Posted on 11/18/2011 6:13:09 AM PST by Alex Murphy
Next Thursday, as the rest of us tuck into our turkey feasts, hundreds of needy families in Southern California will open "Boxes of Love." Delivered by several churches led by Pacific Crossroads in Santa Monica, Calif., the boxes contain ingredients for a Thanksgiving meal for six. They allow impoverished families to skip food lines and neighborhood pantries and enjoy the holiday in their own homes.
What's unusual about the Pacific Crossroads congregation—and what underpins efforts such as Boxes of Love—is its theologically conservative raison d'être. A member church of the Presbyterian Church in America, Pacific Crossroads is committed to Reformation doctrines such as total depravity (every person is born sinful) and limited atonement (salvation is available only to the elect). These beliefs are typically regarded as ugly and inhumane by American culturati. Yet the church's pastor, Rankin Wilbourne, is happy to pepper his sermons with references to Bono and "Jersey Shore," and the church has grown to around 1,500 members from 500 in three years.
[SNIP]
And so in a city more often associated with Calvin Klein, John Calvin's teachings provide a basis for hope. In his commentary on II Corinthians 8, the 16th-century Swiss theologian connected Christians' assurance of salvation with their freedom to give to the poor:
"What makes us more close-handed than we ought to be is when we look too carefully, and too far forward, in contemplating the dangers that may occur—when we are excessively cautious and careful—when we calculate too narrowly what we will require during our whole life, or, in fine, how much we lose when the smallest portion is taken away. The man that depends upon the blessing of the Lord has his mind set free from these trammels and has, at the same time, his hands opened for beneficence."
(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...
Some logic.
If a theological issue is not clearly taught from scripture, it should NOT be taught by man.
We should speak confidently when scripture speaks, and go no farther than scripture does.
You can err on either side (a half truth, or a addition). So one MUST take the WHOLE counsel of scripture. You cannot just ignore verses. If you can’t make then reconcile each other then the fault is NOT with scripture, it’s with the construct you are trying to apply. This is why Calvinism is wrong. It does NOT reconcile scripture, it picks/chooses a set.
Half a truth is a whole lie. God does NOT have pleasure in the death of the wicked. He has NOT determined someone to hell. He is blameless. So how do we reconcile the scriptures? State them and QUIT trying to make some “points” to construct on top of them.
Elected as in chose a path of life between Jacob and Esau.
This does NOT imply salvation.
One MIGHT be elected for many things.
ELECTION is NOT EQUAL to Salvation!
God ELECTED Israel as nation! Are all in Israel to be saved?
No one who clings to a biblical perspective of rescue looks at this matter as win/lose issue. We are simply trying (because we are animated to do so, and directed to follow it through) to present the Scriptural story of salvation. If someone responds, the way Lydia did in Acts 16 ("...the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.") then we are happy. But, this is not a contest.
But according to point 4, Irresistible Grace, why bother? It has been predetermined that they will be saved or not, no action or inaction by man can change that, right? If this Church wasn't handing out Thanksgiving baskets (and slapping themselves on the back for doing so), the lost that will be saved are still going to be saved...at least according to Calvin.
This happened BEFORE the foundation of the world. It was God's PLAN for MANKIND that was predestined and foreknown, not the individual conformity to the plan. He predestined that all of new race of Adam who accept Jesus Christ should be holy and without blame before him in love. All are called and chosen to become holy before God in love if they want to accept God's Plan, but only those who meet God's conditions will be accepted: Faith in what God has given man to believe for righteousness throughout the ages. From Genesis to Revelation. From Time Past to But Now to the Ages to Come. It all looks forward or back to Jesus Christ and the Cross. And it is the Cross that, no matter what age particular men lived in, was the goal of His perfect predestinated and foreknown plan for mankind. From before the foundation of the world.
As was said, God is not willing that any should perish, (2 Peter). So how can Eph 1:4,5 be true and 2 Peter?
Because God CHOSE and Predestined EVERYONE to be saved, but some are NOT willing. God allows this. He could overrule, but he allow humans to have free will.
Read Romans Chapter 1 — it shows that God wants sinners to repent, and will struggle with them for a long time, but will finally give up and let them have their will.
How could God tell us to do something that the unsaved cannot do? (i.e. repent)?
God is NOT like man, He can see, and know something has happened and NOT be the cause of it. Knowledge is NOT CAUSATION when it comes to God.
Mankind has Free Will — God has absolute power — Calvinism (5 point) is an attempt to explain God’s plan with the reasoning of man. However, God is not bound to time and causation like man is. This is the failing of Calvinism - assuming that God conforms to the rules of the universe HE CREATED!!
Because God may intend someone to be saved as a result of another's action.
I was saved as a result of hearing the Word of God. The Holy Spirit gifted me with faith as a result of someone preaching it.
God led both one to preach and another to be saved.
It was His plan that was predestinated and foreknown. Rom. 8:30 also. His foreknown PLAN was that He would call, justify, and glorify all who accepted His plan. That they would be conformed to the image of His Son.
Nothing else makes sense. "...Who would have ALL men to be saved..." .
""we pray you in God's stead, be ye reconciled to God."
"Preach the word, be instant in season, out of season..."
And the opposite is also true: "For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"
At the same time that God presents His plan, He also knows who "will" or "will not" accept His terms.
God chose and predestined that everyone who would be conformed to His Plan for Mankind would be saved and not perish, but, like you said, some are not willing to be conformed to His plan. MY OPINION ONLY. AND NOT SET IN STONE, OBVIOUSLY...;)
And the passage goes on to state that it does not depend of man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.(v.16). Not just "Israel's" desire or effort, but "man's" in general. To further the point, Paul says God hardens or has mercy on whom He wills.
No, not all Israel will be saved; only those God destines for salvation and gifts with faith.
Calvinist (reformed) doctrine acknowledges ALL scripture.
Christ did indeed die for all. HOWEVER the knowledge of Him is given by the Father. Remember when Jesus asked his desciples “who do you say I am?” and Peter said “you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God”? Then Jesus says “blessed are you, Peter, for this knowledge was not given to you by man, but by my father in heaven”.
Also let me ask you what “choice” the Pharaoh had during the exodus. God “hardened” his heart. BTW Paul also addresses this very thing in Romans 9.
We are “dead” in our trespasses and slaves to our own sin. What freedom does a dead man/slave have? All of us deserve punishment, but some are set free. That is the point when “free will” comes into existence.
And this does not nullify the great commission. Picture Christians as workers in the field. They sow seeds without knowledge of which seeds will grow and which won’t. God takes it from there! The great commission is our act of obedience and worship rather than an effort to save. Only God saves.
Yes it discusses TRIBES but it also refers to believers in general stating “not all are Israel who are of Israel”.
This is interpreted as “spiritual” children of Abraham. Originally the people of Israel and the “spiritual” Israel were the same thing... that is until God “grafted-in” the gentiles to His salvation.
The problem with that argument, Jemian, is that no one comes to that point unless God reveals Himself to that person. We are incapable of saving ourselves just as a prisoner is incapable of saving himself.
I’m a little hazy on the point you’re trying to make so I’ll give it my best shot...
I think you’re saying that we have the choice all along but since God is timeless, He knew what we’d choose so he “predestined” us...
The problem with that viewpoint (if that’s your viewpoint) is that there’s no scripture to back it up.
There is, however, a great deal of scripture to back up predestination.
“This happened BEFORE the foundation of the world.”
What is “this”?
That is the problem. You read Calvin into the text, rather than read the text. What does it SAY?
“3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.”
Please notice it does NOT say God chose us to be justified. It says he “has blessed us in Christ” and “even as he chose us in him” that what? “we should be holy and blameless before him”
Please do not edit the words “in Christ” out of the text. We are chosen, not as individuals, but IN CHRIST. God has ordained, from before the earth was created, that those “IN CHRIST” should be holy and blameless.
Corporate election. We are one of God’s chosen people if we are IN CHRIST. Those who believe are placed in Christ - as Paul writes a short time later, “In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”
IN CHRIST. Two of the most important words in the New Testament, and not words to be deleted by Calvin.
Predestination is totally biblical, but Calvin screwed up WHO is predestined, and WHAT they are predestined for.
WHO = those in Christ
WHAT = to be conformed to the image of Christ
And how are we placed IN CHRIST?
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit...”
When YOU HEARD...AND BELIEVED.
Subject. Verb. When the subject does the verb, they are placed in Christ, sealed with the Holy Spirit.
The letter is written to the saints (1:1), not all mankind. When Paul says "he chose us" the "us" refers to the saints (1:1), not all mankind.
I'm not sure I get your point. This passage seems clear that God decided to adopt the saints through Christ before the foundation of the world.
There's no reading of Calvin, Augustine, Luther or anyone else into the text. I've never read any one of their thoughts on the passage. However, I am reading what Paul said.
I like the way you put that.
“Paul is clearly saying that God elected Esau [Jacob intended] in the womb.”
The subject of Romans 9 starts in the first verse:
“1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.”
Paul is about to discuss, NOT INDIVIDUALS, but the Jews as a whole.
“6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.”
God’s purpose in selecting and thus electing the Jews is not defeated. It is not defeated because we Gentiles are also the children of Abraham - not by flesh, but by promise. We Gentiles are also the children of Abraham, if we believe.
Remember, Paul had already written
“The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.”
So Paul tells the Jews at Rome that the promise to the Jews did NOT fail, but that it is being fulfilled. Not thru the inheritance of the flesh - being born a child of the Jews - but by being a descendent of Abraham in faith.
And is God unjust in deciding to do so?
No. God can determine who to call his own. He can call the children of Jacob his own, or Esau - and God makes that choice. Paul tells the Jews that God has chosen to save those who believe. “This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.”
Remember, in chapter 4 he also wrote:
“16That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all...”
After writing more about God’s right to save those he wishes, Paul writes:
30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written,
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
This is not about saving individuals, but about saving those who believe. As Paul goes on to explain in chapter 10:
“10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
In chapter 11, he discusses the remnant of the Jews.
But in chapters 9 & 10, he explains that God has chosen to save those who believe:
“1Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” - Romans 10
God did not reject Esau as an individual. As an individual, God blessed Esau greatly. But the tribe of Esau was not the Chosen People. God had that right, to decide who his chosen people would be. And that choice extends, according to Paul, to those Gentiles who believe.
Again, as always, it comes down to this - do you believe God, when God confronts you? But YOU must believe.
Subject. Verb. The subject does the verb. The subject does NOT have the verb done to him.
“6But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7or “’Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
The lie of Calvin is that Calvin does not understand subject/verb. In hundreds of verses, we are commanded to believe.
“30Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.” - Acts 16
They do not rebuke the jailer, or ask him who he thinks he is to do anything that might save him, but reply “Believe...and you will be saved”.
Subject. Verb. Simple enough for a caveman, but too complex for Calvinistic theologians.
“What freedom does a dead man/slave have?”
If a slave is offered freedom, can he accept? If a sick man is offered healing, can he accept?
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. 17And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
20And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” - Luke 4
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