's Gospel begins by saying, "Inasmuch as many [italics added] have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us ... it seemed good to me also ... to write to you an orderly account" (Luke 1:1, 3). At the time Luke wrote, Matthew and Mark were the only two canonical Gospels that had been written. In time, all but four Gospels were excluded from the New Testament canon. Yet in the early years of Christianity there was even a controversy over which of these four Gospels to use. Most of the Christians of Asia Minor used the Gospel of John rather than the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Based upon the Passion account contained in John, most Christians in Asia Minor celebrated Easter on a different day from those in Rome. Roman Christians resisted the Gospel of John and instead used the other Gospels. The Western Church for a time hesitated to use the Gospel of John because the Gnostic heretics made use of it along with their own "secret gospels." Another debate arose over the issue of whether there should be separate gospels or one single composite gospel account. In the second century, Tatian, who was Justin Martyr's student, published a single composite "harmonized" gospel called the Diatessaron. The Syrian Church used this composite gospel in the second, third, and fourth centuries; they did not accept all four Gospels until the fifth century. They also ignored for a time the Epistles of John, 2 Peter, and the Book of Revelation. To further complicate matters, the Church of Egypt, as reflected in the second-century New Testament canon of Clement of Alexandria, included the "gospels" of the Hebrews, the Egyptians, and Mattathias. In addition they held to be of apostolic origin the First Epistle of Clement (Bishop of Rome), the Epistle of Barnabas, the Preaching of Peter, the Revelation of Peter, the Didache, the Protevangelium of James, the Acts of John, the Acts of Paul, and The Shepherd of Hermas (which they held to be especially inspired). Irenaeus (second century), martyred Bishop of Lyons in Gaul, included the Revelation of Peter in his canon.

OTHER CONTROVERSIAL BOOKS My favorite New Testament book, the Epistle to the Hebrews, was clearly excluded in the Western Church in a number of listings from the second, third, and fourth centuries. Primarily due to the influence of Augustine upon certain North African councils, the Epistle to the Hebrews was finally accepted in the West by the end of the fourth century. On the other hand, the Book of Revelation, also known as the Apocalypse, written by the Apostle John, was not accepted in the Eastern Church for several centuries. Among Eastern authorities who rejected this book were Dionysius of Alexandria (third century), Eusebius (third century), Cyril of Jerusalem (fourth century), the Council of Laodicea (fourth century), John Chrysostom (fourth century), Theodore of Mopsuesta (fourth century), and Theodoret (fifth century). In addition, the original Syriac and Armenian versions of the New Testament omitted this book. Many Greek New Testament manuscripts written before the ninth century do not contain the Apocalypse, and it is not used liturgically in the Eastern Church to this day. Athanasius supported the inclusion of the Apocalypse, and it is due primarily to his influence that it was eventually received into the New Testament canon in the East. The early Church actually seems to have made an internal compromise on the Apocalypse and Hebrews. The East would have excluded the Apocalypse from the canon, while the West would have done without Hebrews. Simply put, each side agreed to accept the disputed book of the other. Interestingly, the sixteenth-century father of the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther, held that the New Testament books should be "graded" and that some were more inspired than others (that there is a canon within the canon). Luther gave secondary rank to Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation, placing them at the end of his translation of the New Testament. Imagine-the man who gave us sola scriptura assumed the authority to edit the written Word of God!

THE NEW TESTAMENT MATURES I was particularly interested in finding the oldest legitimate list of New Testament books. Some believe that the Muratorian Canon is the oldest, dating from the late second century. This canon excludes Hebrews, James, and the two Epistles of Peter, but includes the Apocalypse of Peter and the Wisdom of Solomon. It is not until A.D. 200-about 170 years after the death and resurrection of Christ-that we first see the term "New Testament" used, by Tertullian. Origen, who lived in the third century, is often considered to be the first systematic theologian (though he was often systematically wrong). He questioned the authenticity of 2 Peter and 2 John. He also tells us, based on his extensive travels, that there were churches which refused to use 2 Timothy because the epistle speaks of a "secret" writing-the Book of Jannes and Jambres, derived from Jewish oral tradition (see 2 Timothy 3:8). The Book of Jude was also considered suspect by some because it includes a quotation from the apocryphal book, The Assumption of Moses, also derived from Jewish oral tradition (see Jude 9). Moving into the fourth century, I discovered that Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea and the "Father of Church History," lists as disputed books James, Jude, 2 Peter, and 2 and 3 John. The Revelation of John he totally rejects. Codex Sinaiticus, the oldest complete New Testament manuscript we have today, was discovered in the Orthodox Christian monastery of Saint Catherine on Mount Sinai. It is dated as being from the fourth century and it contains all of the books we have in the modern New Testament, but also includes Barnabas and The Shepherd of Hermas. During the fourth century, Emperor Constantine was frustrated by the controversy between Christians and Arians concerning the divinity of Christ. Because the New Testament had not yet been clearly defined, he pressed for a clearer defining and closing of the New Testament canon, in order to help resolve the conflict and bring religious unity to his divided Empire. However, as late as the fifth century the Codex Alexandrinus included 1 and 2 Clement, indicating that the disputes over the canon were still not everywhere firmly resolved.

WHO DECIDED? With the passage of time the Church discerned which writings were truly apostolic and which were not. It was a prolonged struggle, taking place over several centuries. As part of the process of discernment, the Church met together several times in council. These various Church councils confronted a variety of issues, among which was the canon of Scripture. It is important to note that the purpose of these councils was to discern and confirm what was already generally accepted within the Church at large. The councils did not legislate the canon so much as set forth what had become self-evident truth and practice within the churches of God. The councils sought to proclaim the common mind of the Church and to reflect the unanimity of faith, practice, and tradition as it already existed in the local churches represented. The councils provide us with specific records in which the Church spoke clearly and in unison as to what constitutes Scripture. Among the many councils that met during the first four centuries, two are particularly important in this context: (1) The Council of Laodicea met in Asia Minor about A.D. 363. This is the first council which clearly listed the canonical books of the present Old and New Testaments, with the exception of the Apocalypse of Saint John. The Laodicean council stated that only the canonical books it listed should be read in church. Its decisions were widely accepted in the Eastern Church. (2) The third Council of Carthage met in North Africa about A.D. 397. This council, attended by Augustine, provided a full list of the canonical books of both the Old and New Testaments. The twenty-seven books of the present-day New Testament were accepted as canonical. The council also held that these books should be read in the church as Divine Scripture to the exclusion of all others. This Council was widely accepted as authoritative in the West.

THE BUBBLE BURSTS As I delved deeper into my study of the history of the New Testament, I saw my previous misconceptions being demolished one by one. I understood now what should have been obvious all along: that the New Testament consisted of twenty-seven separate documents which, while certainly inspired by God nothing could shake me in that conviction-had been written and compiled by human beings. It was also clear that this work had not been accomplished by individuals working in isolation, but by the collective effort of all Christians everywhere-the Body of Christ, the Church. This realization forced me to deal with two more issues that my earlier prejudices had led me to avoid: (1) the propriety and necessity of human involvement in the writing of Scripture; and (2) the authority of the Church.

HUMAN AND DIVINE Deeply committed, like many evangelicals, to belief in the inspiration of Scripture, I had understood the New Testament to be God's Word only, and not man's. I supposed the Apostles were told by God exactly what to write, much as a secretary takes down what is being dictated, without providing any personal contribution. Ultimately, my understanding of the inspiration of Scripture was clarified by the teaching of the Church regarding the Person of Christ. The Incarnate Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, is not only God but also man. Christ is a single Person with two natures-divine and human. To de-emphasize Christ's humanity leads to heresy. The ancient Church taught that the Incarnate Word was fully human-in fact, as human as it is possible to be-and yet without sin. In His humanity, the Incarnate Word was born, grew, and matured into manhood. I came to realize that this view of the Incarnate Word of God, the Logos, Jesus Christ, paralleled the early Christian view of the written Word of God, the Bible. The written Word of God reflects not only the divine thought, but a human contribution as well. The Word of God conveys truth to us as written by men, conveying the thoughts, personalities, and even limitations and weaknesses of the writers-inspired by God, to be sure. This means that the human element in the Bible is not overwhelmed so as to be lost in the ocean of the divine. It became clearer to me that as Christ Himself was born, grew, and matured, so also did the written Word of God, the Bible. It did not come down whole-plop-from heaven, but was of human origin as well as divine. The Apostles did not merely inscribe the Scriptures as would a robot or a zombie, but freely cooperated with the will of God through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

A QUESTION OF AUTHORITY The second issue I had to grapple with was even more difficult for me-the issue of Church authority. It was clear from my study that the Church had, in fact, determined which books composed the Scriptures; but still I wrestled mightily with the thought that the Church had been given this authority. Ultimately, it came down to a single issue. I already believed with all my heart that God spoke authoritatively through His written Word. The written Word of God is concrete and tangible. I can touch the Bible and read it. But for some strange reason, I was reluctant to believe the same things about the Body of Christ, the Church-that she was visible and tangible, located physically on earth in history. The Church to me was essentially "mystical" and intangible, not identifiable with any specific earthly assembly. This view permitted me to see each Christian as being a church unto himself. How convenient this is, especially when doctrinal or personal problems arise! Yet this view did not agree with the reality of what the Church was understood to be in the apostolic era. The New Testament is about real churches, not ethereal ones. Could I now accept the fact that God spoke authoritatively, not only through the Bible, but through His Church as well-the very Church which had produced, protected, and actively preserved the Scriptures I held so dear?

THE CHURCH OF THE NEW TESTAMENT In the view of the earliest Christians, God spoke His Word not only to but through His Body, the Church. It was within His Body, the Church, that the Word was confirmed and established. Without question, the Scriptures were looked upon by early Christians as God's active revelation of Himself to the world. At the same time, the Church was understood as the household of God, "having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord" (Ephesians 2:20, 21). God has His Word, but He also has His Body. The New Testament says: (1) "Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually" (1 Corinthians 12:27; compare Romans 12:5). (2) "He [Christ] is the head of the body, the church" (Colossians 1:18). (3) "And He [the Father] put all things under His [the Son's] feet, and gave Him to be head overall things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all" (Ephesians 1:22, 23). In early times there was no organic separation between Bible and Church, as we so often find today. The Body without the Word is without message, but the Word without the Body is without foundation. As Paul writes, the Body is "the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15). The Church is the Living Body of the Incarnate Lord. The Apostle does not say that the New Testament is the pillar and ground of the truth. The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth because the New Testament was built upon her life in God. In short, she wrote it! She is an integral part of the gospel message, and it is within the Church that the New Testament was written and preserved.

THE WORD OF GOD IN ORAL TRADITION The Apostle Paul exhorts us, "Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle" (2 Thessalonians 2:15). This verse was one that I had not highlighted because it used two phrases I didn't like: "hold the traditions" and "by word [of mouth]." These two phrases conflicted with my understanding of biblical authority. But then I began to understand: the same God who speaks to us through His written Word, the Bible, spoke also through the Apostles of Christ as they taught and preached in person. The Scriptures themselves teach in this passage (and others) that this oral tradition is what we are to keep! Written and oral tradition are not in conflict, but are parts of one whole. This explains why the Fathers teach that he who does not have the Church as his Mother does not have God as his Father. In coming to this realization, I concluded that I had grossly overreacted in rejecting oral Holy Tradition. In my hostility toward Jewish oral tradition, which rejected Christ, I had rejected Christian oral Holy Tradition, which expresses the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church. And I had rejected the idea that this Tradition enables us properly and fully to understand the Bible. Let me illustrate this point with an experience I had recently. I decided to build a shed behind my house. In preparation, I studied a book on carpentry that has "everything" in it. It's full of pictures and diagrams, enough so that "even a kid could follow its instructions." It explains itself, I was told. But, simple as it claimed to be, the more I read it, the more questions I had and the more confused I became. Disgusted at not being able to understand something that seemed so simple, I came to the conclusion that the book needed interpretation. Without help, I just couldn't put it into practice. What I needed was someone with expertise who could explain the manual to me. Fortunately, I had a friend who was able to show me how the project should be completed. He knows because of oral tradition. An experienced carpenter taught him, and he in turn taught me. Written and oral tradition together got the job done.

WHICH CAME FIRST? What confronted me at this point was the bottom line question: Which came first, the Church or the New Testament? I knew that the Incarnate Word of God, Jesus Christ, had called the Apostles, who in turn formed the nucleus of the Christian Church. I knew that the Eternal Word of God therefore preceded the Church and gave birth to the Church. When the Church heard the Incarnate Word of God and committed His Word to writing, she thereby participated with God in giving birth to the written Word, the New Testament. Thus it was the Church which gave birth to and preceded the New Testament. To the question, "Which came first, the Church or the New Testament?" the answer, both biblically and historically, is crystal clear. Someone might protest, "Does it really make any difference which came first? After all, the Bible contains everything that we need for salvation." The Bible is adequate for salvation in the sense that it contains the foundational material needed to establish us on the correct path. On the other hand, it is wrong to consider the Bible as being self-sufficient and self-interpreting. The Bible is meant to be read and understood by the illumination of God's Holy Spirit within the life of the Church. Did not the Lord Himself tell His disciples, just prior to His crucifixion, "When He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come" (John 16:13)? He also said, "I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18). Our Lord did not leave us with only a book to guide us. He left us with His Church. The Holy Spirit within the Church teaches us, and His teaching complements Scripture. How foolish to believe that God's full illumination ceased after the New Testament books were written and did not resume until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century, or-to take this argument to its logical conclusion-until the very moment when 1, myself, started reading the Bible. Either the Holy Spirit was in the Church throughout the centuries following the New Testament period, leading, teaching, and illuminating her in her understanding of the gospel message, or the Church has been left a spiritual orphan, with individual Christians independently interpreting-and often "authoritatively" teaching the same Scripture in radically different ways. Such chaos cannot be the will of God, "for God is not the author of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

A TIME TO DECIDE At this point in my studies, I felt I had to make a decision. If the Church was not just a tangent or a sidelight to the Scripture, but rather an active participant in its development and preservation, then it was time to reconcile my differences with her and abandon my prejudices. Rather than trying to judge the Church according to my modern preconceptions about what the Bible was saying, I needed to humble myself and come into union with the Church that produced the New Testament, and let her guide me into a proper understanding of Holy Scripture. After carefully exploring various church bodies, I finally realized that, contrary to the beliefs of many modern Christians, the Church which produced the Bible is not dead. The Orthodox Church today has direct and clear historical continuity with the Church of the Apostles, and it preserves intact both the Scriptures and the Holy Tradition which enables us to interpret them properly. Once I understood this, I converted to Orthodoxy and began to experience the fullness of Christianity in a way I never had before. Though he may have coined the slogan, the fact is that Luther himself did not practice sola scriptura. If he had, he'd have tossed out the Creeds and spent less time writing commentaries. The phrase came about as a result of the reformers' struggles against the added human traditions of Romanism. Understandably, they wanted to be sure their faith was accurate according to New Testament standards. But to isolate the Scriptures from the Church, to deny 1500 years of history, is something the slogan sola scriptura and the Protestant Reformers-Luther, Calvin, and later Wesley-never intended to do. To those who try to stand dogmatically on sola scriptura, in the process rejecting the Church which not only produced the New Testament, but also, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, identified those books which compose the New Testament, I would say this: Study the history of the early Church and the development of the New Testament canon. Use source documents where possible. (It is amazing how some of the most "conservative" Bible scholars of the evangelical community turn into cynical and rationalistic liberals when discussing early Church history!) Examine for yourself what happened to God's people after the twenty-eighth chapter of the Book of Acts. You will find a list of helpful sources at the end of this booklet. If you examine the data and look with objectivity at what occurred in those early days, I think you will discover what I discovered. The life and work of God's Church did not grind to a halt after the first century and start up again in the sixteenth. If it had, we would not possess the New Testament books which are so dear to every Christian believer. The separation of Church and Bible which is so prevalent in much of today's Christian world is a modern phenomenon. Early Christians made no such artificial distinctions. Once you have examined the data, I would encourage you to find out more about the historic Church which produced the New Testament, preserved it, and selected those books which would be part of its canon. Every Christian owes it to himself or herself to discover the Orthodox Christian Church and to understand its vital role in proclaiming God's Word to our own generation.

Suggested Reading Bruce, F.F., The Canon of Scripture, Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1988.

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1990.

Farmer, William R. & Farkasfalvy, Denis, The Formation of the New Testament Canon: An Ecumenical Approach, New York: Paulist Press, 1983.

Gamble, Harry Y., The New Testament Canon: Its Making and Meaning, Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1985.

Kesich, Veselin, The Gospel Image of Christ, Crestwood, New York: St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1992.

Metzger, Bruce Manning, The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance, New York: Oxford University Press, 1987.

Meyendorff, John, Living Tradition, Crestwood, New York: St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1978. Histories of Christianity generally give some information on the formation of the Canon, although they are not likely to discuss its relevance to the authority and interpretation of Scripture.

► Overall on basis of belief; Pt. 1

“But it is defended as if it were infallible, while as there is no infallible list of what all church fathers consist of, or of all infallible pronouncements, not everything is clear as to what is infallible.”

Actually, there is a list.

“BK, you said there was an infallible list, but where is it? One on who all the CFs consist of is also needed. And it is not unanimity that makes CFs infallible, but Rome’s decree that they were, and its definition of unanimous consent.”

As I said there is a list. It will take time for me to put it together for you. :) I don’t have it ready at the go right now, but I will in a bit.

Take some time? Are are you going to get the pope to convene an ecumenical council and provide one? Either an infallible list of all infallible teachings, as well as a complete list of all the CFs exists, to or it does not. Either provide it or admit that there is no infallible list of all infallible teachings (or CFs), and that in response to that assertion by me that there is none then you were trying to provide a non-infallible list, which only confirms my statement that there is none

“All things considered, the attempts to extend the meaning of “brothers” in this pericope.”

Again, snipping it here. The word is adelphoi,... The burden is on proving the close relationship, and lacking sufficient evidence, all we can conclude is that there is some family relationship but not the distance between them and Christ.

The burden is more on proving it is not a close relationship in the context of verses at issue. And again, you are relying on what one word can mean, which itself is not the issue, but the context.

"And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house." (Matthew 13:56-57)

Here you have Jesus brothers and sisters along with his own literal mother being referred to, while speaking in His own literal country in the narrow sense, that of Nazareth, and referring to His own house[oikia, rarely used in larger sense]. All these can be used in the larger or the spiritual sense, none of which is disallowed, but the most natural reading is that of His own family and household. Which is what i argued, not that it must be. But any conclusion based upon objective exegesis is disallowed if it does not support Rome by Catholics who are committed to defending truth based on Roman decree.

“I can provide other statements from Catholic sources”

And I can cite what the Pope writes on the P-V of Mary too.

Which means nothing when you are attempt to show warrant for submission to the pope, and in which case reasons are not needed.

“what makes this assured truth for the Roman Catholic is that Rome has decreed it to be so, and under that premise your appeal to other sources need not prove it, nor does it”

What one Catholic writes is not ‘Rome’s decree’. Far from it.

That is my point, which you are missing, that assurance of truth for the Roman Catholic rests upon what the assuredly infallible magisterium (AIM) says, even though that is quite limited.

If your approach is simply to dig up a Catholic author who disagrees with what the Church teaches, you’re in for some disappointment. As I said previously, the magisterium does not work that way.

You are misinterpreting me. My point is that your authority is the AIM of Rome, even though you argue in support of warrant for such an entity which claims to be the OTC in unity. And in response, i may invoke approved Catholic works as having more weight than you, and writings from Catholics based upon their merits, and as not being biased against Rome.

However, these are “only” arguments, and if assurance rested upon the evidence for such then you would not need the assuredly infallible magisterium (AIM) to provide real assurance of certitude, which is an aspect of the Catholic argument for the AIM of Rome and against private interpretation..In which argumentation they seek for us to make a fallible decision to trust in an assured infallible authority, which has infallibly defined itself as so being. Therefore such approved statements as this are given...,

Snipping the non-sequitor “Catholics don’t reason because they disagree with me”.

“You are noncomprehending what the writer and i am saying,”

No, I fully understand what he is saying. He is arguing that because of what the Church teaches we must discard reason. This is a bad argument because I can just as easily argue that in order to maintain church teachings requires the application of reason, ergo, his argument fails.

That you fully understand him is contrary to the larger context, which reference and link provides, as he is not referring to reason in defending the faith, or totally negating any need for reason, but reasons that if Rome states something as Truth then you need not find sanction for it by such reason as you used in coming to submit to Rome, but only need to give assent. That he obviously does not exclude the use of reason in defending the faith is seen by the author himself engaging in such, though this was not seen as the work of laymen.

He does not provide a means to assess how reason may be employed. Nor does he bother, because it is simply his opinion and without merit. I could dismiss what everyone writes here by saying they ‘lack reason’, but I suspect you would find it unsatisfying.

His scope is limited, as evidently your reading is, as he does sanction reason being employed as regards converting to Rome, and his freedom from reason remarks as are regards finding merit for what Rome authoritatively teaches, and consistently seeking after truth rather than being convinced that he holds it. “The message of the Church is: these are God's words. As for what these words stand for, you are not to trust her, but Him. The foundation of divine belief is one thing; the motives of credibility are another.” (cp. XVIII)

His position that a Catholic need not use reason to find warrant for what has Rome authoritatively teaches has evident merit, as you can indeed leave such reason at the door as regards seeking the basis for your belief in such things as the Assumption, for certitude rests upon papal decree that it is so.

“that you need not to in such a case as this”

In order to understand the teachings of the Church, and to effectively apologize for them, one must apply one’s sense of reason.

Again you are ignoring context and burning a straw man. This is about negating the need of fallible human reason to determine doctrinal truth rather than relying on Rome to do so. The fact is that if Rome has spoken, as it has regards the Assumption, the matter is settled for the Roman Catholic, and he need not engage in finding reasons for the warrant for such. Thus all the reasons you provide for the assumption are superfluous as regards whether you will believe them or not, as Rome's assured infallibility is your real basis for assent of faith to them, which is my argument, otherwise you doubt that Rome really is infallible when she teaches as such. However, whether she has indeed taught something infallibly can be a matter of differing interpretation.

“as you are to simply trust that the AIM of Rome is right”

I assure you that it requires reason in order to comprehend what those teachings are. :)

Indeed, as well as what is authoritative teaching, but which was not the aspect as issue.

“implicit trust is what cults require”

I am not bound to Rome through anything but my free will. I am free to investigate into the contents of Sacred Scipture and the treatises of the magisterium without constraint.

You are avoiding the obvious. Of course you are not a robot and do have free will, as to Mormons, etc., but you are indeed bound to give assent to Rome if you will consider yourself a faithful Roman Catholic. And this itself is not even the problem, as all membership has conditions, but my statement was in regards to required implicit assent of faith to an office of men based upon the premise of assured infallibility.

“magisterium which is effectively held as supreme over Scripture”

Nonsense, for the magisterium cannot promulgate teachings contrary to scripture.

Refuted before. As expressed before, your reasoning is superficial, for as said, Rome can claim she has warrant from Scripture, or at least is not contradicting it, but that is not the basis for assurance that she has spoken infallibly. But this is based upon the premise of her formulaic infallibility, that her sacred magisterium is so when speaking universally on faith and morals, and under which decrees that she is, while the charism of infallibility is held as being restricted to the actual decree, and does not necessarily extend to the reasons and arguments given for it.

If the magisterium were sincerely supreme, then they could simply discard books at will, like Luther did. By using Luther’s canon you are effectively ceding magesterial supremacy to one man.

Once again, we do not follow Luther's canon, which was more restricted, nor was he unique in his exclusions, but we commonly hold to an ancient 39 book Hebrew canon and 27 book New Testament canon, which was established after the manner that writings became established as being Scripture before there was a church in Rome, whose infallible, indisputable canon was not given until the year Luther died. And this has been dealt with before rather extensively with much documentation i should have to repeat.

As regards the magisterium being sincerely supreme, this is the Catholic polemic, that as the Scriptures came through Rome, and she has perpetual continuity thru formal decent, and infallibly defines their meaning, than what she says has supreme authority, including her claim that she does not conflict with Scripture. But which premise would have required the New Testament believers to have submitted to the instruments and stewards of the then-existing Scriptures, and to those who sat in the seat of Moses as being infallible, rather than the spiritual authority of these upstart followers of the Nazarene being established in dissent from them, in conformity to Scriptural and its means of attestation, to the glory of God.

“ou are to simply trust that the AIM of Rome is right, ..rather than relying upon searching the Scriptures for its substantiation”

Again, I assure you that Catholics understand the teaching of the Church as compatible to, not in conflict with Sacred Scripture. This requires investigations and understanding into Scripture.

Refuted before. Again, i assure you that the assurance that the teaching of the Church is compatible to, and not in conflict with Sacred Scripture is based upon the premise that what she decrees to be Truth is Truth, as per the aforementioned manner by which she defined herself to be True. And thus the real goal of Roman Catholic apologists is to bring souls to submit to the AIM of Rome as effectively supreme. In contrast, if Catholic faith depends upon the weight of Scriptural warrant then it makes Catholics to be as Protestants.

“yet in order to do so you must disallow supernaturally established Scripture from providing assurance of truth”

As I already cited earlier, the Catholic church affirms the supernatural origin and inspiration of Sacred Scripture. Ergo, this claim has no merit. There is no conflict between what the Church believes and what you have stated here.

Ergo, you are not following the argument and what i said earlier, which is not whether Rome affirms the supernatural origin and inspiration of Sacred Scripture, but that assurance of truth is based upon the weight of Scriptural warrant, in text and attestation, not because the “sacred magisterium” has defined herself as infallible and decreed something that it fits her scope and subject-based criteria. She may claim it is Scriptural, but your assent of faith to infallible decrees is not based upon whether you find it to be so, if you are a faithful Catholic. As you concur that “the voice of the Pope is the voice of God” (in infallible decrees) then this should not be contended.

“Absolute, immediate, and unfaltering submission to the teaching of God's Church on matters of faith and morals-----this is what all must give..”

“All that we do [as must be patent enough now] is to submit our judgment and conform our beliefs to the authority Almighty God has set up on earth to teach us; this, and nothing else.” (ibid, Graham)

“due to the fallible nature of man”

If man’s falliable nature were truly in play here, then you cannot assert that scripture written by men is free of error. You must allow that those who wrote scripture did so under the power of the holy spirit, preventing them from error.

This, also, is what the Catholic church teaches.

Again, the issue is not that the writers of Scripture were infallible in what they penned (which sometimes was personal correspondence), but the claim of the sacred magisterium to formulaic infallibility. That men could and can speak infallible truth is not the issue, as even Caiaphas did, but no office is promised perpetual infallibility whenever they speak on faith and morals to all the church. Support for that is extrapolated to of texts, but assurance is based on Rome declaring it is true.

The Scriptures, which, like true men of God, became established as Divine due to their qualities and attestation, are alone as the only transcendent material authority which are assuredly infallible as being God-breathed, and can be historically verifiable, unlike oral tradition.

And Scripturally we see writings being established as Scripture, and Truth given and preserved without a perpetual assuredly infallible magisterium, as God often raised up men from outside the formal office to correct it. But whom, like Rome, they often persecuted and killed, but by which a remnant of believers were preserved. Those who sat in the seat of Moses had a real problem with the Lord Jesus and men like John the Baptist, because of their erroneous premise of perpetual authority.

By the Scriptures we know the first ecumenical early church council provided infallible truth, (Acts 15) but which was not based upon the novel premise of perpetual assured infallibility of office, which the Pharisees had basically presumed, but the decision and doctrine was based upon Scripture and its manifestation of Truth.

“require us to submit to infallible Rome”

You have already submitted yourselves to infalliable Rome, for you bind yourselves to the book she has written.

Refuted before. By which logic the early church was in submission to the Jews who were the unique instruments of written Divine revelation, and its leadership, and this needed to submit to them. But what the Christian faith teaches is that an entity being the instruments and stewards of Holy Writ does not confer perpetual assured infallibility, nor does affirming some of what they taught constitute submission to them.

“But assured formulaic infallibility of office is not how believers found assurance in Scripture”

Which is not what the Church teaches about infalliability, nor does the Church require it to understand Sacred Scripture. For if we had to be infalliable to understand it, none of us could.

Rome clearly teaches formulaic infallibility of office, as described above. And while your argument is that one must infallibly interpretation Scripture in order to have assurance from that infallible authority, Rome does not teach that her members infallibly interpreted her infallible authority.

“by manifestation of the truth in the light of what has been established as truth by supernatural qualities, effects, attestation and conflation, as has been heretofore described.”

Again, which is what the Church teaches as confirmed by the Catechism.

Good to see you affirm how one found assurance in Scripture.

The intolerance of the Church toward error, the natural position of one who is the custodian of truth, her only reasonable attitude makes her forbid her children to read or to listen to heretical controversy”

Not true.

“It was”

In every age you find Saints who have written extensive commentaries of heresy. They could not have compiled their understanding of heresy without serious study. Ergo, the Church actually requires study of heresy in order that it might properly be refuted.

Ergo, you ignore the class which are the subject of such in the substantiation given by me, “any lay person.”

“and even the Bible was restricted”

Evidence would be nice.

What do you mean “evidence would be nice” in response to “even the Bible was restricted.” You did this before, resulting in my posting great lengths to any already long post, and evidence that you do not go linked material. Perhaps you do not recognize hot linked words, but when you see an underlined word (usually blue) that makes your cursor turn into a hand, then if you click on it with your mouse it will take you to another page.

Are you saying that I cannot go and get a bible and read it anytime I wish? You are gravely mistaken if you believe that is the case. We are encouraged to reflect upon scripture whenever possible.

Are you saying that my qualifying word “was” means it is still is?

And this was not a fringe position:

“Do not converse with heretics even for the sake of defending the faith, for fear lest their words instil their poison in your mind.” (Bl. Isaias Boner of Krakow, Polish, Augustinian priest, theologian, professor of Scripture, d. 1471)

“...the Church forbids the faithful to communicate with those unbelievers who have forsaken the faith they once received, either by corrupting the faith, as heretics, or by entirely renouncing the faith, as apostates, because the Church pronounces sentence of excommunication on both.” St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Article 9, “Whether it is lawful to communicate with unbelievers?”; http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3010.htm

“We furthermore forbid any lay person to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic Faith.”

Then you have little understanding of my office. :)

And so just what is that mystery office? And will you enable us to verify your claim, since it would be necessary to justify you if this were still forbidden?

“That a layman must not publicly make a speech or teach, thus investing himself with the dignity of a teacher, but, instead, must submit to the ordinance handed down by the Lord, and to open his ear wide to them who have received the grace of teaching ability, and to be taught by them the divine facts thoroughly.”

Again, you have little understanding of my office.

No doubt, since you offer no substantiation that you are an official teacher, yet they needed permission to engage in debates.

“His Church gives him all there is to be had; all else is counterfeit...he must refuse to be liberal in the sense of reading all sorts of Protestant controversial literature.”

Given my origins, I cannot see how such would apply to me.

Presuming you interpret him correctly as a convert of 7 years, then you issue is with approved teaching, whilst you have no stamps.

And you will attain understanding when you finally realize that this is something that isn’t controversial. :) I may not be a Sungenis, but we are all, happily, peons.

This again ignores context, as the statement was, “If you disagree, then considering you are simply ‘another peon with an opinion’ in stature in Rome.”“ To reckon oneself as a peon is right, but Rome more manifestly is about a hierarchy, and what you seem to infer of yourself you fail to substantiate.

“and the practical failure of the magisterium to provide a wide scope of perspicuous, consistent, approved teaching to the common Catholic.”

So you would hope. But you do not understand the Magisterium and how it works. Perhaps someday you shall.

Your response only testifies to my statement. If you want an understanding of how the Magisterium practically works, ask a random group of Catholics to define this, and how many infallible teachings there are, among others things, and you will get different answers. Not that there is not a basically right explanation to the first, but without getting into details (as here: http://catholicism.org/the-three-levels-of-magisterial-teaching.html), outside the basics are found various explanations as to the details, and it requires interpretation as to what statements fits where, as no one can point you an infallible list of all infallible statements.

And relative little is provided infallibly, most especially on Bible texts. Much of the interpretive explaining of what fits where and the meaning of Rome's prolixity of pronouncements is effectively left to lay apologists on the practical level. And they themselves testify to the problems.

Robert Sungenis recently stated Rome's scholars are worse than Protestant liberals. Jimmy Akin recently chastised the interpretation of his priest saying, "This isn't exegetical rocket science." Steve Ray had some similar problems with a priest and concludes the church is "Always reforming, always in need of reform." Mark Shea accuses Robert Sungenis of lying. Sungenis says Scott Hahn misunderstands of the whole issue of justification. Over on the Catholic Answers forum, they recently had a heated discussion as to whether Scott Hahn teaches "prima scriptura." Tim Staples says he went to a mass in which the priest led the church in "the wave." Jimmy Akin says you can pray to whoever you want to, even if they aren't saints. Art Sippo says Mary should be Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of all Graces. Patrick Madrid disagreed with him. Karl Keating states, "Many Catholics are confused because some priests tell them contracepting is immoral, while others tell them the practice is morally neutral; some priests speak as though Mary had only one child, while others imply that she was the mother of the 'brethren of the Lord', some priests correctly explain the meaning of the Real Presence, while others refer to the Eucharist as only a symbol. Priests are authority figures, and lay people expect them to know and teach the faith accurately- not a safe assumption nowadays." Jim Burnham stated on Catholic Answers that Seventy percent of Roman Catholics do not understand the Eucharist.
I could go on and on. I didn't even mention any of my "We Have Apostolic Tradition"- The Unofficial Catholic Apologist Commentary " posts. In those posts, you can see that Catholic apologists disagree with each other when they interpret the Bible. Then there are the big issues, like evolution. If you want to see diversity of opinion, simply try and nail down a Catholic apologist or a Catholic theologian on it. You would think Catholic theologians could at least be unified on Luther and the Reformation. Some say Luther was sent by Satan, others think he wasn't such a bad guy.

Some think the anathemas of Trent apply to Protestants today and others do not. Some want to canon PJ2, while others denigrate his legacy, while one can engage in quite serious deviation (from rejecting Vatican Two to its liberal counterpart) and not see any real discipline, or one can see such, yet apparently may be received back with no required repentance.

Torture can be explicitly sanctioned by one pope and theologians for theological reasons, only to have another forbid it unequivocally, while interpretations of ecclesiam nulla salus statements still vary.

Rome assures its members that “the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur are a declaration that a book or pamphlet is considered to be free from doctrinal or moral error,” even in her own American Bible, a safeguard which flows from the ‘Index of Prohibited Books,’ and have Catholics require all evidence used by use to have them, and then by told by others that they are basically meaningless, and what really is authoritative teaching varies.

“He is as sure of a truth when declared by the Catholic Church as he would be if he saw Jesus Christ standing before him and heard Him declaring it with His Own Divine lips.”

Not sure what your point is here? This is supposed to be controversial?

“Examine the context, which was that of assurance of doctrine being based upon the premise of perpetual assured formulaic infallibility”

Perhaps in your mind.

Perhaps in my mind? Such responses are hardly worth replying to. If submission to infallible decrees is not based on the premise that the sacred magisterium is infallible when speaking universally on faith and morals, then you have not the mind of a Roman Catholic.

“Rome may claim such, but assurance of her decrees does not rest upon it, and Rome can autocratically define evidence as supporting her.”

Again, in your mind only. If this were so, why would we see the vast degree of freedom which we possess to debate issues not strictly doctrinal?

Because what you chose to refer to, contrary to the context, is not infallible “decrees,” but things not strictly doctrinal. But the premise of assured infallibility is what is behind Rome's claim to supremacy.

People believe that Catholicism is a straightjacket, but that is incorrect. Yes, the church teachings are explicit, but beyond those, one has the freedom of investigation and application.

Rather, Roman Catholics often infer a wide scope of doctrinal unity, while i often point out how many things Roman Catholics can and do disagree on, which is more than most realize, because most are passive to any great degree about doctrine. But the assured infallibility premise is the main issue.

“As said one of your chief apologist quote before said on the issue at hand,”

You should already have a sense of which school I follow, and it is not Mr. Keating’s. I believe that said argument is insufficient to convince evangelicals. True as it is, there are other approaches.

Unlike you as a mystery professor, he evidences some credentials as an apologist for Rome. But unlike us, you both argue for a particular church, yet effectively require us to spend much effort determining which flavor of Roman Catholicism the poster represents, both claiming to represent Rome accurately and rejecting the other Catholics when they oppose you. therefore, unlike your practice, i work to substantiate things from approved material or Catholic of some standing, including popes, which shows Rome is subject to various interpretations. Excluding certain core doctrines, which we also commonly hold to.

You would do better to cite the Pope, but I know why you don’t. :) Interesting discussion, and yes I will try to get that list to you tomorrow. It is late and I have typed a great many words to the five of you today.

Oh you do? From a man who provides little to no substantiation himself? But contrary to your (forbidden) mind reading, your assertion just evidences again that you do not look at linked material, and are ignorant of my posting history, while what a pope says is no more infallible than you are unless he is speaking according to the criteria for that. Unless you consider all that a papal encyclical or Bull contains is.

If you want more from popes on the changeability of Rome i will look forward to providing such.

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