Posted on 12/07/2011 8:24:20 AM PST by Salvation
Your rabid delusion is manifest for all to see, with no other RC here even helping you on this, and your lonely denial impugns even the strained efforts of others.
Until you concede your error any further responses will be considered spam. Warning.
What a blessed promise to be with Christ in heaven during the most terrible time in history on this earth. Thank you for posting that boatbums!
orthodox, historical, Biblical Christian doctrine is now referred to as a “rabid delusion”
it’s sad, what else can one say to such a comment.
When one has the drunken illusion of being 'free', why then one can come up with all manner of novelties, secure in the notion that one will never be called on them...
So do you agree that the Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 (cf. 15:7-9) were not yet regenerated until they were baptized? Or that they were and were baptized with the Spirit (Acts 11:15-18) before being baptized with water, testifying to their acceptance by God? That is the contention at issue, which goes back some posts. See http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2811552/posts?page=2935#2935
Thanks for the reference. I think that we may be talking past each other in terms of what 'regeneration' means. As I understand it, Protestants believe in 'imputation' of the holiness of an external source (God), or else the 'covering up' of sins which still continue.
We believe, as in 2 Peter 1:4:
4Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire.b 5* For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, virtue with knowledge,c 6knowledge with self-control, self-control with endurance, endurance with devotion, 7devotion with mutual affection, mutual affection with love. 8If these are yours and increase in abundance, they will keep you from being idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9d Anyone who lacks them is blind and shortsighted, forgetful of the cleansing of his past sins.
We believe that baptism makes us a new creature and that as Jesus said that we must be born of water and the Holy Spirit. Now, the Church teaches of the baptism of desire (as in the good thief), but setting aside special cases, we believe that both are required.
Thanks for the reference. I think that we may be talking past each other in terms of what 'regeneration' means. As I understand it, Protestants believe in 'imputation' of the holiness of an external source (God), or else the 'covering up' of sins which still continue.
We believe, as in 2 Peter 1:4:
4Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire.b 5* For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, virtue with knowledge,c 6knowledge with self-control, self-control with endurance, endurance with devotion, 7devotion with mutual affection, mutual affection with love. 8If these are yours and increase in abundance, they will keep you from being idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9d Anyone who lacks them is blind and shortsighted, forgetful of the cleansing of his past sins.
We believe that baptism makes us a new creature and that as Jesus said that we must be born of water and the Holy Spirit. Now, the Church teaches of the baptism of desire (as in the good thief), but setting aside special cases, we believe that both are required.
Thanks for your reasonable reply. In both groups regeneration is that of the new birth, being made spiritually alive, (Eph. 2:1,5) by the incoming of the Holy Spirit whom God sends into the believers heart crying “Abba, Father. (Gal. 4:6) This is linked to justification and sanctification, in In both groups this being all one event, though there is disagreement on the order in Protestantism.
What i see you describing is justification, which in Protestantism is based on faith appropriating it, faith in the crucified and risen Lord Christ being counted for righteousness (versus confidence in one's merit or sacrifices, or being actually holy enough to be with God ) that being “imputed righteousness” which justifies the unGodly, (Rm. 4:1-12; 2Cor. 5:21) with one being set apart or “sanctified” positionally. (1Cor. 6:11) And which is thus lived out practically, as such faith must be of a kind as effects obedience towards its Object and growth in grace, affirming one is saved, in response to being given eternal life by faith, not deserved by any merit of works. But which works are recompensed under grace according to one's own labor at the judgment seat of Christ. (1Cor. 3; Heb. 10:35)
In Roman Catholicism justification is based upon what regeneration effects, (Titus 3:5) that of sanctification by a holy heart, or “infused righteousness,” all undeserved but (normatively) conveyed by the performing of act of baptism, ex opere operatos (by the very fact of the action's being performed), and which is then lived out, with growth in grace increasing one's justification, and thus the good works of the one justified that he performs by the grace of God merits the attainment of eternal life itself. (Trent, Canon 32) But which is held not as one earning eternal life, but God rewarding works in accordance with His benevolent faithfulness in grace.
We believe, as in 2 Peter 1:4:
How many really do is the question (and i have far to go) , but we call this growing in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. (2Pt. 3:18) (Peter was a real “holiness Pentecostal.') And by so doing you may never fall, persevering in faith, and which confirms one is of faith, though one's but not increasing one's justification with God as this was never gained by Godliness, but was imputed to the unGodly by a faith that would effect Godliness. To the glory of God.
We believe that baptism makes us a new creature and that as Jesus said that we must be born of water and the Holy Spirit. Now, the Church teaches of the baptism of desire (as in the good thief), but setting aside special cases, we believe that both are required.
As prior said, I see the faith that baptism requires and expresses as being what actually appropriates justification, and it being no more a work that justifies than confessing with the mouth the justifying faith that is in the heart, (Rm. 10:9,10) but which normatively should be the first formal confession of the Lord Jesus (and may be the occasion some effectually do).
And I understand the basic Catholic position and exception, and expressed this in response to the argument on the necessity of baptism being necessary for regeneration, and of Acts 10 being disallowed as showing regeneration by faith before baptism, that being the particular issue you responded to. I take it then that you would allow the latter even if as an exception?
We see baptism as a step on the way, not an end in itself. It gets us in the door, so to speak. It is an admission to the PGA tour, which allows us to start the tournament, but even with all the help of PGA staff, if we do not (as John Daly) hold with the practices and standards of the PGA, then we may be then excluded. With proper repentence, we may be allowed to be included once again.
However, we still do understand that salvation is entirely of God and He will save those whom He will, for whatever reasons that He holds. That is why, when you read the Catechism (if you ever do), you will see that the Church allows for the salvation of even the Muslims. We admit what we do not know, and say that we believe in these things because of the revelation of Christ. There are some things that we do not know - the particulars of Mary's Assumption, for instance. The Orthodox are even more secure in their non-definition of certain doctrines than the Latin branch.
The Orthodox side descended from philosophers and artisans. The Latins descended from engineers and soldiers. That largely describes the cultural difference between us.
But we both believe that baptism is a starting point; there is the Judgement of the individual and that we are Judged based upon what the Judge deems relevant.
What Lumen Gentium means in regards to that, as well as salvation of Protestants, etc., is subject to different interpretations by Catholics.
There are some things that we do not know - the particulars of Mary's Assumption, for instance.
To name just a few.
The Orthodox are even more secure in their non-definition of certain doctrines than the Latin branch.
I am ware they are less precise and criticize the West for being so.
The Orthodox side descended from philosophers and artisans. The Latins descended from engineers and soldiers. That largely describes the cultural difference between us.
Thanks for the history.
Well, thankfully, according to the Word of God, salvation is available through Jesus Christ, not any single denomination.
A word of advice to every believer of any denomination: Do as the Bereans did. Check anything and everything your pastor, priest, spiritural leaders tell you against the Word of God. If it doesn't match, do not believe it.
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