Posted on 10/31/2011 10:27:17 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
It turns out that criticizing Joel Osteen ruffles feathers. Perhaps this shouldn't surprise. His congregation is more than forty-thousand strong, his sermons air worldwide, and his book sales are stratospheric. He's got more than a few fans available to take offense at someone holding his feet to the fire.
In response to my piece Friday, “The insufferable Joel Osteen,” several people said that I was “judging” Osteen, which is a considerable no-no. I was told I should be ashamed and that I should apologize.
But not so fast.
Is saying that a man is wrong “judging” him? “Judge not, that you be not judged,” said Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 7.1). But was the Lord saying that we should suspend our critical faculties? Was he saying that we should not correct others, an action that necessitates judging whether something is right or wrong? I don’t see how that’s possible since Paul directly tells Timothy to “[R]eprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching” (2 Tim. 4.2). It’s safe to say that Christ and his foremost apostle are singing from the same hymnal. Perhaps this all a bit more nuanced than not voicing a negative opinion about what another Christian says.
Importantly, I was not judging Osteen in the sense of identifying and condemning him for his sins, let alone calling his salvation into question. I was identifying an egregious theological error (equating Mormonism and Christian belief) and saying that he was not fit for his current job, points that are at least arguable if not self-evident. Since Paul clearly tells us that a minister of the gospel needs to have his doctrinal ducks in a row, this error seems like a big deal.
“He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke [there's that word again] those who contradict it” (Tit. 1.9).
Osteen flunks the test. He said that Mormons believe the same “core” teachings that Christians do. By any reading of their doctrinal statements or history, they clearly do not. Mormons follow another faith altogether at best or are at worst a new spin on the ancient heresy of Arianism (teaching that Jesus is a created being, something that Mormons confess). For Osteen to get this wrong is to be either negligent or ignorant — neither of which are okay for a man in his position.
Rebuking Osteen for making such an error is hardly an error unto itself. Is he not responsible for his pronouncements, accountable for what he says? Equating Mormonism and orthodox Christianity is wrong and reproachful. He deserves to have people call him on it.
If this were any other area of life, you can be sure we’d apply a different standard. Had Osteen, for example, suggested that taxes be increased (or lowered), that Occupy Wall Street protesters are justified (or not), or that Steve Jobs was the greatest (or most overrated) innovator of the last century, hackles and howls would rise from one quarter or another — and no one would suggest it was wrong to criticize him for his utterances, let alone say that the critic was in sin.
Yet we are to believe that if his statements are religious, then they are untouchable? That can’t be right. Given the gravity of theological or doctrinal statements, shouldn’t they be more seriously, critically, heavily scrutinized? Of course. As John says in his first letter, “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4.1). Is testing judging? In a sense, but apparently not in the sense Jesus forbids because John here commands it. So we test the spirits. And what do we do with spirits that don’t pass the test? We call them out and reject them.
Directly following his directions to rebuke and reprove, Paul tells Timothy this: “[T]he time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths” (2 Tim. 4.3-4).
At the risk of incurring further wrath, let me say what is increasingly obvious to me: Osteen sounds conspicuously like one of these teachers. When I hear Joel Osteen, I don’t hear the gospel. I hear American materialism and shallow self-actualization dressed up like the gospel. I could be wrong, and God forgive me if I am, but that’s how I see it.
At the very least he is ill-equipped to serve and speak as he does. And saying as much is not shameful, nor does it deserve an apology.
thank you.
Pleasure.
Health and wealth or name it and claim it are new doctrines...where are the examples in the New Testament Churches. Are the modern day Christian martyrs at fault for the fate that befalls them?
Osteen lacks either backbone or discernment, maybe both!
Wow. Just wow. As if you had any authority as to what goes on in people's hearts when they ask Jesus to become their Lord and Saviour. Or even when and how God chooses to call them to Him. I wouldn't dare question how God does things, but hey...if that's your view of our Lord..what can I say besides, good luck with that.
No wonder some folks want nothing to do with Christians. Sheesh.
Good grief. I guess then all Christians should cover themselves in sackclothes and sit in ashes until He returns?
I can see how folks will come running to Jesus with that sales pitch!
Come on, get saved and you can be miserable too!
I don’t get why some Christians think having joy and happiness in their lives is somehow offensive to God.
Of course we pray and feel sorrow for our brothers and sisters in countries where they are persecuted, but should I not ever eat again because somewhere out there a Christian is starving?
Fasting may prove helpful to your soul RMD. The point that went over your head is that 'ministers' such as Osteen preach that Christianity is all pink bunnies and unicorns - peace, material prosperity and God just hands out whatever you want. Material wealth provides one with joy and happiness - along with positive mental thinking.
Jesus said take up your cross and follow me.
Jesus said the rich will find it very hard to enter heaven
Jesus never preached pop western materialism - he taught that a Christian's entire focus should be on Him and him alone and that anyone who gets his focus off him and onto the world would be in danger.
Only a life focused on Jesus will provide real joy. Material things here will only rust and be stolen - so don't store up treasures on earth.
If you think you have to 'sell' Jesus so you can get 'things' and worldly happiness - you are pitching the wrong Jesus.
And given the sorry spiritual state our nation is in right now - a good dose of sackcloth and ashes may be in order as well.
Your choices of scripture reinforce my point.
Worldly treasures should not be our goal in serving Christ, "for where your treasure is there your heart will be also" Luke 12:34 and Matt 6:21.
Here is another promise for you, "In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." John 16:33. How many of you will "name and claim" that one?
So that is the justification for using the world's methods to "draw in" more believers?
Guess God has fallen down on the job. After all Christ did say that "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
How many "true believers" became that way through the promise of earthly wealth, or popularity? I find both the motives and the motivations specious.
Vig, I asked this question once before when you posted this comment.
Do you believe Mitt Romney is a conservative?
If you are not predestined for salvation no sales pitch, however good, will "get you saved". We cannot come to God of our own volition, we are DEAD in trespasses and sin, not just sick.
Or Harry Reid?
I won’t rise to your baiting with your “advice” that fasting may prove helpful to my soul. LOL! I just love Christians with “holier than thou” attitudes. They are the worst sort of poison to non-believers and the reason many would never darken the door of a church.
As for the pink bunnies and unicorns, I’m not sure that is what I get from Joel’s preaching. Yes, it is positive and encouraging - but always in a way that glorifies Christ and admonishes Christians to place God first in all things and give Him credit for all things.
That said, I’m not here to defend anyone. I just wanted to give another viewpoint as to the different ways God uses different people to bring his children home. His Ways are not our ways..and it would do a lot of good to everyone if we gave Him complete trust in all things and not just the ones that subscribe to our way of thinking.
OK, let’s say for the sake of argument that someone caught Joel Olsteen one morning and at the end of the broadcast, that person went ahead and accepted Jesus as their Saviour.
They also followed Joel’s instructions to join a Bible-based church.
The church would then teach that new believer all of the things that more mature Christians have already been through / taught / experienced.
How did Joel negatively impact this individual? Is this person less “saved” than you or me because of the way they found God?
Whoa! This is where we are not in accord. I do not believe for one second that people are born with absolutely no choice as to whether are not they will be saved. They have to be "predestined"? Are you kidding? Is there no free will then? Did Jesus die so His "predestined" folks could be saved? Um, no. He wants ALL people to come to Him.
I don't have any idea where that "predestined" concept comes from, but let me say that there is NO WAY that God would create someone that had no chance of salvation. That is like having six kids because you figure a few will die before they reach adulthood anyway.
Again, I am left saying wow...just wow. *shaking my head at the thought of someone saying that Jesus died for them and not me because I wasn't "predestined"*. Wow.
But the rank and file are very conservative and you can look it up in the voting history of Mormon heavy counties. Try Madison County, Idaho or Utah County, Utah. Compare said results with any county of similar numbers of your favorite brand.
Christ died for the elect. This is plainly taught in scripture. Indeed the entire modern concept of "free will" is a relatively recent construct. To think that we can foil the plan of God through exercise of our own will flies in the face of God's character. Jesus did not just make salvation possible, He secured it completely on the cross, and since he accomplished it the plan is complete. There is nothing more that needs to be done in order to secure salvation.
*shaking my head at the thought of someone saying that Jesus died for them and not me because I wasn't "predestined"*. Wow.
This comes from a lack of understanding of the subject of predestination. All who are, have been, or ever will be saved have been predestined to it. If you are a Christian, you have been too, you just have been taught that you had to do something (walk an aisle, say a prayer, etc....) to earn it. Nothing is further from the truth.
I would have a problem with someone saying that Jesus died for them and not me because I wasn't "predestined" too, because they have no way of knowing that I wasn't predestined to salvation. Some come to faith earlier than others, all in God's timing.
Again, I am not questioning Osteen’s salvation, I would just like to point out that God can use anyone (or anything) to accomplish his plan. It’s called sovereignty. He has used unbelievers in the past as well; Nebuchadnezzar, King Herod, Judas Iscariot, and Pontius Pilate are easy examples.
Must one ALWAYS place a /sarc tag with such comments.
As for the pink bunnies and unicorns, I’m not sure that is what I get from Joel’s preaching.
Osteen preaches God to be a means to an end - and not the end in itself. And any 'Christian' minister that is too dumb to recognize that mormonism is pagan and not Christian has some other serious theological problems besides his brand of cotton candy Christianity.
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