Posted on 10/27/2011 4:05:56 PM PDT by rzman21
I challenge Evangelicals to put their interpretation of the Bible and their theology up against the acid test of what the Early Church Fathers taught.
Perhaps, Evangelicalism is closer to the truth than Mormonism, but it still has a long way to go.
Purpose
This Web page is dedicated to the defense of Catholic doctrines within Patristic thought. The Catholic rule of faith consists of three coordinate and complementary authorities: Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the teaching Church. The Church Fathers used both Scripture and Tradition to explain and defend the Catholic faith. Corunum's mission is to present the outline of Catholic doctrines as they appear in the writings of the Church Fathers.
What you will Find Inside
Corunum Apologetic Web site does not contain a library of the writings of the Church Fathers. There are a host of sites on the internet which offer the Ante-Nicene Fathers(ANF) edited by Cleveland Coxe and the Nicene Post-Nicene Fathers(NPNF) edited by Philip Schaff and Henry Wace.(cf. ANF/NPNF ). Inside you will find testimony from the Church Fathers on various Catholic doctrines listed in chronological order.
"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out[through their office] the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch,Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:89
Taught by St. Peter the Apostle
Against schism:
"Why are there strifes, and tumults, and divisions, and schisms, and wars among you? Have we not [all] one God and one Christ? Is there not one Spirit of grace poured out upon us? And have we not one calling in Christ? Why do we divide and tear to pieces the members of Christ, and raise up strife against our own body, and have reached such a height of madness as to forget that "we are members one of another?" Remember the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, how He said, "Woe to that man [by whom offences come]! It were better for him that he had never been born, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my elect. Yea, it were better for him that a millstone should be hung about [his neck], and he should be sunk in the depths of the sea, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my little ones. Your schism has subverted [the faith of] many, has discouraged many, has given rise to doubt in many, and has caused grief to us all. And still your sedition continueth." Clement of Rome[regn c.A.D. 91-101],To the Corinthians,46(A.D. 91),in ANF,I:17-18
Taught by St. Peter the Apostle
a tactic used often by non-Christians to attack Christians and the Church is to lie about what Christians actually believe. this is easy to do and often successful since many theological points are not properly understood by Christians themselves. for example, Muslims will lie about the doctrine of the Trinity by saying Christians believe in 3 gods. they know this is a lie, but they enjoy the lie more than the truth. Christians know Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and Muslims don’t know Him.
so we see the same tactic on this thread by the claim Catholics crucify Jesus anew in the Mass and He dies again. those making the charge know it is a lie, yet like the Muslims, they love the lie more than the truth.
hat tip to smvoice for post #186 where the charge is completely destroyed.
what makes this case even worse than the Muslims is it is made by those who claim to be Christian.
well, what to make of such people? Jesus tells us by their fruit you will know them. i think Jesus speaks of these people best in John 8:42-44:
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”
if they were Christian, they would love the truth. if they were mistaken, they would post a correction and apologize for making the false charge. this is not to imply they would need to agree with the doctrine, but correctly stating a doctrine you disagree with is the Christian thing to do. as i said, they love the lie, more than the truth. you will also see the same people accusing Catholics of worshipping Mary, bread, statues, etc etc. all lies from the devil, the father of lies, all wallowed in like pigs in mud.
by their fruits you will know them.....
i’m sorry, i guess i am assuming you accept the Divinity of Jesus. if that’s not the case, we have bigger problems than you not understanding the Eucharist.
to the extent you are correctly quoting actual Church documents, they are correct.
you may want to sharpen those reading skills.
you also may want to look up the definition of “unanswered” and “replied”
i asked 4 questions that if answered honestly, would destroy the malicious lie you posted about the Mass. those 4 questions remain unanswered.
you did reply to the post, which once you look up the above definitions, you will realize is not the same as actually answering the questions.
Jesus was also fully human when He instituted the Lord’s Supper. His earthly flesh was different than the body He had after the transfiguration. Or don’t you believe he was fully human?
Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. (Leviticus 17:11; Hebrews 9:22).
The list is long. What you "teach" and what is "biblical" are two very different things.
Athanasius v. Iscool in Christian theology?
about as big a mismatch as the 82nd Airborne Division v. a two year old.
please note the disdain for a great saint used mightily by the Holy Spirit to fight the Arian heresy. after 1,700 years, the devil still is fighting him.
Did or did not Jesus dispense with the need for sacrifice when He died on the cross and rose again?
1 Corinthians 10:16-17
New International Version (NIV)
16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.
Christians have been unified by the Eucharist for 2,000 years. Christians have always understood Paul was referring to Jesus as the “one loaf we share”
the natural man can’t understand this. Christians, enlightened by the Holy Spirit, understand it perfectly.
“then nothing man substitutes for it can save either”
When that man is Jesus Christ, it can.
that’s the difference between what Christians and non-Christians believe.
Can you tell me what the gospel is?
this is easy to do and often successful since many theological points are not properly understood by Christians themselves
Does this mean we do not understand the apostasy of Rome correctly ??
the claim Catholics crucify Jesus anew in the Mass and He dies again. those making the charge know it is a lie,
You posted this quote i believe..
Pope St. Gregory the Great, Dial. IV,58: Although He (Christ) who rose from the dead shall die no more - death no longer has power over Him - still, although He is immortal and His living form incorruptible, He is being slaughtered for us in this mysterium of the holy sacrifice. Because there His body provides nourishment, His flesh being divided up, His blood pours out - no longer into the hands of non-believers, but into the mouths of believers.
"The Sacrifice of the Mass is not merely an offering of praise and thanksgiving, or simply a memorial of the sacrifice on the Cross. It is a propitiatory sacrifice which is offered for the living and dead, for the remission of sins and punishment due to sin, as satisfaction for sin and for other necessities.http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/link/e-litur.html"
Now scripture tells us there is no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood... so lets put this together.. a pope called the mass a slaughter... (killing) and scripture tells us there is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood... In the OT the work of priests was to offer sacrifices... mass is preformed by a priest...
I do not think we are the ones that got it wrong ..Mass is the re sacrifice of Christ over and over by Rome
LOL! When the Church was deciding the canon of Scripture, one of the criteria that was used was, did the book teach the Catholic Faith? The Book of Hebrews lined up perfectly with the Catholic Faith, therefore it was included in the canon ( even though no one knows who the human author is )
Malachi 1:11
“for from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations , and in every place incense is offered to my name, and A PURE OFFERING; for my name is great among the nations says the Lord of hosts.”
It becomes so difficult to justify when it contradicts scripture. Twisting, turning, obfuscation, and word play become necessary tools.
Jesus physically shed His precious blood ONCE at Calvary. He was actually slain from the foundation of the world.
The sacrifice of the Mass is the sacrifice of Calvary. Jesus is uneffected, Christians are.
this is 2,000 year old historical, orthodox, bibilical Christian belief. i don’t expect you to understand it. i do expect the doctrine not to be lied about.
by their fruits you will know them.......
I know little about the Arians...But I have no doubt that your religion is the heretic in the matter...
yes, Christians are not Nestorians. we believe there is only ONE Jesus, He is fully ETERNAL GOD without a beginning or ending, the first and the last and He became fully man by the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary.
Jesus can’t be seperated into two persons, Christians are not Nestorians.
the Arians also deny the Divinity of Jesus.
nothing new under the sun......
Both ways, you lose with the Mass. There is no loophole here.
Weak?! That's an understatement.
It'd have to be non-existent for me to appeal to what muslims believe for support.
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