Replies

“Give the Scripture which contradicts what I posted.”

Answer:

Apparently you have refused to read my previous replies that are publicly posted for you and everyone else to see. Perhaps you have a selective reading blinder on?

... Again (er hem)

John 17: 15 Jesus said, “I pray NOT that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”

Jesus’ prayer is still in effect for us today. No rapture. No escape.

This contradicts EVERYTHING that you say about the so-called ‘rapture’. It is from the very sacred lips of our Saviour.

Moreover, I posted at length, the explanation of the inspired word HARPAZO (caught up). I gave the Scriptural examples and have included them below (please read).

In short, both Philip and this very same Paul (who wrote I Thes 4) were HARPAZO’d back in the first century.

Did either of them leave planet earth? ... Nooooooo.

Were either of them shot into outer space? ... Nooooooo.

Did they both continue on in their missionary journeys here on terra-firma earth after this HARPAZO experience? ... Yessssss.

So again, these scriptures below do indeed contradict your view of the so-called ‘rapture’, also.

Again, whatever you think that HARPAZO is, it is not enough to REVERSE the Cross of Christ in Daniel’s 70th Week to the Devil. That is an atrocious leap of faith to make.

I pray that you will do yourself a favour, and repent of your Dispensational sin.

I Thes 4: 17

“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

caught up = HARPAZO

This word derivation is used twelve other times in the KJV New Testament. Most of these uses have to do with the physical taking away of someone or something from another. Never do they disappear from sight.

Two other times this word is used it implies that the person at hand has disappeared from sight, however, neither time is either of the people actually shot off into outer space - never to return.

Example 1: Philip meets the eunuch and is HARPOZA’d out of sight, but really walks on earth in the Gaza strip afterwards. Proof text:

Acts 8: 39-40. “And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip , that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. BUT PHILIP WAS FOUND AT AZOTUS: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.”

Example 2: Paul speaks about the experience of being HARPAZO’d, but he is not sure if it is in the flesh or out of the flesh. Proof text:

II Cor 12: 3,4 “And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell : God knoweth ;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”

Suffice it to say, Paul continues on afterwards to complete his missionary journeys ON EARTH.

Therefore, using Scripture as our basis, it would be aberrant and sloppy to assign a shooting-off-into-outer-space type definition to the word HARPAZO in II Thes 4: 17.

Certainly, I would not be so careless as to REVERSE Jesus Christ for the Devil, just to satisfy my dogmatic apetite over it.

I advise all to proceed with the same caution because the Cross is at sake. In essence, Dispensationalism is a denial of Christ’s atonement.

Beside, Jesus Himself said:

John 17: 15 “I pray NOT that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”

Jesus’ prayer is still in effect for us today. No rapture. No escape.

I’m going to take compfort in His prayer.

In Christ Blessings, Amen.

“I pray NOT that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”

You make this too easy. People have the right to expect that you would know basic grammar before you post on this forum.

The verse says:

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Jesus is saying, "I pray, not for X, but for Y".

Look at the location of the word "not" in the verse. Note the difference if the verse said the following: "I pray -- that thou shouldest (not) take them out of the world". And also note, the verse does not say that at all, as those who deny the Rapture imply. In order for the verse to say that, the word "not" has to be moved over the three words "that thou shouldest" and placed later in the sentence.

Jesus, by saying what he is not praying for, is giving us a hint that He could pray for God to take us out of the world, as will happen at the Rapture as shown in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and John 14:2-3.

Also, instead of praying for that, Jesus prayed for something greater that includes the promise to take Christians out of the world at the Rapture, that being, "that thou shouldst keep them from the evil". If Christians are Raptured, would that keep them from the evil? Of course it would.

So, the Rapture does not contradict the prayer of Jesus at all.

But the prayer, to keep Christians from the evil, also applies to Christians' lives before the Rapture, and it will also apply to the tribulation saints who are converted after the Rapture. So, the prayer to "keep them from the evil", is much better than merely praying "that thou shouldst take them out of the world", which will happen at the rapture.

Here's an analogy that even the most experienced deniers of God's word can understand.

Solomon prayed for something greater than wealth, but also received wealth.

2 Chronicles 1:11:And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honor, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king:

2 Chronicles 1:12 Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, and wealth, and honour, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there any after thee have the like.

Solomon did "pray not" for riches. Did he receive riches? Yes.
Solomon did "pray not" for wealth. Did he receive wealth? Yes.
Solomon did "pray not" for honour. Did he receive honour? Yes.

Jesus did "pray not" for God to take Christians out of the world. But will they be taken out of the world at the Rapture? Of course.

Thus, the Rapture is perfectly fitting with John 17:15, and is not contradicted by that verse at all. The verse supports pre-trib doctrine. Just as wisdom included riches, wealth and honour, "keep them from the evil" includes the pretribulation rapture promise.

Those who use John 17:15 to argue against the Rapture, are showcasing why there will be heresies in the Church:

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Those who deny any part of what God has written are not Christians.

And, just to get you on the record and since you've already denied the 1 Thessalonians Rapture Scripture, are the following words of God true or false?

Matthew 24:26-51
Mark 13:21-37
Luke 17:20-37
Luke 21:20-36
John 14:2-3
Romans 5:9
1 Corinthians 15:50-58
Phil 3:20-21
1 Thes 1:9-10
1 Thes 2:19
1 Thes 3:13
1 Thes 4:13-5:11
2 Thes 1:5-10
2 Thes 2:1-12
2 Thes 3:6-15
Titus 2:12-13
1 Peter 2:12
Rev 3:7-22
1Thes 5:9
Rom 5:9
2Pet 2:9
1Thes 1:10
Joel 2:28-31
Mal 4:2
Zep 1:14-18

All of those Scriptures pertain to the Rapture. Are they true or are they false? Don't be afraid to stand by your original statement - if there isn't going to be a Rapture, go ahead and deny all that Scripture for the whole world to see.

What do ya say?

In addition to the links below . . . I'd like to note a couple of Scriptures that have acquired new umpth, to me re this issue:

Commentary FROM:

"THE RAPTURE ACCORDING TO THE APOSTLE PAUL: God's Guarantee of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture" by Dr Dennis McLelland

". . . The key word in God's magnificent promise in Revelation 3:10 is the word from. The original Greek transliteration is ek. Its Greek definition translates to English as the words from, or from out of.

The reference is found in Strong's Concordance #1537.

This is the key word that tells you that Jesus will keep you "out of" the tribulation.

If our Lord Jesus Christ wanted His beloved, blood bought, perfect [in His Blood] Bride to go through the tribulation, He would have instructed His angel Gabriel to tell John to use the Greek word dia (STrong's Concordance #1223) which means through the hour of testing in the English language. Instead, John used the Greek word ek--from; out of.

New International Version (Â©1984)
Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

New Living Translation (Â©2007)
"Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world.

English Standard Version (Â©2001)
Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

New American Standard Bible (Â©1995)
Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

International Standard Version (Â©2008)
Because you have obeyed my command to endure, I will keep you from the hour of testing that is coming to the whole world to test those living on the earth.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (Â©2010)
â€œBecause you have kept the word of my patience, I also shall keep you from the trial that is going to come over the entire inhabited world, to test the inhabitants of The Earth.â€

GOD'S WORDÂ® Translation (Â©1995)
Because you have obeyed my command to endure, I will keep you safe during the time of testing which is coming to the whole world to test those living on earth.

King James 2000 Bible (Â©2003)
Because you have kept the word of my patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

American King James Version
Because you have kept the word of my patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation, which shall come on all the world, to try them that dwell on the earth.

American Standard Version
Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Bible in Basic English
Because you have kept my word in quiet strength, I will keep you from the hour of testing which is coming on all the world, to put to the test those who are on earth.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will also keep thee from the hour of the temptation, which shall come upon the whole world to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Darby Bible Translation
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

English Revised Version
Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Webster's Bible Translation
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Weymouth New Testament
Because in spite of suffering you have guarded My word, I in turn will guard you from that hour of trial which is soon coming upon the whole world, to put to the test the inhabitants of the earth.

World English Bible
Because you kept my command to endure, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, which is to come on the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Young's Literal Translation
'Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

*********************************************

New International Version (Â©1984)
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones

New Living Translation (Â©2007)
Enoch, who lived in the seventh generation after Adam, prophesied about these people. He said, "Listen! The Lord is coming with countless thousands of his holy ones

English Standard Version (Â©2001)
It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, â€œBehold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones,

New American Standard Bible (Â©1995)
It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

International Standard Version (Â©2008)
Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied about these people when he said, "Look! The Lord has come with countless thousands of his holy ones.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (Â©2010)
But Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied to these as he said, â€œBehold, THE LORD JEHOVAH comes with myriads of his Holy Ones,

GOD'S WORDÂ® Translation (Â©1995)
Furthermore, Enoch, from the seventh generation after Adam, prophesied about them. He said, "The Lord has come with countless thousands of his holy angels.

King James 2000 Bible (Â©2003)
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints,

American King James Version
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints,

American Standard Version
And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones,

Bible in Basic English
The prophet Enoch, who was the seventh after Adam, said of these men, The Lord came with tens of thousands of his saints,

Douay-Rheims Bible
Now of these Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying: Behold, the Lord cometh with thousands of his saints,

Darby Bible Translation
And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied also as to these, saying, Behold, the Lord has come amidst his holy myriads,

English Revised Version
And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones,

Webster's Bible Translation
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Weymouth New Testament
It was also about these that Enoch, who belonged to the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "The Lord has come, attended by myriads of His people, to execute judgement upon all,

World English Bible
About these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones,

Young's Literal Translation
And prophesy also to these did the seventh from Adam -- Enoch -- saying, 'Lo, the Lord did come in His saintly myriads,

------------

New International Version (Â©1984)
to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

New Living Translation (Â©2007)
to execute judgment on the people of the world. He will convict every person of all the ungodly things they have done and for all the insults that ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

English Standard Version (Â©2001)
to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.â€

New American Standard Bible (Â©1995)
to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

International Standard Version (Â©2008)
He will judge all people and convict everyone of all the ungodly things that they have done in such an ungodly way, including all the harsh things that these ungodly sinners have said about him."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (Â©2010)
To do judgment on all and to reprove all souls, because of all the works of those who did wickedness, and because of all of the hard words which evil sinners have spoken.â€

GOD'S WORDÂ® Translation (Â©1995)
He has come to judge all these people. He has come to convict all these ungodly sinners for all the ungodly things they have done and all the harsh things they have said about him."

King James 2000 Bible (Â©2003)
To execute judgment upon all, and to convict all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

American King James Version
To execute judgment on all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

American Standard Version
to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their works of ungodliness which they have ungodly wrought, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Bible in Basic English
To be the judge of all, and to give a decision against all those whose lives are unpleasing to him, because of the evil acts which they have done, and because of all the hard things which sinners without fear of God have said against him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
To execute judgment upon all, and to reprove all the ungodly for all the works of their ungodliness, whereby they have done ungodly, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against God.

Darby Bible Translation
to execute judgment against all; and to convict all the ungodly of them of all their works of ungodliness, which they have wrought ungodlily, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

English Revised Version
to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their works of ungodliness which they have ungodly wrought, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Webster's Bible Translation
To execute judgment upon all, and to convict all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have impiously committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Weymouth New Testament
and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly deeds which in their ungodliness they have committed, and of all the hard words which they, ungodly sinners as they are, have spoken against Him."

World English Bible
to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their works of ungodliness which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

Young's Literal Translation
to do judgment against all, and to convict all their impious ones, concerning all their works of impiety that they did impiously, and concerning all the stiff things that speak against Him did impious sinners.'

-------------------------------------

Looks like the Bible manglers are at it again.

Three much more Biblical discussions by these 3 excellent Pastors/authors are here:

Chuck Missler:

1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAthXaYLPwI

2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsi-K2j4OSc

3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grGQrPywB84

4.

5.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQsgxsfqwSA

6.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVefyqX5hJ0

7.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl5NNC5HNA4

8.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A72-DKJVPnE

9.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2Zfs0JNjP4

10.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S7Pp5yOsug

11.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjIPTT_CPFo

12.

JD Faraq Calvary Chapel Hawaiiâ€”a Palestinian:

Why the Rapture of the Church Has To Happen Before the Seven Year Tribulation Pt 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrOg07PdJUM&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL19453602A5A420C7

PART 2:

[Canâ€™t find it]

PART 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgjZ5bHBek8&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL19453602A5A420C7

PART 4:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFGrzxO9Dgw&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL6F0F107973C136A3

PART 5:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKVM44BuuU8&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL194F2347D1716FFE

PART 6:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge5pjXCQhGQ&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL194F2347D1716FFE

Other msgs by JD Faraq:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=JD+FARAQ&oq=JD+FARAQ&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=237592l241915l0l242482l51l12l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0

Plus an excellent comparison here:

http://www.angelsonassignment.org/why_aoa.html

FIRST:

SECOND:

Welcome aboard, Iggles Phan.

Ain’t this religion forum great? Mocking, put downs, no real discussion, so-called theologians . . .

Thanks for your posts I have enjoyed them.

The prayer spoken in John 17:15 occurred before the Cross.

Nothing reverses what happened at the Cross. The Cross was Judgment of all sin. That is complete.

Nothing prevents Christ from catching up His Bride in the air when the time is determined by the Father.

This will occur regardless if some believers understand this doctrine or reject it.

If you wish to identify yourself with Israel and her blessings, then you may want to study her cursings because those would also follow those identifiable with Israel.

A believer in fellowship with Christ today has the opportunity to escape those cursings by remaining in fellowship with Him and bearing our own cross to receive proper rewards at the bema seat.

John 17: 15 Jesus said, “I pray NOT that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”

You have repeatedly used this verse to show there will be no rapture, but you are taking it out of context. Jesus is praying for his Disciples. Read the entire section.

John 17:12 says, “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

If Jesus was talking about everyone, then he meant we would all be saved except the man of perdition. In this instance he was praying for his Disciples only.

How interesting that you use the word HARPAZO (caught up) and try to attach a similar result each time it is used. You attempt to force the interpretation the rest of the verse on the meaning of that word in another verse.

I Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Notice in that verse where the person ends up?

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Philip ended up in a different place didn’t he?

II Cor 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Well, well, again the verse clearly indicates that although he was “caught up” the reason and end destination was different. Each time the word harpazo is used yet the end destination is different. Let’s make a comparison.

Let’s change the word to “traveled”. Each time the person “traveled” to a different place for a different purpose. Compare that to each time you travel. Each time you travel to a different destination but return home. Then you decide to travel to a different place to establish a home in a different state. By your example because we used the word “traveled” we should assume that you will return back to your original home? Would that make sense to you?

Now let’s look at that verse in Thessalonians again.

I Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. You did see the ”ever be with the Lord” in there right? When you traveled that last time was it to ever be in your new home? Or should we assume that because you used the same word to get there that you do not mean that you have really changed your residence? Your reasoning looks more like the flim flam used by the RCC to deceive the people.

where to begin with this? It is by dispensationalism that you even KNOW about the Atonement of Christ, they BOdy of Christ, the forming of the Church the body of Christ, the grace of God, the gospel of your salvation, the fulness of the Gentiles being brought in, and the ending of this age of grace. When it will occur and why. You also learn by dispensationalism, that the Body of Christ has been promised BY GOD to be saved from HIS WRATH.(Rom. 5:9). THere is no reason for us to have endure His wrath being poured out on mankind (the Tribulation). We have been reconciled to Him by the blood of Christ. The finished work of Christ. 2 Cor. 5:14-21.

Why would He save us and then pour out His wrath and expect us to endure to the end? You need to put on your common sense cap.

What do you think He is going to do? Take us OUT of the Body of Christ, and OUT of our spiritual seating in heavenly places in Christ, and make us endure to the end? For What? To place us BACK INTO the Body of Christ and re-seat us in heavenly places in CHrist? ONce again, use your common sense. And GOd's word of truth.