Tis the season for Smithmas; Whom do you worship? [Mormon Merry Smithmas]

Here we are with another Thanksgiving and Christmas season upon us! I love this time of year for the changing colors of the trees, the air smells like the season’s cold is getting ready to lay itself down upon us, and of course for the food. Yum!

Alas, I would be remiss if I were to go about my day in this glorious time without giving my favorite reason…Jesus!

While December 25th may not be the actual date of Jesus’ birth, it serves as a great reminder for us as to why we celebrate to begin with!

I was writing an article a few weeks ago when I noticed a pattern of sorts in my copy of the Gospelink Program I use for research on Mormonism. It has a section where you can store your favorite quotes and scriptures for easy access. Skimming through the file for a specific quote, I noticed how many entries I had placed in this folder for references in regards to Joseph Smith and the homage members pay to him.

I have written many times on the importance of Smith’s claims and the impact they have upon the members of the Church. I could write a book on the many letters we receive and how many times I’ve been told that they do not worship Joseph Smith, but as I’ve said before and will say again…you be the judge and read what they say! Below are a mere handful of examples of what they think of ol’ Joe.

For the sake of brevity, I will be posting only the vital parts of the actual document, but will include the exact location for the reader to do further investigation. If you cannot find the documentation in your own books or library you can read them at www.lds.org for verification. As always, I strongly encourage each member of the Church to read the actual document for proof as I have nothing to hide.

1. Joseph Smith: The Choice Seer, epilogue: “Ours is the song of praise to the man ordained from eternity past to part the veil and open the heavens, for through him the fulness of truth and the fulness of priesthood powers have come to earth again.” – Joseph Fielding McConkie.

2. Handbook of the Restoration [pamphlets], pg. 50; “…God chose this man. He spoke through him. The virgin, unsophisticated mind of the youth was a fertile field for the planting of spiritual seeds. They grew and matured into a perfect faith that brought Joseph into partnership with God. When that came to be, there was nothing unattainable, for as we are told of old, one man and God are a majority.” – Various Authors

3. Handbook of the Restoration [pamphlets], pg. 50-1; “If any man has received in his heart the witness of the divine truth embraced in the contributions of the Prophet Joseph, I charge him to be true,-true to his testimony, true to the Prophet, the founder, true to the cause… If any man has not received this witness, I appeal for his thoughtful, prayerful, sympathetic consideration. I offer to him…assurance that if he will receive and apply the teachings of Joseph Smith he will be made happy. Doubt and uncertainty will leave him…” – Various Authors

4. Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pgs. 22-3; “…He opened up communication with the heavens in his youth. He brought forth the Book of Mormon, which contains the fullness of the Gospel… In a word, he did more in from 14 to 20 years for the salvation of man than any other man save Jesus only, that ever lived. (JD 24:14-15.).” – Comment by Joseph F. Smith. Also D&C 135.

5. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 363; “…God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don’t like it, you must lump it. I have been giving Elder Adams instruction in some principles to speak to you, and if he makes a mistake, I will get up and correct him. (April 8, 1844.).”

6. The Doctrine and Covenants Speaks, 2:456; “One of Joseph Smith’s contributions to the salvation of men in this world was the bringing forth of “. . . the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God. . . . ” (D&C 135:3.).”

7. Doctrines of Salvation 1:192; “ONLY JOSEPH SMITH FULFILS ANCIENT PROMISES. Joseph Smith declared that he, with Oliver Cowdery, his companion, received the keys of the gathering of Israel. No one else ever claimed to have had them revealed to him. If Joseph Smith did not receive them, then someone must be empowered with this authority before the coming of the Lord…Malachi has said that the Lord would send Elijah before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. The Prophet Joseph Smith said he (Elijah) came to him and Oliver Cowdery with the keys of that power. If he did not, and they have told a falsehood….”

8. Answers: Straightforward Answers to Tough Gospel Questions, pgs. 48-9; “Joseph Smith and many of the leading brethren of that day were Masons. The question implies that there is something secret or sinister in their Masonic affiliation. This was hardly the case. The Saints who built Nauvoo built a Masonic lodge there. It is among the buildings that have been restored in Nauvoo, and visitors are encouraged to visit it…It is not inconceivable that the Prophet, sensing something about the ancient roots of Masonry, inquired of the Lord about it. In that sense it may have been one of the influences that prepared the way for the revelations that restored the ceremonies of the temple…The idea that the kind of faith and courage common to our pioneer forebears grew out of rituals copied from a fraternal organization is ludicrous.”

9. Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 200; “In relation to the power over the minds of mankind which I hold, I would say, It is in consequence of the power of truth in the doctrines which I have been an instrument in the hands of God of presenting unto them, and not because of any compulsion on my part…Why do not my enemies strike a blow at the doctrine? They cannot do it: it is truth, and I defy all men to upset it. I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, “Repent ye of your sins and prepare the way for the coming of the Son of Man…”

10. Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 31; “The Prophet’s Effectiveness – I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. (HC 6:408-9.)”

11. History of the Church 5:218; “Some of the company thought I was not a very meek Prophet; so I told them: “I am meek and lowly in heart,” and will personify Jesus for a moment, to illustrate the principle, and cried out with a loud voice, “Woe unto you, ye doctors; woe unto you, ye lawyers; woe unto you, ye scribes, Pharisees, and hypocrites!” &c. But you cannot find the place where I ever went that I found fault with their food, their drink, their house, their lodgings; no, never; and this is what is meant by the meekness and lowliness of Jesus.”

12. Doctrines of Salvation 1:184; “Joseph Smith was chosen to stand at the head of the work of the Lord in the last days, and his work was assigned to him through the fore-knowledge of our Eternal Father in the eternities before he was born. He came in the spirit of Elias to prepare the way for the coming of our Lord. No prophet since the days of Adam, save, of course, our Redeemer, has been given a greater mission.”

13. Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 179; “My enemies say that I have been a true prophet. Why, I had rather be a fallen true prophet than a false prophet. When a man goes about prophesying, and commands men to obey his teachings, he must either be a true or false prophet. False prophets always arise to oppose the true prophets and they will prophesy so very near the truth that they will deceive almost the very chosen ones. (HC 6:364.)”

14. History of the Church, 6:364-5; “…He that arms himself with gun, sword, or pistol, except in the defense of truth, will sometime be sorry for it. I never carry any weapon with me bigger than my penknife. When I was dragged before the cannon and muskets in Missouri, I was unarmed. God will always protect me until my mission is fulfilled.(Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols., introduction and notes by B. H. Roberts [Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1932-1951], 6: 364 – 365.)”

15. Great are the Words of Isaiah, pg. 71; “Isaiah 11:10; The interpretation of this passage has been given by Joseph Smith in D&C 113:1-4. The stem of Jesse is Christ. The book of Revelation also identifies Jesus as such (see Rev. 5:5; 22:16). The rod is “a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim” (D&C 113:4). That the servant is Joseph Smith himself seems evident.”

16. Journal of Discourses 7:289; “…no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ…”

17. Joseph Smith: Choice Seer, preface; “In assessing the marvelous impact of the Choice Seer’s work on this dispensation, we will turn first and foremost to the doctrinal teachings of Joseph Smith as set forth in his sermons, letters, revelations, translations, and narrations. In addition, we will rely occasionally on the clarifications and expansions of those who knew Brother Joseph firsthand and studied at his feet, as well as those apostolic and prophetic successors to whom is given the divine mandate to build on the doctrinal foundation he laid.”

18. Handbook of the Restoration: A Discussion of Gospel Themes, pg. 25-35; “Joseph Smith… That he was an extraordinary man is conceded by friend and foe…a restorer of the pure and uncorrupted gospel of Jesus Christ. At no time did he declare that he brought a new message of salvation to the world; his mission was to restore and declare, to expound and enlarge the old truth… the commentaries by the apostles, which constitute the latter part of the New Testament, are fragmentary and incomplete. Joseph, the Prophet, gave to the world in this day a large and rich interpretation of the gospel of Jesus Christ…The achievements of Joseph Smith are much greater than those of ordinary men; they appear to transcend usual human powers, and cannot be explained in terms of common experience… Space does not permit us to illustrate the divine power of Joseph Smith by the many principles of truth that he taught.”

19. Joseph Smith’s Idea of the Gospel, pg. 8; “Joseph Smith’s view of the gospel is based upon the assumption that, before the fall, Adam resided in the presence of God and, consequently, was enveloped in the life-giving, quickening powers that constitute God’s glory or presence. In this condition, his whole being was filled with intelligence and life, and corruption in every form was foreign to his nature. In the words of the Prophet, “All corruption is devoured by the fire.”

20. Divine Authority or the Question, Was Joseph Smith sent of God?, pg. 4; “How came Mr.Smith, if a deceiver, to think of all this? Did Martin Luther, Wesley, Whitfield, Swedenborg, or Irving think of this? Whence his superior intellect, his depth of understanding, his extensive foresight, that he should so far surpass all former impostors for 1700 years? John testifies that when the everlasting gospel is restored to the earth it shall be by an angel. Mr.Smith testifies that it was restored by an angel, and in no other way. This is another presumptive evidence that he was sent of God.”

22. Encyclopedia of Mormonism, pg. 546; “Though Latter-day Saints extensively use the scriptures to learn about God, their fundamental knowledge concerning him is based upon the Prophet Joseph Smith’s first vision, the Prophet’s subsequent revelatory experiences, and individual personal revelation.”

23. Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 7; “In thirty nations are men and women who look upon him as a greater leader than Moses and a greater prophet than Isaiah; his disciples now number close to a million [the present figure is over 3.5 million]; and already a granite shaft pierces the sky over the place where he was born, and another is in course of erection over the place where he is credited with having received the inspiration for his Book. (John Henry Evans, op. cit., introduction.)”

24. Answers: Straightforward Answers to Tough Gospel Questions, pg. 48; “… Joseph Smith was told that he was a descendant of Abraham…He was also told that he was a lawful heir, “according to the flesh,” to the priesthood…Prophecy further identified him as a direct lineal descendant of Joseph of Egypt… More particularly, he is represented as being a descendant of Ephraim and as having some of the blood of Jesse… title page to the Book of Mormon, which was written by Moroni, says that it will come forth by the hand of a Gentile. Reference here is to his citizenship in a Gentile nation… Thus Joseph Smith was a literal descendant of the house of Israel while at the same time being a citizen of a Gentile nation.”

So we’ll ask the question again. Doesn’t this sound like worship? We’ve listed more than enough examples where various leaders have claimed Smith is greater than Moses or Isaiah, he is related to Jesus, has done more than any other man on earth except Jesus, people studied at his feet and don’t forget, he saved the world! The most startling evidence is taken from their hymn book, Praise to the Man. To the average member of the Church it may not seem as if you’re worshipping Joseph and I can remember thinking and feeling the same way. I encourage the members to take another look after reading this and then ask yourself; “who am I worshipping”?

We see in Hebrews 9:24-28; 10:1-4; “For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation….For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.”

It is impossible for man to please God without the blood of Jesus Christ. This doesn’t mean that we work for salvation because Jesus died for us! It means that Jesus did all the work alone! If you love Jesus like you say you do, please, take one day in the next week and think about everything He did for you! Think about the time He spent on the cross, read the gospels, see what He said, where He walked, what did He do? These are the things we set our minds upon as members of the body of Christ. We think about what Jesus did, the various titles that are given to Him and why, people’s reaction to Him, the patience that He portrayed for people and His unselfish love. As a Mormon can you name Jesus’ favorite place to pray?

Why would you as a Christian place a mere human between yourself and Jesus? This is exactly what the LDS Church has done with Joseph Smith! Many times members of the Church don’t even use Joseph Smith’s last name. Most refer to him as just “Joseph” and everyone knows who is being spoken of; yet when was the last time you heard a Mormon use the name of just “Jesus”? If a Christian were to use just the name of Joseph when speaking about “religious” topics they would think of Joseph from the Bible, not Joseph Smith!

Oh, He so wants for you to know Him! For just one day think upon only Jesus, if you’re really a Christian this shouldn’t be a problem. See if you can name 24 facts about Jesus in regards to His birth, how He fulfilled an Old Testament prophecy, what if anything did He say about His own death, what significant things took place when He died, a miracle He performed and why, etc. Use just the Bible for your investigation and find out first hand if it really does contradict itself.

If you’re a Mormon know that we’re praying for you. If you’re a Christian who has a friend or family member who is LDS, let us know how we can pray for you and him/her! We’re not here to bash the LDS people or to bring shame upon them publicly; we are here to contend for the faith as it says in Jude 3 and to share the truth about God’s Son, Christ Jesus!

Yes, Mormons really believe that stuff. Also, a few Mormons are truly ignorant of LDS teachings and history but many lie or dissemble in order to make the LDS church appear "Christian". I am pasting another post I had written about LDS 'lying for the Lord' that has a conversation similar to ones I had when I was LDS. Hope this helps. The LDS don’t do systematic theology. For years the closest thing was Bruce R. McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine”. Now that has been thrown under the bus because some of his statements are embarassing to the LDS church even though they have not reputiated anything said in there and it was approved by the Prophet and Apostles and published by the main LDS publishing company (an LDS version of nihil obstat or imprimitur). The LDS use manuals, published every few years, on a rotation for Sunday School, Priesthood/Relief Society and their High School and College religion classes. They are also discouraged from researching on their own or reading old ‘primary sources’. Sadly, they are spoon fed theology in a manner that keeps them from looking too deep. My ‘crime’ as it were was going beyond the manuals given to me and actually trying to make sense and research LDS history and doctrine in order to prove the ‘antis’ were lying. As to why I lied about LDS beliefs (or dissembled), there is a constantly used phrase/idea that comes down from the leadership of “every member a missionary”. It means that every member is to try to convert people to Mormonism. Couple that with the other oftused meme of “don’t do anything that makes ‘the Church’ look bad” and you have an interesting combination. The “why” gets down to these. It is easier to lie or omit things or twist words than it is to explain what the LDS really believe and risk losing a potential convert or have someone go away thinking less than glowing things about the LDS church. Every member is expected to find ‘investigators’ (people who would be interested in converting who take the missionary discussions - similar to RCIA). There is also a lot of people who hear things about beliefs but don’t know enough to know what the LDS are saying, that they use different meanings for terms, even though the LDS usually know that Christians mean different things. A typical exchange could go like this... non - LDS - “I have a lot of Mormon friends, and they are nice people, but don’t Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers?” LDS - No! We don’t believe that at all! Jesus is the only begotten Son of God! Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and they said that all other churches had some problems and Joseph needed to start a Church that was the same as the one when Jesus Christ was on the Earth. Why don’t you come over for dinner and we will have the missionaries talk to you? There is a set of 6 discussions that they give that shows what we believe. non-LDS - “Well, ok, but I read somewhere that Mormons believe they will become Gods” LDS - “That was probably written by someone who has a grudge against the Church. They probably are one of the ones who gets paid to badmouth the Church or someone who couldn’t live by the principles of the Church so they left or they were offended by someone in their ward. Ok, lets parse this. Notice how many times “the Church” is used. For the LDS it is all about “the Church”. LDS ‘testimonies’ often start out with “I know the Church is true”. Then there is the automatic denial that Jesus and Satan are brothers. We saw it on this a thread the other day even. Now, all LDS know that their church teaches Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers. So why would you get a resounding “NO”? Because it makes their theology look silly. By stating “No” the LDS are lying to you, but they are thinking “Well they aren’t flesh brothers, just spirit brothers like we all are, Jesus is our Elder brother”. The other day an LDS came on one of these threads and stated “Jesus and Lucifer aren’t brothers, as if by Mary!”. Notice the subtlety of it. “As if by Mary” implying they aren’t physical brothers (which no one claimed). But they left out That Lucifer was the second born and Jesus was the firstborn of the spirit children. Next we come to what would appear to be a rebuttal to the claim Jesus and Satan are brothers. “Jesus is the only begotten Son of God!” what they are not telling you is that they mean it in a literal sense. Jesus and Satan are SPIRIT brothers (like all of us) but Jesus is God’s physical son, God came down, had sex with Mary and conceived Jesus. So it isn’t a rebuttal at all and the LDS know that. They are intentionally twisting words to make you think they don’t believe Jesus and Satan are Spirit brothers. Next Phrase - “Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and they said that all other churches had some problems and Joseph needed to start a Church that was the same as the one when Jesus Christ was on the Earth.” This is referring to the “First Vision” (of which there are several contradictory accounts) and the Great Apostasy. The LDS will tone down things said about other Christians. In the first vision account, Smith isn’t told that other churches ‘had problems’ he was told “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt http://lds.org/library/display/0,4945,104-1-3-4,00.html “All wrong”, “Corrupt” and Creeds an abomination are not the same as “some problems” and the LDS know that. But they will soften it in order to not scare people off or to put the LDS church in a ‘better light’. Next - about becoming Gods. Notice the LDS response is to go down a rabbit hole, rather than addressing the comment. Instead they lead the person to believe that the source was unreliable, or written by someone who had something to gain (money) or a former Mormon with a grudge. The question itself isn’t even addressed (lying by omission). It also causes the person to think that they might be wrong and that the LDS don’t believe that, even though the LDS person knows they do. Finally, the invitation to meet with the missionaries. There is an assumption by many that these are people who know more about Mormonism than the average member and that isn’t true either. Most men and quite a few women serve LDS missions (I nearly did). They don’t have special knowledge. They also don’t tell you is the goal of those 6 discussions is to get you baptized Mormon and there is pressure put on you to read the Book of Mormon, pray about it, make commitments and convert. Those 6 discussions aren’t just a summary of LDS beliefs, they are the requirements for conversion and that is their goal. But they don’t tell you that, they make it sound like this is just a friendly way of talking to knowledgeable people about what the LDS believe. Also, there is the doctrine of ‘line upon line, precept upon precept’ or “milk before meat”, that coverts are only told doctrines when they are spiritually ready to hear them. The missionary discussions are the barest of milk. You learn one set of things in them, and then after you convert you start to learn the rest of LDS theology. Then after a year of faithful membership (sometimes more) you get to go to the LDS temple and learn the ‘meat’ doctrines and are sworn to secrecy (used to have to swear blood oaths). Your attitude is not prideful at all, in fact is a good one to have. Part of why I do this, is I believe in full disclose and the LDS do not tell the truth to outsiders about what they believe, usually under the idea of ‘milk before meat’. For Christians there is no reason not to tell the whole truth, even if it is someone who may not understand yet. Rather we help them understand rather than say they can’t know yet. I hope this helps and I pinged some other ex-Mormons who will probably tell you the same thing I have. I’m heading out of town in about 10minutes until tomorrow night, but will respond if you have any more questions when I get back. Also, I can provide sources for any of the teachings above. 75 posted on Sunday, October 02, 2011 1:10:47 PM by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see".) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies | Report Abuse] Pasted from

Sorry forgot to delete HTML tags... trying this again

Yes, Mormons really believe that stuff. Also, a few Mormons are truly ignorant of LDS teachings and history but many lie or dissemble in order to make the LDS church appear “Christian”. I am pasting another post I had written about LDS ‘lying for the Lord’ that has a conversation similar to ones I had when I was LDS. Hope this helps.

The LDS don’t do systematic theology. For years the closest thing was Bruce R. McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine”. Now that has been thrown under the bus because some of his statements are embarrassing to the LDS church even though they have not repudiated anything said in there and it was approved by the Prophet and Apostles and published by the main LDS publishing company (an LDS version of nihil obstat or imprimitur). The LDS use manuals, published every few years, on a rotation for Sunday School, Priesthood/Relief Society and their High School and College religion classes. They are also discouraged from researching on their own or reading old ‘primary sources’.

Sadly, they are spoon fed theology in a manner that keeps them from looking too deep. My ‘crime’ as it were was going beyond the manuals given to me and actually trying to make sense and research LDS history and doctrine in order to prove the ‘antis’ were lying.

As to why I lied about LDS beliefs (or dissembled), there is a constantly used phrase/idea that comes down from the leadership of “every member a missionary”. It means that every member is to try to convert people to Mormonism. Couple that with the other oftused meme of “don’t do anything that makes ‘the Church’ look bad” and you have an interesting combination. The “why” gets down to these.

It is easier to lie or omit things or twist words than it is to explain what the LDS really believe and risk losing a potential convert or have someone go away thinking less than glowing things about the LDS church. Every member is expected to find ‘investigators’ (people who would be interested in converting who take the missionary discussions - similar to RCIA). There is also a lot of people who hear things about beliefs but don’t know enough to know what the LDS are saying, that they use different meanings for terms, even though the LDS usually know that Christians mean different things.

A typical exchange could go like this...

non - LDS - “I have a lot of Mormon friends, and they are nice people, but don’t Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers?”

LDS - No! We don’t believe that at all! Jesus is the only begotten Son of God! Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and they said that all other churches had some problems and Joseph needed to start a Church that was the same as the one when Jesus Christ was on the Earth. Why don’t you come over for dinner and we will have the missionaries talk to you? There is a set of 6 discussions that they give that shows what we believe.

non-LDS - “Well, ok, but I read somewhere that Mormons believe they will become Gods”

LDS - “That was probably written by someone who has a grudge against the Church. They probably are one of the ones who gets paid to badmouth the Church or someone who couldn’t live by the principles of the Church so they left or they were offended by someone in their ward.

Ok, lets parse this. Notice how many times “the Church” is used. For the LDS it is all about “the Church”. LDS ‘testimonies’ often start out with “I know the Church is true”. Then there is the automatic denial that Jesus and Satan are brothers. We saw it on this a thread the other day even. Now, all LDS know that their church teaches Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers.

So why would you get a resounding “NO”? Because it makes their theology look silly. By stating “No” the LDS are lying to you, but they are thinking “Well they aren’t flesh brothers, just spirit brothers like we all are, Jesus is our Elder brother”. The other day an LDS came on one of these threads and stated “Jesus and Lucifer aren’t brothers, as if by Mary!”. Notice the subtlety of it. “As if by Mary” implying they aren’t physical brothers (which no one claimed). But they left out That Lucifer was the second born and Jesus was the firstborn of the spirit children. Next we come to what would appear to be a rebuttal to the claim Jesus and Satan are brothers. “Jesus is the only begotten Son of God!” what they are not telling you is that they mean it in a literal sense. Jesus and Satan are SPIRIT brothers (like all of us) but Jesus is God’s physical son, God came down, had sex with Mary and conceived Jesus. So it isn’t a rebuttal at all and the LDS know that. They are intentionally twisting words to make you think they don’t believe Jesus and Satan are Spirit brothers.

Next Phrase - “Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and they said that all other churches had some problems and Joseph needed to start a Church that was the same as the one when Jesus Christ was on the Earth.” This is referring to the “First Vision” (of which there are several contradictory accounts) and the Great Apostasy. The LDS will tone down things said about other Christians. In the first vision account, Smith isn’t told that other churches ‘had problems’ he was told “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt http://lds.org/library/display/0,4945,104-1-3-4,00.html

“All wrong”, “Corrupt” and Creeds an abomination are not the same as “some problems” and the LDS know that. But they will soften it in order to not scare people off or to put the LDS church in a ‘better light’.

Next - about becoming Gods. Notice the LDS response is to go down a rabbit hole, rather than addressing the comment. Instead they lead the person to believe that the source was unreliable, or written by someone who had something to gain (money) or a former Mormon with a grudge. The question itself isn’t even addressed (lying by omission). It also causes the person to think that they might be wrong and that the LDS don’t believe that, even though the LDS person knows they do.

Finally, the invitation to meet with the missionaries. There is an assumption by many that these are people who know more about Mormonism than the average member and that isn’t true either. Most men and quite a few women serve LDS missions (I nearly did). They don’t have special knowledge. They also don’t tell you is the goal of those 6 discussions is to get you baptized Mormon and there is pressure put on you to read the Book of Mormon, pray about it, make commitments and convert. Those 6 discussions aren’t just a summary of LDS beliefs, they are the requirements for conversion and that is their goal. But they don’t tell you that, they make it sound like this is just a friendly way of talking to knowledgeable people about what the LDS believe.

Also, there is the doctrine of ‘line upon line, precept upon precept’ or “milk before meat”, that coverts are only told doctrines when they are spiritually ready to hear them. The missionary discussions are the barest of milk. You learn one set of things in them, and then after you convert you start to learn the rest of LDS theology. Then after a year of faithful membership (sometimes more) you get to go to the LDS temple and learn the ‘meat’ doctrines and are sworn to secrecy (used to have to swear blood oaths).

Part of why I do this, is I believe in full disclose and the LDS do not tell the truth to outsiders about what they believe, usually under the idea of ‘milk before meat’. For Christians there is no reason not to tell the whole truth, even if it is someone who may not understand yet. Rather we help them understand rather than say they can’t know yet.

75 posted on Sunday, October 02, 2011 1:10:47 PM by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian “I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see”.) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies | Report Abuse] Pasted from

I am friends with a Mormon gal who wanted me to convert and we had a short discussion about just that. I ask her if Mormons seek to become gods. She was very up front and truthful with me and said, ‘yes.’ I stated that God says that there is only one God and there can not be any others. This includes ‘gods’ with a lower case ‘g.’ I told this is a fundamental truth that I live by and can not violate it. She understood and hasn’t tried to convert me again plus we are still friends.

She is probably one of the few Mormons who can probably be straight with me on Mormon theology, but I do see your point about omitting things, subtly changing the wording, or outright denying anything that could make them look bad. That’s part of human nature.

I think the whole starting point about what is wrong with Mormon theology is the starting point of who can and can’t be God. Moses taught that God can only be defined as a non-corporeal being beyond male and female that can only be at best a spirit that is beyond this universe and all of its dimensions. Christians decided to deify a Jewish rabbi who possibly overcame death through the ascension process. That changed the definition of what and who God is. (When mankind goes back to a closeness to God like Adam and Eve they will undergo their own individual ascension processes. Just because you overcome death and live forever doesn’t qualify you as God.) This started the slippery slope that would eventually result in the advent of Mormonism. “If Jesus can be God (or a god) so can I!” is the thinking.

One day in the not-too-distant future mankind will speak one language again and have only one God to look to. In the mean time we have to deal with people where they are, value them for who they are, see through their corny ideas by studying God’s instructions for life, and doing what we can to help those who are lost get back on track.

One time I had a Christian come up to me a try to convert as I was out for a walk. He tried to steamroller me with verse after verse from the New Testament and the Old. I asked enough questions that he became angry and yelled at me to leave! LOL! I’ll never forget that. The truth is much simpler than most realize, but human nature wants to complicate it all.

When I see people like Saundra who say this, that and the other about their religion I know its way out there, but it is still important to be patient, listen to them and what they have to say, ask them questions in a kind, simple, pointed, hard-hitting but respectful manner so that it makes them think. Sure, it might get them angry, but if you set an example of kindness and humility it usually will help to keep the lines of communication open with them. Later when they are ready they can come to me and ask questions. I just do my best to answer as completely and truthfully as possible.

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1. Choice seer	9. Voice crying/wilderness	17. People studied at feet of
2. Joseph and God partners	10. Has more to boast of	18. Smith's greatness
3. Brings purpose to life	11. Is meek and lowly	19. Gospel according to Joe
4. Did more than anyone	12. Is needed, foreordained	20. Superior intelligence
5. Is god to all	13. Not always a prophet	21. Praise to the man
6. Helped save world	14.Not armed	22. Knowledge of God from
7. Holds keys of authority	15. Related to Jesus	23. Greater than Isaiah
8. Was a Mason	16. Smith's consent needed	24. Is both Jew and Gentile