Posted on 12/10/2011 2:11:27 PM PST by NYer
Lutheranism is dead, or at least soon will be and it wants to take the Catholic Church with it.
Herbert W. Chilstrom is former presiding bishop of Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. Chilstrom has written an open letter to the Bishops of Minnesota asking them to accept gay 'marriage' becuase gays are like blacks or something.
May I share a word with all of you who now lead the Roman Catholic community of faith in Minnesota?
First, I would go to the wall to defend your right to work for the adoption of the so-called marriage protection amendment. Having said that, I must tell you that I believe you are making a significant mistake.
Over my 35 years as an active and retired bishop I have come to know hundreds of gay and lesbian persons. I have yet to meet even one who is opposed to the marriage of one man and one woman. After all, they are the daughters and sons of such unions.
What they cannot understand is why church leaders would oppose their fundamental desire and right to be in partnership with someone they love and respect who happens to be of the same gender and sexual orientation. They don't understand why they should not enjoy all the rights and privileges their straight counterparts take for granted.
More than a half century ago Father Francis Gilligan spoke out for equality for African American citizens of Minnesota. Though many argued on the basis of the Bible that these neighbors were inferior to others, Gilligan fought tirelessly for justice for these brothers and sisters.
In our generation homosexual persons are subject to the same discrimination. Their detractors often use the Bible and tradition as weapons of choice.
What strikes me about this letter is how utterly juvenile it is in its thinking and how insulting it is to the Catholic position.
Chilstrom challenges the Bishops to "Let me put out a challenge to each of you brothers. Invite 15 gay and lesbian persons from your respective areas, one at a time, to spend two hours with you."
In Chilstrom's mind, the problem is that we don't know and therefore don't like gay people. If we just got to know them, then all these problems would go away. How utterly juvenile. We know them, we love them, that is why we can never support this behavior becuase it destroys them body and soul.
It is no wonder that Lutheranism is dying a milquetoast death.
“Christianity is not democracy. We don’t get to twist words around and ignore others in order to create theology that never was there and is opposed to what God’s Word actually says.”
And Rome looks on. :)
Sir, I agree wholeheartedly. The way the Lutheran church is designed is the source of this problem.
When these issues come up... I always wonder what Luther would think. What would he say and would his authority settle the matter for these ELCA Lutherans?
I’m an under-educated lapsed and relapsed cradle and cultural Catholic. The old German guy with the funny hat who appears at the window calls marriage a Sacrament, and like the cooking time for spaghetti it has to be just so: al dente (Man, woman, open to life, faithful, loving and a real pain in the butt when the dog in me wishes to wander).
I’d have lots of complaints, but I have to obey. ORTHODOXY. Obedience.
For me it’s simple... But I wonder about these ELCA Lutherans.
I imagine the poor old guy who started Lutheranism coming out with either a juicy German word three kilometers long... or a real short one ending in “eck”...
Why do these ELCA Lutherans call themselves Lutherans if what they now demand of their religion would’ve surely caused poor old Luther a conniption?
Why do they bother? Why cling to Christianity if they can’t obey even the simplest precepts?
John Calvin was not a Calvinist!
Martin Luther was not a Luthern!
SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT!
“......they were first called Christians in Antioch” (Acts 11:26)
“Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian....” (Acts 26:28)
“Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed: but let him glorify God on this behalf.” (1 Peter 4:16)
That’s what I was going to say. There are Lutherans who still believe that the Bible is God’s Word and that the One who created us knows more about how we work than we do ourselves. There are even people within the ELCA who believe that; they just can’t get their leadership to give up on second-guessing Scripture.
I would give a word of caution to both the ELCA and the Catholic Church: if anybody preaches a Gospel other than the one preached by the Apostles - those who were with Jesus and received the approval of those who were with Jesus - then they are putting man’s understanding above God’s Word. The ELCA would say that men who are “enlightened” can reason their way around what Scripture says; the Catholic Church might say that men who are successors of Peter can. But it’s the same thing; one just counts on the academic credentials of the preacher and the other on the lineage.
Of course, there are things that have to be interpreted. I understand that. And the questions aren’t always easy or clear. But the goal always has to be to understand what God is saying through the Scriptures - not what we wish he would have said, or what we would have said if we were God (which, if we were to live by it, would be idolatry).
Ruth and Naomi took care of each other. There is no command against taking care of each other. But homosexual sex is forbidden in both the Old and New Testaments. If legal marriage was about simply taking care of each other - if that was the vested government interest in marriage - then mothers and fathers would be able to marry sons and daughters, sisters marry sisters, etc because they are committed to take care of them, live together, etc. But this ELCA pastor is not talking about gay and lesbian people being able to be roommates, take care of each other, or anything like that. He’s specifically talking about the ability to have the government recognize the couple as having a sexual, domestic relationship.
His argument is that if homosexuals desire it, it must be good. Anybody who knows the genuine Lutheran (Book of Concord) teachings on sin (especially original sin) would recognize that this is not Lutheranism at all. It is moral relativism. The harshest condemnation of Israel in the Old Testament was when it was stated that “Everyone did what was right in their own eyes.” And the New Testament has tons of places where it talks about the desires of the flesh and how we are not to satisfy those desires but are to be living sacrifices who have died and risen with Christ. Paul addresses some by saying that some of them were homosexual offenders but have been washed and redeemed from that futile way of life. Just like those who were adulterers or gossips have been redeemed from that when they “put on Christ”.
There are whole swaths of Lutheran doctrine that are being butchered by this so-called “Lutheran”.
“ELCA deserves the attack. And I am Lutheran (not ELCA). We have been trying for decades to get them (their leadership) to drop their unorthodox views and come back to orthodoxy. Letters, meetings, discussions. It has gone nowhere.
“The gentle touch has not worked for twenty years. They have become more adamant and stubborn and hard-hearted. They are losing congregations to other denominations.”
It’s wise to leave those false churches. As Christ said:
“And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!”
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+6:11&version=NKJV
That verse shows that Jesus was not the meek and mild, passive hippy type that the left, Hollyweird and popular media like to extol.
I’ve spent hundreds of hours with gay males. That’s one of many reasons I’m steadfastly opposed to gay marriage. It makes no sense, demeans marriage and child-rearing, and is a failure from the word “go.”
That is a difficult question. I really feel for you. Keep in mind that we never give up on people. Even when we have to part ways with them we still love them and pray for them but recognize that only God can bring a person to faith. And He has tools that we don’t have. Sometimes real life knocks people in the head. Or bright lights from Heaven.
More from the ELCA.
Don't confuse the ELCA with Lutheranism. There's little resemblance.
Hot on the heels of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America’s decision to allow the appointment of non-celibate gays to the clergy, another prominent Christian denomination has decided this week to allow practicing drunkards in the pulpit.
Meeting in Las Vegas, leaders of the Evangelical Lukewarm Christians in Apostasy (ELCA-Not the Lutherans) voted in favor of giving their local congregations the authority to choose ministers or lay leaders who may be in “lifelong, monogamous relationships with alcohol.”
Said the denomination’s president, Ben Halifax, “Since the Lutheran ELCA has courageously decided to ignore the condemnation of homosexuals in 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, we figured it was time for our own denomination to ignore the verses’ reference to drunkards and immediately loosen our outdated and unloving restrictions on boozehounds.”
A motion to also include the acceptance of clerical fornicators, adulterers, idolators, thieves, revilers, and swindlers was tabled until next year’s meeting. . . .
Of course this bishop also ignores Lev. 18.22.
The founder of his church broke with the Catholic Church because he believed that the Catholic Church was teaching things which were not in the Bible. According to this bishop, you're not supposed to believe things even if they are in the Bible.
Goes without saying, IMO.
LOL. Sacred Sandwich rocks. I remember that one.
I like the “Pastor and Drunkard Glen Morehouse with Life Partner Johnnie Walker” quip. What if the pastor/drunkard wants to dump Johnnie Walker for Jack Daniels?
No not just another attack on protestants
just another attack on protestants and all schismatics and sects that embrace sodomy, morning after pills, abortion, and the everyman can interpret scripture anyway he pleases - yeah those protestants...
you bet it’s an attack on that bunch....
why are you part of that herd?
Lurking’
Chilstrom helped me make my decision to become Catholic.
>>Are there conservative Methodist denominations?
There are plenty of conservative Methodists and there are even conservative Methodist congregations, but the heirarchy of the church won’t ordain a conservative anymore, so as the old conservative pastors retire and die, we move more and more to the left. Quite a few non-denominational churches are very Wesleyan because they broke off from the UMC.
We don’t have many Free Methodist churches in the south. I think those are mostly a midwest thing. But, they are very conservative.
Luther sowed the seeds of this abominable theology when he rejected the authority of sacred Tradition when it came to Biblical interpretation.
Within 150 years, you had the rise of Pietism, and the Lutheran Confessions became increasingly disregarded until the 19th century when people like CFW Walther fled to America.
We are seeing the fruits of Pietism in stark colors.
Confessional Lutheranism is thriving. It should be as this is the True Lutheranism
Well, I am glad you found home. Your comment made me realize that I had a very wayward Catholic pastor who actually made me a better Catholic: what he was preaching was so bizarre that I felt compelled to research his nonsense and thereby I came to understand how great it is to be Catholic because we can rely on firm authority and firm doctrine, and can. Be certain in knowing when our pastor is plain wrong. I understood that my pastor was NOT the arbiter of doctrine and that the Church had all of the answers. I hope you delight in being Catholic. Holy Advent to you.
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