How odd that this should all be discussed on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception.
"O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!"
Posted on 12/07/2011 8:24:20 AM PST by Salvation
Why is it so hard for you to accept that, when the moon is in full blush, and the rose blooms heavy by the thorn, the path to wisdom cries——littered with the corpses of the fallen——yet the worm goes to sleep hungry?
Thank you for the ping Salvation. A good article.
Best Regards
Good response.
“The outward act or ordinance of water baptism is a first act of obedience to testify to others of identification with Christ, as followers of him.”
any Scripture to back any of this man made tradition up?
for example:
1. where does the Bible refer to baptism as an “outward act”?
2. where does the Bible refer to baptism as “water baptism”?
3. where does the Bible say baptism is any act of obedience?
4. where does the Bible say baptism is for “testifying” to others?
bonus question for you:
must someone accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior to be saved or is merely believing Jesus Christ is the Son of God sufficient?
1. When Jesus gave the EXAMPLE as he was baptized.
2. When Phillip baptized the eunuch in a mud hole because there was no other water available
3. When Jesus gave Peter the”keys”to the kingdom, and said what peter says regarding salvation would be honored in heaven...then when Peter was asked “what must we do to be saved?”, he replied “repent and BE BAPTIZED
4. Not sure it does
Bonus: nowhere in the Bible does it say to “accept”the Lord....and just believing on him is insufficient, it actually says you must believe on him according to the Bible definition which means you will have the Holy Ghost ....that is what the Bible says, not me....
God is not a God of the dead, but of the living.
I don't care about this. Catholics can make up whatever rules they want for their own church.
Yes. We Catholics made up the rule that we should follow Jesus' example. Christ preached obedience, which most Catholics observe. Protestantism came out of rebellion which has a distinct other source.
Not “going there” with you, OLOFOB. These questions of yours have been answered by many others - including me - many times. You just don’t accept them because it would require you to give up your favorite “hobby horse”. If you REALLY were searching for the answers, you would not still be asking the same questions because every single one has already been answered. I have better uses for my time.
How odd that this should all be discussed on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception.
"O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!"
**when the moon is in full blush, and the rose blooms heavy by the thorn, the path to wisdom cries——littered with the corpses of the fallen——yet the worm goes to sleep hungry?**
And just where in the Bible is all of that?
It would seem that you have never asked anyone to pray for you. Is that true?
That’s all we ask Mary to do — pray for us.
Roman Catholics certainly have made up many of their own rules that they follow and I have no problem with that. However, Jesus never said anything about a special priesthood of men. In fact, as Peter taught, we are ALL "built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ" (I Peter 2:5). Nor did Jesus ever teach that women had no place in the ministry of the Gospel. There were women disciples that initially followed Jesus and the early church had many women that participated in the activities of the local churches. There may have even been women deacons. Certainly, Paul spoke of women that hosted churches within their own homes and supported his many missionary journeys. I agree with Paul, though, that women should not "usurp" authority over a man which, I believe, would exclude women from being pastors or overseers of churches. Now, this may very well have been due to the culture where women were to "keep silent" in the church and to ask their husbands questions about teachings when they got home so there was no interruption. Now days, women are more Biblically literate than men and seem to be the spiritual leaders in the home, which is a shame for Christian men. They SHOULD be the spiritual leaders in their homes.
So, I do not deny that Catholics observe rules and laws set up by their leaders in the Church. I just prefer that they stay honest about what Scripture teaches and what they create outside of what Scripture teaches.
What you call "Protestantism" and its presumed origins, only proves that you have accepted some more of the teachings of your church which do not have a basis in either Scripture or truth. If you, instead, looked at history objectively you would know that the Reformation happened because of the growing apostasy of the Roman Catholic Church and was - rather than as you say an act of rebellion - an act of genuine, God-loving Christians who sought to return the Church back to her Biblical roots. There were many such believers around that time that were sickened by the excesses of the hierarchy and the Biblical ignorance of the clergy who barely knew what they believed anymore, nor why they believed it. There are many good articles that speak about the Reformation, its leaders, their reasons, their faith and what really happened. If you are interested in hearing more than one side, I'd be happy to give you some helpful links. Let me know. Have a good night.
Aliens, clones masquerading as gods and demons, idols everywhere, dead people…
Piero di Cosimo, so beautiful...
A title of the Blessed Virgin as mediator of grace. There are two aspects of this mediation. It is certain in Catholic theology that, since Mary gave birth to the Redeemer, who is source of all grace, she is in this way the channel of all graces to mankind. But it is only probable, as a legitimate opinion, that since Mary's Assumption into heaven no grace is received by humans without her actual intercessory co-operation.
On the first level of mediation, Mary freely co-operated with God in consenting to the Incarnation, giving birth to her Son and thus sharing with him in spirit the labors of his passion and death. Yet Christ alone truly offered the sacrifice of atonement on the Cross. Mary gave him moral support in this action. She is therefore not entitled to the name "priest," as several Roman documents legislate. As explained by the Council of Florence in 1441, Christ "conquered the enemy of the human race alone" (Denzinger, 1347). In the same way he alone acquired the grace of redemption for the whole human race, including Mary. Her part in the objective redemption, therefore, was indirect and remote, and derived from her voluntary devotion to the service of Christ. Under the Cross she suffered and sacrificed with him, but subordinate to him in such a way that all the efficacy of her oblation depended on that of her Son.
On the second stage of mediation, Mary co-operates by her maternal intercession in applying Christ's redemptive grace to human beings, called the subjective redemption. This does not imply that the faithful must pray for all graces through Mary, nor that her intercession is inherently necessary for the distribution of divine blessing, but that, according to God's special ordinance, the graces merited by Christ are conferred through the actual intercessory mediation of his mother. Recent popes and the Second Vatican Council have spoken in favor of this type of mediation, which finds support in patristic tradition.
Sacrifice of the Mass
Magesterial Quotes
Catechism of the Catholic Church
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." (see note 395) For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness. (see note 396)Read More
"He died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures"Read More
603 Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned. (see note 405) But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (see note 406) Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God "did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all", so that we might be "reconciled to God by the death of his Son". (see note 407)Read
God takes the initiative of universal redeeming loveRead More
605 At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God's love excludes no one: "So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish." (see note 410) He affirms that he came "to give his life as a ransom for many"; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us. (see note 411) The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: "There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer." (see note 412)Read More
Supporting Bible Passages
Psalms Chapter 110
4: The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind, "You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchiz'edek."Read More
Zechariah Chapter 14
1: Behold, a day of the LORD is coming, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in the midst of you. 2: For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3: Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. 4: On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward. 5: And the valley of my mountains shall be stopped up, for the valley of the mountains shall touch the side of it; and you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzzi'ah king of Judah. Then the LORD your God will come, and all the holy ones with him. 6: On that day there shall be neither cold nor frost. 7: And there shall be continuous day (it is known to the LORD), not day and not night, for at evening time there shall be light. 8: On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea; it shall continue in summer as in winter. 9: And the LORD will become king over all the earth; on that day the LORD will be one and his name one. 10: The whole land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. But Jerusalem shall remain aloft upon its site from the Gate of Benjamin to the place of the former gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Han'anel to the king's wine presses. 11: And it shall be inhabited, for there shall be no more curse; Jerusalem shall dwell in security. 12: And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will smite all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem: their flesh shall rot while they are still on their feet, their eyes shall rot in their sockets, and their tongues shall rot in their mouths. 13: And on that day a great panic from the LORD shall fall on them, so that each will lay hold on the hand of his fellow, and the hand of the one will be raised against the hand of the other; 14: even Judah will fight against Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the nations round about shall be collected, gold, silver, and garments in great abundance. 15: And a plague like this plague shall fall on the horses, the mules, the camels, the asses, and whatever beasts may be in those camps. 16: Then every one that survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of booths. 17: And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain upon them. 18: And if the family of Egypt do not go up and present themselves, then upon them shall come the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the feast of booths. 19: This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the feast of booths. 20: And on that day there shall be inscribed on the bells of the horses, "Holy to the LORD." And the pots in the house of the LORD shall be as the bowls before the altar; 21: and every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be sacred to the LORD of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and take of them and boil the flesh of the sacrifice in them. And there shall no longer be a trader in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.Read More
Malachi Chapter 1
11: For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.Read More
1 Corinthians Chapter 5
7: Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed. 8: Let us, therefore, celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.Read More
1 Corinthians Chapter 11
24: and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."Read More
Hebrews Chapter 8
1: Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2: a minister in the sanctuary and the true tent which is set up not by man but by the Lord. 3: For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; hence it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer.Read More
1 John Chapter 2
1: My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2: and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.Read More
Revelation Chapter 5
6: And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth;Read More
Early Church Fathers
Clement I, Pope [27-97 AD] First Epistle "Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its sacrifices. Blessed are those presbyters who have already finished their course, and who have obtained a fruitful and perfect release" (Letter to the Corinthians 44:4–5 [A.D. 80]).Read More
Ignatius of Antioch [50-117 AD] The Martyrdom of Ignatius "Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice-even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God" (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).Read More
Justin Martyr [100-165 AD] Dialogue with Trypho (Chapters 9-47)
"God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles . . . [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]).Read More
Irenaeus of Lyons [120-180 AD] Adversus Haereses (Book IV, Chapter 17)
"He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, ‘This is my body.’ The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, he confessed to be his blood. He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant, of which Malachi, one of the twelve [minor] prophets, had signified beforehand: ‘You do not do my will, says the Lord Almighty, and I will not accept a sacrifice at your hands. For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice; for great is my name among the Gentiles, says the Lord Almighty’ [Mal. 1:10–11]. By these words he makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; but that in every place sacrifice will be offered to him, and indeed, a pure one, for his name is glorified among the Gentiles" (Against Heresies 4:17:5 [A.D. 189]).Read More
Cyprian of Carthage [200-270 AD] Epistle 62 "If Christ Jesus, our Lord and God, is himself the high priest of God the Father; and if he offered himself as a sacrifice to the Father; and if he commanded that this be done in commemoration of himself, then certainly the priest, who imitates that which Christ did, truly functions in place of Christ" (Letters 63:14 [A.D. 253]).Read More Cyril of Jerusalem, St [315-386 AD] Catechetical Lecture 23 "Then, having sanctified ourselves by these spiritual hymns, we beseech the merciful God to send forth his Holy Spirit upon the gifts lying before him, that he may make the bread the Body of Christ and the wine the Blood of Christ, for whatsoever the Holy Spirit has touched is surely sanctified and changed. Then, upon the completion of the spiritual sacrifice, the bloodless worship, over that propitiatory victim we call upon God for the common peace of the churches, for the welfare of the world, for kings, for soldiers and allies, for the sick, for the afflicted; and in summary, we all pray and offer this sacrifice for all who are in need" (Catechetical Lectures 23:7–8 [A.D. 350]).Read More
Gregory Nazianzen, St [325-389 AD] Letters (Division III) "Cease not to pray and plead for me when you draw down the Word by your word, when in an unbloody cutting you cut the Body and Blood of the Lord, using your voice for a sword" (Letter to Amphilochius 171 [A.D. 383]).Read More Ambrose of Milan, St [340-397 AD] Letter 18 "We saw the prince of priests coming to us, we saw and heard him offering his blood for us. We follow, inasmuch as we are able, being priests, and we offer the sacrifice on behalf of the people. Even if we are of but little merit, still, in the sacrifice, we are honorable. Even if Christ is not now seen as the one who offers the sacrifice, nevertheless it is he himself that is offered in sacrifice here on Earth when the body of Christ is offered. Indeed, to offer himself he is made visible in us, he whose word makes holy the sacrifice that is offered" (Commentaries on Twelve Psalms of David 38:25 [A.D. 389]).Read More John Chrysostom, St [347-407 AD] Homily 8 on Romans "Reverence, therefore, reverence this table, of which we are all communicants! Christ, slain for us, the sacrificial victim who is placed thereon!" (Homilies on Romans 8:8 [A.D. 391]).Read More
John Chrysostom, St [347-407 AD] Homily 24 on First Corinthians
"‘The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not communion of the blood of Christ?’ Very trustworthy and awesomely does he [Paul] say it. For what he is saying is this: What is in the cup is that which flowed from his side, and we partake of it. He called it a cup of blessing because when we hold it in our hands that is how we praise him in song, wondering and astonished at his indescribable gift, blessing him because of his having poured out this very gift so that we might not remain in error; and not only for his having poured it out, but also for his sharing it with all of us. ‘If therefore you desire blood,’ he [the Lord] says, ‘do not redden the platform of idols with the slaughter of dumb beasts, but my altar of sacrifice with my blood.’ What is more awesome than this? What, pray tell, more tenderly loving?" (Homilies on First Corinthians 24:1(3) [A.D. 392]).Read More
John Chrysostom, St [347-407 AD] Homily 41 on First Corinthians
"In ancient times, because men were very imperfect, God did not scorn to receive the blood which they were offering . . . to draw them away from those idols; and this very thing again was because of his indescribable, tender affection. But now he has transferred the priestly action to what is most awesome and magnificent. He has changed the sacrifice itself, and instead of the butchering of dumb beasts, he commands the offering up of himself" (ibid., 24:2).Read More
John Chrysostom, St [347-407 AD] Homily 17 on Hebrews "What then? Do we not offer daily? Yes, we offer, but making remembrance of his death; and this remembrance is one and not many. How is it one and not many? Because this sacrifice is offered once, like that in the Holy of Holies. This sacrifice is a type of that, and this remembrance a type of that. We offer always the same, not one sheep now and another tomorrow, but the same thing always. Thus there is one sacrifice. By this reasoning, since the sacrifice is offered everywhere, are there, then, a multiplicity of Christs? By no means! Christ is one everywhere. He is complete here, complete there, one body. And just as he is one body and not many though offered everywhere, so too is there one sacrifice" (Homilies on Hebrews 17:3(6) [A.D. 403]).Read More
John Chrysostom, St [347-407 AD] On the Priesthood (Book III)
"When you see the Lord immolated and lying upon the altar, and the priest bent over that sacrifice praying, and all the people empurpled by that precious blood, can you think that you are still among men and on earth? Or are you not lifted up to heaven?" (The Priesthood 3:4:177 [A.D. 387]).Read More
Miscellaneous [Unknown] Canons of the Thirteen Holy Fathers (various dates)
"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).Read More
Augustine of Hippo, St [354-430 AD] The City of God (Book XVII)
"For when he says in another book, which is called Ecclesiastes, ‘There is no good for a man except that he should eat and drink’ [Eccles. 2:24], what can he be more credibly understood to say [prophetically] than what belongs to the participation of this table which the Mediator of the New Testament himself, the priest after the order of Melchizedek, furnishes with his own body and blood? For that sacrifice has succeeded all the sacrifices of the Old Testament, which were slain as a shadow of what was to come. . . . Because, instead of all these sacrifices and oblations, his body is offered and is served up to the partakers of it" (The City of God 17:20 [A.D. 419]).Read More
Augustine of Hippo, St [354-430 AD] Tractate 40 (John 8:28-32)
"In the sacrament he is immolated for the people not only on every Easter Solemnity but on every day; and a man would not be lying if, when asked, he were to reply that Christ is being immolated. For if sacraments had not a likeness to those things of which they are sacraments, they would not be sacraments at all; and they generally take the names of those same things by reason of this likeness" (Letters 98:9 [A.D. 412]).Read More
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