Why I do not believe in the 'Rapture'

[Iggles Phan]

My problem with the 'Rapture' (pre-millenial; pre-tribulation) teaching is that it forces its adherents to actually REVERSE the Person of Jesus Christ to the Devil.

That's correct.

In the 'Rapture' (or Dispensational) scheme the believer is asked to take the Person of Daniel's 70th Week (Who is Jesus Christ at the Cross) described in Chapter 9, verse 27a:

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, ..."

... and reverse this 'he' to mean a 'future Antichrist'.

Are you confused?

Is this Jesus Christ or Antichrist?

1. The Historic View.

This view is typified by the 1599 Geneva Bible notes. These are the notes of John Calvin, Miles Coverdale, and John Knox to name a few.

1599 Geneva Bible Notes on Daniel 9:27a:

"By the preaching of the gospel he confirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles. Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection."

It's pretty clear that the Reformers believed that Christ was the Person of Daniel's Great 70th Week.

2. The Modernist View (Dispensational).

In contrast however, compare this historic view to the Dispensational view typified in the Ryrie Study Notes (1978). Look who the modernists assign to this very same Person in Daniel 9:27a:

"The prince of verse 26, the Antichrist previously introduced in 7:8, 24-26, who will make a pact with many (of the Jewish people) at the beginning of the tribulation period. But in the middle of the week (i.e., 3 1/2 years later) Antichrist will break his covenant and desecrate the Temple by demanding worship of himself in it."

The difference couldn't be farther apart.

Historic Christianity says that Jesus fulfilled the 70th week AT THE CROSS, but Rapture Christianity (Dispensationalism) says that the Devil fulfills it in a 're-built' temple.

Therefore, Dispensationalism is no less than a frontal assault on the Cross of Christ. It reverses Jesus Christ to the Devil. It is malicious and a pernicious doctrine.

Remember, this Dispensational view was NEVER known until 1830. That's why it is a Modernist view. It was invented by JN Darby and popularized by CI Scofield, two con-men to Christianity.

In the 20th century, carpetbaggers such as Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jack (and Rexella) Van Impe, John Hagee and others have made fame and fortune off of this con game. They have marketed this 'Rapture' theology like a cheap box of laundry detergent on TV and radio, and with videos and books.

My hope and prayer is that the Church starts to wake up out of its slumber and starts challenging its pastors, ministries, and teachers. The Cross of Christ is at stake here!

For the Glory of Christ Jesus. Amen.

[Quix]

UNMITIGATED REPLACEMENTARIAN NONSENSE.

---

Looks like the Bible manglers are at it again.

Three much more Biblical discussions by these 3 excellent Pastors/authors are here:

Chuck Missler:

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAthXaYLPwI

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsi-K2j4OSc

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grGQrPywB84

4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeXFgC3zrPU

5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQsgxsfqwSA

6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVefyqX5hJ0

7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl5NNC5HNA4

8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A72-DKJVPnE

9. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2Zfs0JNjP4

10. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S7Pp5yOsug

11. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjIPTT_CPFo

12. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_dwKtDzugI

JD Faraq Calvary Chapel Hawaii—a Palestinian:

Why the Rapture of the Church Has To Happen Before the Seven Year Tribulation Pt 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrOg07PdJUM&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL19453602A5A420C7

PART 2:

[Can’t find it]

PART 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgjZ5bHBek8&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL19453602A5A420C7

PART 4:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFGrzxO9Dgw&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL6F0F107973C136A3

PART 5:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKVM44BuuU8&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL194F2347D1716FFE

PART 6:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge5pjXCQhGQ&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL194F2347D1716FFE

UNNUMBERED:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eDmfrxqen0&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL194F2347D1716FFE

Other msgs by JD Faraq:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=JD+FARAQ&oq=JD+FARAQ&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=237592l241915l0l242482l51l12l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0

Plus an excellent comparison here:

http://www.angelsonassignment.org/why_aoa.html

[Quix]

Isn’t I Thess 4 in your Bible?

[Quix]

We have documente that’s also a false assertion.

We have documented such a Biblical belief back to the early church.

We realize that REPLACEMENTARIANS tend to be disinclined to believe facts, however—even Biblical facts.

[Quix]

ATS has a thread factually documenting Queen Elizabeth II’s lineage all the way back to Julia Caeser—sister of Julius.

Interesting in view of Biblical prophecies about the Roman Empire and the END TIMES satanic globalist government.

[ModelBreaker]

“I’m a Catholic. I never understood why anybody would think that this is going to happen in the future when it was already fulfilled in antiquity. It also goes with Christ’s own prediction of the same events. Daniel and Jesus predict the same event that happened in about 70 AD. That’s amazing, and it’s a cause for great wonder. Why in the world do we need to project that into some imaginary future when we have the glory of the historical proof of prophecy?”

Because that would mean the millenial reign began in 70 AD. Thus, after the sack of Jerusalem in 70 AD, Jesus would defeat all the armies of the earth without raising a sweat on the plains of Meggido, Christ would then rule the Earth for the 1,000 years along with the martyrs—during which period Satan will be bound up (a lot of Catholics held that view in 1,000 AD). Look around you for the past 2,000 Years or so. Anything you see look remotely like a Meggido or the millenial reign or the absence of Satan?

I understand the argument that, really, Revelation was written before the destruction of the temple and that John was referring to that event and that Nero was the Antichrist. With no evidence of the next 2,000 years, I think it has a decent case to be made for it. But that still leaves the plains of Meggido, the Millenial reign with no Satan, judgment, and the creation of the new earth to happen after 70 A.D.

But either we throw out Revelation entirely by discarding it as a meaningless metaphor, decide we have no idea whatsoever what John meant, or we have to square it’s prophecy against reality. The tribulation happened in 70 AD position doesn’t do a very good job of squaring with post-70 AD reality.

I’m not ready to toss much of Revelation as a meaningless metaphor—prophecy that has no impact if you will. So that leaves as a significant possibility that we do not understand Revelation at all. Both pre and post millenial positions may turn out to be as wrong as the Jewish interpretion of scripture about how things were going to go when the Messiah showed up.

So we do the best we can and await His return.

[Quix]

AMEN!

[The Theophilus]

The phrase “abomination of desolation” refers to Matthew 24:15: “So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand.” This is referring to Daniel 9:27,

I so wish that you people would take your heads out of the Dysfunctionalism sand and read the Bible instead of fiction writers such as as Lindsey and LaHaye. How do you not know that the Matthew 24:15 doesn't refer to Daniel 11:31 where pretty much everyone understands that the "abomination that makes desolate" is none other than Antiochus Epiphanes? Was he the "anti-Christ"?

Then you have Daniel 12:11 which says that "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination that makes desolate set up..." Now what is being referenced here? Antiochus or the Roman armies pre 70AD where in both cases the daily sacrifices ceased?

I vote for the latter because, while you love to point to Matthew 24:15, your ilk refuses to read Luke 21:20 which is Luke's rendering of our LORD's message and clearly indicates that the Messiah was referring to the Roman Armies of "prince" Titus, son of Vespasian, who fulfilled Matthew 24:15/Luke 21:20 perfectly.

In every case of an "abomination that makes desolate" the reference is to an army, not to a single man. It is the LaHaye types that throw away Biblical precedent and gratuitously replace the Scriptures with their own vain fantasies to sell more books and videos.

Furthermore, there is talk of a Temple that was indeed there prior to 70AD, you require one to be constructed in the future when no one but a few thousand American Zionist Gentiles care to have one - and the government of Israel won't allow one to be built, let alone what a billion plus Muslims have to say on the matter. Facts like that are no obstacles to a good camp fire story.

The passage you refer to in Matthew is immediately followed by instructions to "flee to the hills of Judea" which only make sense in a very local context to the disciples and early Christians living in and about Jerusalem. Indeed, Josephus, in Wars, Book 6, chapter 6 describes the actual actions of the Roman army in terms that positively demonstrates that Mt 24:15 was fulfilled in 70AD.

Also conveniently forgotten is that only in 1 and 2 John does the Apostle speak of an Antichrist, and he said that many have already come at the time of his writing. This fallacious attempt to rob our LORD of prophecies concerning Him and plant them on some fictitious future "Anti Christ" ala Tim LaHaye/Jerry Jenkins is why many people won't listen to Christians for the Gospel because you folks are so ready to lie and deceive folks about future events now.

[Quix]

Joya

NEW TEMPLE PING

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFnckQrgO7s

[Not gonna take it anymore]

I have never understood the modern Rapture theory. And I was a Protestant but not fundamentalist or evangelical before I became Catholic.

It’s like, some people are going to be snatched up and wait in some ivory tower while their brothers and sisters are being tormented.

Does that make sense from a loving God? We will be judged, we will all face tribulation. And there are martyrs now who face extreme tribulation. Just look around the world.

Are we laughing? /s

[Quix]

[Quix]

[ColdSteelTalon]

Please read my post carefully. I am not looking for persecution. Doesn't the Bible say somewhere that we Christians are not appointed to wrath?

Your tone is not conducive to instruction. You are a debater looking for a fight where there is none.

I leave myself open to a different viewpoint. You may be right and you may be wrong. I may be wright and I may be wrong.

In the end I am going to heaven because I have placed my faith in Jesus Christ, and not because I subscribe to a particular interpretation of scripture.

And where do you get the idea that I am an anti-semite? I am from the tribe of Levi my friend. I can tell you have an angry spirit especially because you read things into my question that simply aren't there...

[reed13]

Couldn’t 4:15’s “who are left till the coming of the Lord” refer to those left after the tribulation when Jesus returns? I’m only aware of one return and that is at the Revelations 18/19 and Matthew 24. So doesn’t 4:15 refer to that?

I’ve no investment in rapture discussions as I’m a firm believer in Matthew 24:36 and 24:42....I’m never going to know the time nor am I supposed to.

But Matthew sure seems to put any taking post tribulation as I read chapter 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” And those are HIS words.

[Quix]

WELL PUT.

THX.

[aruanan]

Remember, this Dispensational view was NEVER known until 1830.

And it never appears anywhere in the New Testament. But arguing with a pre-trib rapturist is like arguing with a cross between a watermelon seed and a Jehovah's Witness. Every time you pin them down, they'll squirt off in some other direction.

[reed13]

Thanks for that - I had been looking for I John 2:27 previously and forgotten where it was.

[ColdSteelTalon]

There are a lot of angry people on this thread thats for sure...

[Cvengr]

Perhaps a serious student of Scripture will go back and understand eschatology a little more than belittling those who have far greater insights than this article purports.

The Rapture is when Christ Jesus fetches His Bride.

The antiChrist performing the abomination that makes desolate is far from the completion of things to come, but those who slip and even confuse it as such for even a brief moment, telegraph scarred thinking which had been subject to the father of lies.

Dispensationalism is years more advanced in spiritual growth than amillenial or postmillenial confusions, but those who reject it aren’t getting away with anything. They simply leave many a reward predestined for them on the table, never to be granted at the bema seat for their refusal to accept His Providence.

[Cvengr]

Every time God speaks about His Temple in Scripture, it remains a place that HE chooses.

What has He chosen to be the Temple, His dwelling place today?

If that ceases to be His dwelling place, then what would be its replacement and why?

[CynicalBear]

Time is getting short for Satan and he will be lashing out more intensely as time gets nearer. He knows those who have put their full trust in Jesus will be leaving soon and he doesn’t like it.