Thief on the Cross - Heaven Bound or Purgatory Bound

Bible | 2011 | BibleTruth

[bibletruth]

Was the thief in Luke 23 heaven (paradise) bound or purgatory bound?

Luke 23:41: And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. Luke 23:42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Luke 23:43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

[John Leland 1789]

Heaven and Paradise are not synonymous, and Pergatory does not exist.

[D-fendr]

Thanks, RC. I think you must be referring to johngrace's post citing scripturecatholic.com.

The cite concerns baptism on behalf of the dead not baptism of the dead. I'm not familiar with the former, but baptism of the dead definitely is not Catholic practice (one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism). So, I'm not seeing disagreement on this point or on the question of whether those is Purgatory are bound for Heaven.

thanks again..

[D-fendr]

Sorry. Should be:

I’m not seeing disagreement on this point or on the question of whether those IN Purgatory are bound for Heaven.

[RegulatorCountry]

the Bible says you need baptism. I will take the literal words over your interpretation

The subject of the thread refutes your contention, that one literally needs baptism in order to receive forgiveness of sins and salvation, verga. Believe and be baptized, faith comes first, that is the message consistently throughout.

But, the good thief on the cross was not baptized. Where is he? That is the original question that started off the discussion.

Since he wasn't baptized, he must be where? Hell? That is in direct opposition to scripture. So, what you're saying cannot be entirely true, regardless of one's interpretation, mine, yours or anyone else's.

[Salvation]

The Three Crosses: The Good Thief or the Cross Accepted

[RegulatorCountry]

Baptism of the dead by proxy is what is being discussed in that passage, sorry for any confusion. The practice implies that the salvation of the dead can be affected by the actions of the living, ie: that there is a second chance, and so citing that passage in support of purgatory implies the same, that the disposition of those presumably held in that state or place is not certain.

[Salvation]

Borrowed fro annalex

Bible reference to a place called "purgatory".

This is a childish argument. The Bible also doesn't mention the Trinity, or "Bible alone", or communion by grape juice and matzot, and when it does mention "faith alone", the Protestant big-kahuna-doo, it refutes it.

The idea that man who is judged saved might nevertheless be tested for impurities and then purified of them, is expressed in 1 Cor 3:7-15, clearly. It is in fact one of those passages where the Protestant myth-making really hits the fan. There is no passage that invited people to heaven dirty as they are.

The good thief on the cross died a saint. He sure did not die to lead us to impurity. St. Dismas, the Holy Criminal, pray for us sinners and forgive our stupidity.

Bible reference to a place called "purgatory".

This is a childish argument. The Bible also doesn't mention the Trinity, or "Bible alone", or communion by grape juice and matzot, and when it does mention "faith alone", the Protestant big-kahuna-doo, it refutes it.

The idea that man who is judged saved might nevertheless be tested for impurities and then purified of them, is expressed in 1 Cor 3:7-15, clearly. It is in fact one of those passages where the Protestant myth-making really hits the fan. There is no passage that invited people to heaven dirty as they are.

The good thief on the cross died a saint. He sure did not die to lead us to impurity. St. Dismas, the Holy Criminal, pray for us sinners and forgive our stupidity.

[D-fendr]

Thanks RC. I don’t see baptism by proxy in this passage. It seems to be mostly making the point that the dead here are neither in Heaven nor Hell, so there must be somewhere else.

If we infer a second baptism or baptism OF the dead, this is not Catholic practice. If we believe it implies that those in Purgatory are not of the elect bound for heaven, this is incorrect Catholic teaching:

“The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.”

[RegulatorCountry]

It’s making the point that baptism of the dead is in vain and the result of false teaching, just as believing that the dead will not be resurrected is false teaching. Both are being rebuked by Paul as being nothing he ever taught or preached, to the church at Corinth or any other.

You do bring up an interesting point, though. So, under the beliefs of your church, people die, some die unforgiven and go to punishment and Hell, a small number of others are deemed righteous and in no need of refinement and go straight to heaven, but everyone else goes to purgatory, to be refined by fire for varying lengths of time depending upon the severity of their sins and transgressions while alive. Is this a fair assessment?

Then, upon resurrection, these people, those not condemned to Hell at least, are then put back into fleshly bodies at the resurrection after being in Heaven? And, these bodies are not like unto the body of Jesus Christ after resurrection, glorified, they are something less than that?

Pardon if there are errors in the above and pardon the casual, laymans language, but it’s the impression I’ve gained of Catholic belief over the course of years of reading, both here and elsewhere.

[gghd]

In regards to your comment: ‘Some of your church fellows would appear to be in disagreement...’ Only certain people have the authority to officially speak on behalf of authentic Catholic teachings. I recommend you check The Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church for authentic teachings. The Catechism is on the Internet.

I'm a lay-Catholic & I have authority to only convey Church teachings & pray I am doing it faithfully. There is One, Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church.> & The Church has one authentic teaching & one Truth. The Catechism explains the truth & it should not be confused with speculative-theology.

[D-fendr]

There is a particular and final judgement which I think you're describing. I also think your description of Purgatory is correct, to be more exact, here's a fuller quote from the Catechism:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

As I mentioned earlier, the scripture I've seen most often referred to concerning Purgatory is St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15:

"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

Thanks for your courteous reply.

[RegulatorCountry]

If one lacks the authority to represent authentic teachings of your church, then why would one do so at all? This goes for speaking in support just as surely as it does for speaking in condemnation of other beliefs.

If citing the catechism provides an answer to the question at hand, please cite it. Referring every question to Teh Goggle is not something that most find particularly persuasive.

[verga]

Pergatory does not exist.

Maybe maybe not, but Purgatory does

[verga]

The subject of the thread refutes your contention, that one literally needs baptism in order to receive forgiveness of sins and salvation, verga. Believe and be baptized, faith comes first, that is the message consistently throughout.

But, the good thief on the cross was not baptized. Where is he? That is the original question that started off the discussion.

Since he wasn't baptized, he must be where? Hell? That is in direct opposition to scripture. So, what you're saying cannot be entirely true, regardless of one's interpretation, mine, yours or anyone else's.

Actually The Church recognizes that the thief was indeed baptized CCC 1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

I am not saying this to be mean or nasty in any way, your knowledge of the Catholic Church is severely lacking. You are fighting against a straw man that simply does not exist. I seriously again challenge you to study the Teachings of the Church fathers to find out what has been taught throughout the centuries. This is Protestant cite that has collected the works of the Fathers. They are as unbiased a source as you will find http://www.ccel.org/

I will pray that the Holy Spirit reveals Himself to you and draws you to the fullness of faith. Merry Christmas to you FRiend and to your family as well.

[gghd]

Lay-catholics are obligated to -convey- Church teachings. Certain people only have Church authority to absolutely teach -true- Church Doctrine.

As an example, I can explain the laws of the United States to someone BUT I'm not a Judge, or a President or an Ambassador. I can argue about the ‘meaning’ of the Constitution. When the Supreme Court speaks, it's backed up by the military might of the United States.

I refer you to the Catholic Catechism & the Internet because you are arguing about things people have been arguing about for 2,000 years.

To repeat what I started with in this thread: Jesus Christ did NOT walk the Holy Lands handing out Bibles saying, ‘Here read this Bible & argue about what it means.’

Jesus Christ built His Church & out of The Church came the Bible. I recommend you look for that Church established by Jesus Christ. We know Jesus built a Church as the Bible tells us so. We also know the Gates of Hell will NOT prevail against The Church built by Jesus Christ.> That Church (we find in the Bible) must still be around today.

From the introduction to the Catechism: ‘The principal task entrusted to the Council by Pope John XXIII was to guard and resent better the precious deposit of Christian doctrine in order to make it more accessible to the Christian faithful and to all people of good will.’ You can trust the Catechism for doctrine while we lay-catholics may be confusing to you.

[TPOOH]

You have a lot of anger (and delusions) grasshopper, perhaps you should try the love of Christ. It’s a special kind of love called VeAhavta. Loving your brother as you love your God-Elohim. Merry Christmas

[gghd]

A second reply in case all you needed was a teaching from the Catechism to change your Faith & accept the existence of Purgatory as taught by Holy Mother our Church.

The Catechism: III The Final Purification, or Purgatory
1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned....

It’s not possible to argue someone into Heaven. Faith comes from God & it is God that transforms the human-heart. The Gates of Heaven are open for ALL people that: ‘Love God above all things & love their neighbors as themselves.’ To deny God’s Grace has to be done wilfully & with full knowledge.

[verga]

You have a lot of anger (and delusions) grasshopper, perhaps you should try the love of Christ. It’s a special kind of love called VeAhavta. Loving your brother as you love your God-Elohim. Merry Christmas

I suggest that you do some reseach about Foxes book of lies.

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2011/02/refutation-of-historical-inaccuracies.html

I am sorry if the truth offends you, and I am sorry if your blinders refuse to see the truth of the Catholic Church. I pray that the Holy Spirit draws you into the fullness of faith through the Catholic Church.

[Delta 21]

I think the whole idea of purgatory itself leaves Jesus hanging on the cross.

Granted, I have an incomplete understanding of the timelessness of Jehovah, but it tells me that purgatory makes absolutely no sense.

[Delta 21]

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified,

Jesus did this for me.

Because God loves me that much.

Welcome to the New Covenant.