Posted on 11/08/2011 6:51:40 AM PST by greyfoxx39
News Int'l - Dateline 11/7/11 - SLC Utah: Mormon Church Officials Release Extensive List Of Church Facilities Opening Their Doors for Thanksgiving Meals for Homeless and Needy...
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I AVOIDED calling you a liar, you jumped to that conclusion by yourself. I simply said I find your hearsay accounts of people being billed for tithing unbelievable. I have no idea if you made it all up yourself or if you are just passing on lies you’ve been lead to believe and frankly I don’t care.
Just what is the form number a clerk would need to know to order a pack of blank tithing bills from Salt Lake?
LOL, just ignore the actual facts you yourself posted and base you whole claim on the name the meeting is called. Is that the best you got? Oh, yes, it is.
They are only compelled by their personal convictions. Would you rather people be hypocrites and not act in harmony with their beliefs?
Sorry, I just do not know what you mean by this statement: Just what is the form number a clerk would need to know to order a pack of blank tithing bills from Salt Lake?
Yup, just as I said, in a financial matter where members were to give to the church, Peter held them accountable as Gods representative. You thinking that tithing settlement is between men only is the same kind of thinking that lead Ananias and Sapphira to think they could get away with what they tried.
It goes on...
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Seems like a far harsher and far more permanent consequence than not being able to get a temple recommend until you repent. Far more intimidating to the other members too wouldn’t you say.
I have a close college friend of many deacdes who lives nearby who is a Mormon in high standing. He has been tasked in past days to encourage members around here to ‘pay their tithes’ and has in fact sent out copies of the previous years tithing statements in an effrot to extract the ‘tithes due’. He receives his instructions and directions for this ‘work’ from Salt Lake, for your information.
Let's discuss the fact that unless a member has paid his tithing in an amount satisfactory to his bishop, he will be refused a "Temple Recommend"...and thus in mormon belief unable to fulfill his "worthiness" requirement to reach "exaltation" by taking part in man made temple covenants. He is then found to not be satisfactory to God.
Mormons can defend the tithing practices of the sect until the cows come home, but IMO if one is deprived of salvation because his offering does not satisfy a MAN, there is a clear indication that the mormon church has taken the Biblical view of tithing and totally corrupted it.
"Didn’t a certain husband and wife 1have to account to Peter for certain financial dealings? Yes, they did, and 2when they lied to Peter about it they were both struck dead. If you want to accuse anybody of coercion, perhaps Peter should be your target." Grig
Your problem is mischaracterization:
1. The husband and wife were not required to account --in the context of the thread discussion on forced tithing to get a temple recommend-- and in fact Peter's statement to Ananias shows the money was volunteered as a gift, but with an embedded lie of omission seeking false glory, which was instantly evident to The Holy Spirit
2. The couple were struck dead not for lying to Peter but for lying to the Holy Spirit. Ananias and Sapphira were seeking to deceive the early church by using/copying Holy Spirit inspiration parsed to seek their self-aggrandizement. Having sold the land which belong to them to start with, they faked their 'gift' to the collection plate, which would open the door for false piety to enter the Holy Spirit directed early ecclesia (the church) and taint the body with deceit which would then be something Satan could use to discredit the whole body of believers.
For a strong clue that this meaning from the passage is accurate, read what happened in the ecclesia when these two deceivers were exposed, ied, and the news broadcast among the believers and those hearing of the story.
BTW, why do you seek to impugn Peter over the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira? And you should finally note that what the passage is addressing was not and had nothing to do with tithing. Those giving of their means were doing so under inspiration from the Holy Spirit, not by directive from the Apostles.
From people who don’t like seeing the church getting the blessings of living the law of tithing. It takes nothing away from them at all, but they are overflowing with envy and contempt over how financially sound the church is.
Sure, but don’t measure my level of sincerity by how much I agree or disagree with what you say. That isn’t valid.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Sorry, I had read post #79 as an invitation. Should have known better ...
I had an altogether differen experience from RinaseaofDs. Of course, I was raised in the sect in a predominately mormon community. I personally knew of child molesters (mormon teacher), drunks, wife beaters, adulterers and cheats. My FIL finally stopped renting equipment to a bishop because the bishop cheated him. Not to mention the old guys who would drive 15 miles to meet for coffee and smokes.
The most recent example of mormonism happened right here in AZ.
Mormon Church Denies Prior Knowledge of Susan Brock Affair
That is a totally fallacious attempt to project onto others "envy and contempt" by a sect that is demanding to be seen as "Christian" when its very foundation was anti-Christian.
There is certainly no ENVY by Christians of mormonism's worship of the dollar...."Matthew 19:21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
I find it very telling that mormons boast of their corporation's finances as though that were a measure of following Christ.
What is wrong with encouraging somebody to keep a commandment of God? Reminding the members that tithing settlement is coming up and providing them with a list of the donations they have made over the year is standard operating procedure. Nowhere does the list specify how much those donations should be, it is just a factual listing of what I have donated. I’m the only one who can look at that list and tell if I’ve paid a full tithe or not.
How can I honestly tell the Bishop that the records concerning what I gave are correct if I don’t have a chance to review what those records say? Why try to make a simple matter of good bookkeeping into something sinister?
It is no mans business what your tithes/offerings/alms are.
Why are members reminded to tithe, if it is such an important part of lds.
Can you source the commandment that says you are required to tithe?
The bottom line is that lds revolve their tithing/giving around what some guy says should happen and how if you don’t tithe you are unworthy, where as Christian tithing revolves around God and worship.
1. Peter required them to account for their actions and they lied to him. They didn’t say to Peter, ‘It’s my own business what I give and what I keep’ because they knew that wasn’t the deal. They didn’t go ‘Mind your own business Peter’ because they knew that it was his business. They both accepted his authority to ask such questions of them. By lying they showed they knew they had done something wrong in keeping part back, and that Peter was the authority figure they had to fool. Peter clearly shows in his actions that the expectation was that the whole amount would be turned over.
Now Peter’s statement to Ananias says that Ananias had full control over the money he got from the sale, IE: he could not blame somebody else for the full amount not being given. If this was a voluntary gift as you portray it and not a prerequisite for anything, then there was no reason for him to try and make Peter think it was the full amount of the sale.
2. They lied to the Holy Spirit by lying to Peter who was called of God to do this work.
And I do not seek to impugn Peter over their deaths, I’m pointing out that accounting to somebody called of God over what one has given to the church is not unBiblical.
Now there is a lot of detail lacking in Acts 4-5 over why they were doing this, how it started, how it was run etc. You’ve made certain assumptions about that but they are not assumptions I would agree with.
We believe that those early Christians were living a form of the United Order. That this was an organized community ran in a specific way by the apostles. Members of the community entered it by selling what they had and turning the whole of the proceeds over to the apostles who were the organizers of it. This couple held part back, contrary to what was required to enter the community, and Peter rightfully held them to account for it.
Tithing is a lesser law to prepare people to live the United Order so in that sense the passage is very relevant from our POV.
Well if you can, provide some other reasonable and believable explanation of why my donating my own money to my church and having a chat once a year with my Bishop about it is of any concern to people like you. Also try to explain all the consternation over the church supposedly ‘pulling in billions’. Really, you sound like a bunch of class envy lefties at times.
When God calls a man to be Bishop, it becomes part of his duty to administer tithing for his ward.
Members are reminded and encouraged to keep all the commandments BECAUSE they are important. Do you really thing that being silent about important things will result in more people faithfully doing those things you never talk about?
Malachi 3
8 ¶Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts.
D&C 119
4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them...
The bottom line for us is that tithing revolves around obedience to the commandments of God, to whom we owe EVERYTHING we have, faith in his promises, and a love for the things of God more than the things of the world.
You manage to miss the obvious.
They didn't HAVE to 'give to the church'.
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