Read James and John, that’s how you will know that the church is basically the same.
Posted on 10/29/2011 3:31:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Catholics who believe a purifying fire will purge away their sins are deluded victims of a fatal fabrication. The invention of a place for purification of sins called Purgatory is one of the most seductive attractions of the Roman Catholic religion. Pastor John MacArthur of Grace Community Church described this deceptive hoax brilliantly. He said: "Purgatory is what makes the whole system work. Take out Purgatory and it's a hard sell to be a Catholic. Purgatory is the safety net, when you die, you don't go to hell. You go [to Purgatory] and get things sorted out and finally get to heaven if you've been a good Catholic. In the Catholic system you can never know you're going to heaven. You just keep trying and trying...in a long journey toward perfection. Well, it's pretty discouraging. People in that system are guilt-ridden, fear-ridden and have no knowledge of whether or not they're going to get into the Kingdom. If there's no Purgatory, there's no safety net to catch me and give me some opportunity to get into heaven. It's a second chance, it's another chance after death" (from "The Pope and the Papacy").
The Origin of Purgatory
There was no mention of Purgatory during the first two centuries of the church. However, when Roman Emperor Theodosius (379-395) decreed that Christianity was to be the official religion of the empire, thousands of pagans flooded into the Church and brought their pagan beliefs and traditions with them. One of those ancient pagan beliefs was a place of purification where souls went to make satisfaction for their sins.
The concept became much more widespread around 600 A.D. due to the fanaticism of Pope Gregory the Great. He developed the doctrine through visions and revelations of a Purgatorial fire. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia (CE), Pope Gregory said Catholics "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and "the pain [is] more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life." Centuries later, at the Council of Florence (1431), it was pronounced an infallible dogma. It was later reaffirmed by the Council of Trent (1564). The dogma is based largely on Catholic tradition from extra- biblical writings and oral history. "So deep was this belief ingrained in our common humanity that it was accepted by the Jews, and in at least a shadowy way by the pagans, long before the coming of Christianity" (CE). It seems incomprehensible that Rome would admit to using a pagan tradition for the defense of one of its most esteemed "Christian" doctrines.
The Deception of Purgatory
Purgatory comes from the Latin word “purgare,” which means to make clean or to purify. The Catholic Encyclopedia defines purgatory as "a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions." They must be purified of these "venial" sins before they can be allowed into heaven. Here we see Catholicism perpetuating the seductive lie of Satan by declaring "you will not surely die" when you commit venial sins (Gen. 3:4). The Council of Trent dares to declare that "God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction and will punish sin...The sinner, failing to do penance in this life, may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God." (Session 15, Can. XI). Those Catholic Bishops had the audacity to declare that the suffering and death of God's perfect man and man's perfect substitute was not sufficient to satisfy divine justice for sin.
The Motivation for Purgatory
Over the centuries billions of dollars have been paid to Roman Catholic priests to obtain relief from imaginary sufferings in Purgatory's fire. The Catholic clergy has always taught that the period of suffering in Purgatory can be shortened by purchasing indulgences and novenas, buying Mass cards and providing gifts of money. When a Catholic dies, money is extracted from mourning loved ones to shorten the deceased's punishment in Purgatory. When my dear old dad passed away as a devout Catholic of 79 years, I was amazed at the hundreds of Mass cards purchased for him by well-meaning friends. We have heard of other Catholics who have willed their entire estates to their religion so that perpetual masses could be offered for them after they die. It is no wonder that the Catholic religion has become the richest institution in the world. The buying and selling of God's grace has been a very lucrative business for the Vatican.
Another motivation for Rome to fabricate the heretical doctrine of Purgatory is its powerful effect on controlling people. Ultimately, the enslavement and subjugation of people is the goal of every false religion, and Purgatory does exactly that. The concept of a terrifying prison with a purging fire, governed by religious leaders, is a most brilliant invention. It holds people captive, not only in this life but also in the next life. Catholic clergy will not say how many years people have to suffer for their sins or how many Masses must be purchased before they can be released from the flames. This dreadful fear and uncertainty is the most ruthless form of religious bondage and deception!
Another motivation for Rome to fabricate the heretical doctrine of Purgatory is its powerful effect on controlling people. Ultimately, the enslavement and subjugation of people is the goal of every false religion, and Purgatory does exactly that. The concept of a terrifying prison with a purging fire, governed by religious leaders, is a most brilliant invention. It holds people captive, not only in this life but also in the next life. Catholic clergy will not say how many years people have to suffer for their sins or how many Masses must be purchased before they can be released from the flames. This dreadful fear and uncertainty is the most ruthless form of religious bondage and deception!
Another motivation for Rome to fabricate the heretical doctrine of Purgatory is its powerful effect on controlling people. Ultimately, the enslavement and subjugation of people is the goal of every false religion, and Purgatory does exactly that. The concept of a terrifying prison with a purging fire, governed by religious leaders, is a most brilliant invention. It holds people captive, not only in this life but also in the next life. Catholic clergy will not say how many years people have to suffer for their sins or how many Masses must be purchased before they can be released from the flames. This dreadful fear and uncertainty is the most ruthless form of religious bondage and deception!
Biblical Support for Purgatory
There is absolutely none! In fact, neither the word nor the concept of sin-purifying fire is found in Scripture. The Vatican was confronted with this in the 16th century when the Reformers protested its practice of buying and selling of God's grace through indulgences. Backed into a corner, the Council of Trent added the apocryphal books to its canon of Scripture. Rome now declares there is scriptural support for purgatory in the apocryphal book of Second Maccabees. The council ignored the fact that the Jewish scribes never recognized the apocryphal books as inspired or part of the Hebrew Scriptures. They were never included because of their many historical, theological and geographical errors. Since God is not the author of error, He obviously did not inspire the writers of the Apocrypha. This is why the Apocrypha was never included in the original canon of 66 books. ..........."
The Biblical Rebuke of Purgatory
God's Word leaves absolutely no possibility for sin to be purged away by anything other than the blood of Jesus Christ. The beloved apostle John penned these words with irrefutable clarity. He wrote, "The blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin" and "all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:7, 9). John did not say "some" sins or "most" sins, but all sin! This soundly rebukes the need for a sin-purging fire. God's Word also declares, "All things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" (Heb. 9:22). When Jesus "made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Heb. 1:3). Those who desire to have their sins purged need to trust a person, not a place. The blood of Christ is the only cleansing agent for sin! Those who come to the cross of Christ must come with empty hands of faith, bringing nothing but their sins.
Every blood-bought believer is instantly present with their Redeemer at the moment of death. To be "absent from the body" is to be "at home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:6-8). This good news was affirmed by the Lord Jesus with the promise He gave to the repentant thief at Calvary. He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). This habitual sinner did not need a fire to purge his sins.
Catholics who believe in Purgatory need to be asked: "Who is in charge of releasing souls from the purging fire?" It cannot be God because of His promise to believers. "Their sins and iniquities I will remember no more" (Heb. 10:17). After conversion, God no longer counts sins against His children (2 Cor. 5:19).
Purgatory is a travesty on the justice of God and a disgraceful fabrication that robs Christ Jesus of His glory and honor. He alone satisfied divine justice, once and for all, by the perfect and finished sacrifice of Himself. The fatal deception of Purgatory blinds Catholics from the glorious Gospel of grace. It is one of Satan's many lies which keep his captives from knowing and trusting the sufficiency of Jesus Christ. It is Christ alone that will present us "faultless before the presence of his glory" (Jude 24).
Does Jesus have blood in heaven MD?
I know what I’m talking about Madam/Sir. If you’re foolish enough to ignore the new testament then do it at your own peril.
I wasn’t saying that there was a continuous link from John the Baptist to the current Baptists or even the Baptists or anabaptists that preceeded Luther in Germany, what I know for certain is that the current Baptist faith is in line with the original Christian churches, not roman catholic constructs.
We have a difference over the meaning of that phrase. I think it refers to status. I THINK you take it to refer to individual differences.
St Peter (was this statement infallible?) says it about Cornelius on the occasion of his conversion, right? And the matter at hand, Luke's rhetorical 'thrust' at this point in Praxeis, is the incorporation of Gentiles, qua Gentiles, into the Church. I think Peter is saying that, Jewish fisherman or Gentile military district commander, all are welcome. Nothing more.
I DO think that star differs from star in glory, and, by the grace of God I am not envious that a man like Dominic is a greater man than I. I look forward to the realization of my being filled with all the grace (and happiness and holiness) I can contain. I do not think that that means there are not greater vessels who will shine more brightly than I will.
Well, lets look at the wording.
“Christ is "from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made His footstool
“Till” generally means some time in the future doesn’t it? At least it would indicate that it’s not immedieate?
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24)
Notice the words has. Would that to you indicate future or present?
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 1 Corinthians 6:11 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
till = not immediate
hath, are = has already happened and is already present.
Did that help?
>>If there were an instant transformation there would be no need to admonish the reader to hold fast,
After your mother gave you a bath did she ever caution you to not do anything that would again make you dirty? Were you clean when she told you that?
How it went from that too having to do receptive masses etc and other rituals I don't know. Those are not traditions of GOD or Jesus Christ for Jesus Christ alone is our Priest we need to come too. He alone intercedes before the Father for us. Such other acts are tradiitions of man.
It's so sad GOD gave the perfect and very simple plan for mans salvation and man wasted not much time turning it into a traditional Old Testament boondoggle of rules and regulations equal to that of the Sanhedrin's ran Temples. Anyone who pulls out writings of ones beyond the Apostles and says Pope so and so said you must do this and pope so and so said and it must not be questioned but obeyed that type of teachings I hold suspect.
Then it was not invented by a pope. I rest your case. :-)
Anyway: Nope. See Maccabees. Origen MAY have contributed to its formalization but the idea is far older than he.
And Origen was no Pope.
There's a good article in this month's "First Things". I don't think they put stuff on line until the next issue comes out,but keep an eye out for it.
BTW we consider that Tertullian was a heretic in later life, but that doesn't mean we do not read his Apology. Don't make more of heresy than there is to be made.
We disagree about what “once” means,because for us everything in eternity is Once and also Always.
Also, we Catholics have this thing, you may have heard of it, where we claim to eat, substantially and really, the Body of Christ and to drink, ditto, his Blood. Not what USED to be body and blood but what, loosely speaking, is currently His Body and Blood.
So, yeah, Jesus in heaven has both body and blood. I have next to no idea how that can be.
***The origins of the reformation movement was plain old fashioned greed.****
Aboulutly TRUE!
“When a coin rings in the collection box, a soul is released from Purgetory!”-Tetzel
And the fuse for REFORMATION was lit.
OK Mad Dawg, (did you graduate from UGA as I did), I don’t know the Popes name, got me there. I’m sure within 15 minutes I could find out who it was.
The fact is, it was a latter construct of the RCC and for a purely for profit scheme. Not that there’s anything wrong with profit, but it looks a little non-Christian when your population is dying of starvation.
Jesus entered heaven in His Glorified Body..not a human body... scripture says nothing about a glorified body requiring blood for life ... That blood was shed on a cross for us
...what I know for certain is that the current Baptist faith is in line with the original Christian churches, not roman catholic constructs.And how do you "know" that?
Which is true??
A. Catechism [183, 1129, 1815, 2002] Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments.
B. Word of God [Ephesians 2:8-10] Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works. Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation.
Did Christ save anyone at the cross or just make them savable ?
I just reject the word of man. Psalm 118:9 I do not reject the WORD of G-d.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
Psalm 118:8
It is better to take refuge in YHvH
Than to trust in man.
It is better to take refuge in YHvH
Than to trust in princes.
Read Paul’s letters to the Churches. Read James and John, that’s how you will know that the church is basically the same. Again, I never said that there was no interruption in the doctrine, when the RCC has a monopoly they’re loath to give it up, but Luther put an end to that, along with faithful Baptist churches in Germany.
And yes, my degrees are in Political Science and History, double major.
***So that King James version just came down from Heaven all bound in leather and missing 7 books?****
The KJV originally had those seven books. they were considered spurious and removed by American bible publishers. Even Jerome wanted to remove them from his Latin translation but the Pope said “NO”.
You can still get the KJV Apocrypha in a separate printing.
*****
...what I know for certain is that the current Baptist faith is in line with the original Christian churches, not roman catholic constructs.
And how do you “know” that?
*****
. . . and which Baptist church? There are many different flavors of Baptist to choose from. Which of the dozens or hundreds are you?
An “indulgence” is the idea that by contributing some money to the Roman Catholic Church, you could “indulge” in a certain sin and not have to worry about the punishment for that sin.
Even Low Church C of E C.S.Lewis understood the notion better than that.
You can get indulgences without money changing hands. You can get an indulgence for reading your Bible. You can even get an indulgence for quitting smoking --- I've quit so many times that I can probably finesse purgation altogether.
(That's a joke.)
you could “indulge” in a certain sin and not have to worry about the punishment for that sin.
NOPE, nope, and nope! Not at all. Sorry.
Check out the etymology of the word. The idea of indulging oneself, permitting oneself to enjoy something, whether or not to do so is sinful, is late -- 17th century.
An "indulgent" grandparent is one who yields to the desires of the grandchild, which may go against his own desires.
Indulgences are only considered effective for the truly contrite and penitent person, even the indulgences Tetzel sold.
The underlying notion of indulgences is that the grantor is being kind in offering redemption NOT from all the punishment of sin but from the so-called "temporal" (as opposed to "eternal") punishment of sin. We hold that only Christ has and can remit the eternal punishment of sin.
This is one reason we Catholics get frustrated here. I do not know where you learned what you said, but whoever taught it did not fairly represent what we teach.
Do the scriptures say anywhere that a glorified body does NOT have glorified blood -- 'for the blood is the life'?
Are you saying Jesus was utterly bled out on the Cross? Got a citation?
Read James and John, that’s how you will know that the church is basically the same.
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