Fathers vs. the Evangelicals

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/god.htm ^ | vanit

[rzman21]

I challenge Evangelicals to put their interpretation of the Bible and their theology up against the acid test of what the Early Church Fathers taught.

Perhaps, Evangelicalism is closer to the truth than Mormonism, but it still has a long way to go.

Purpose

This Web page is dedicated to the defense of Catholic doctrines within Patristic thought. The Catholic rule of faith consists of three coordinate and complementary authorities: Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the teaching Church. The Church Fathers used both Scripture and Tradition to explain and defend the Catholic faith. Corunum's mission is to present the outline of Catholic doctrines as they appear in the writings of the Church Fathers.

What you will Find Inside

Corunum Apologetic Web site does not contain a library of the writings of the Church Fathers. There are a host of sites on the internet which offer the Ante-Nicene Fathers(ANF) edited by Cleveland Coxe and the Nicene Post-Nicene Fathers(NPNF) edited by Philip Schaff and Henry Wace.(cf. ANF/NPNF ). Inside you will find testimony from the Church Fathers on various Catholic doctrines listed in chronological order.

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out[through their office] the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch,Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:89

Taught by St. Peter the Apostle

Against schism:

"Why are there strifes, and tumults, and divisions, and schisms, and wars among you? Have we not [all] one God and one Christ? Is there not one Spirit of grace poured out upon us? And have we not one calling in Christ? Why do we divide and tear to pieces the members of Christ, and raise up strife against our own body, and have reached such a height of madness as to forget that "we are members one of another?" Remember the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, how He said, "Woe to that man [by whom offences come]! It were better for him that he had never been born, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my elect. Yea, it were better for him that a millstone should be hung about [his neck], and he should be sunk in the depths of the sea, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my little ones. Your schism has subverted [the faith of] many, has discouraged many, has given rise to doubt in many, and has caused grief to us all. And still your sedition continueth." Clement of Rome[regn c.A.D. 91-101],To the Corinthians,46(A.D. 91),in ANF,I:17-18

Taught by St. Peter the Apostle

[RnMomof7]

Is not the mass a bloodless sacrifice ?

[RnMomof7]

"well, i suppose you can show me from Scripture the teaching of Mary not bodily assumed into heaven."

LOL..RC's love to make doctrine out of silence ..that is how we know that Jesus was really a space alien that got back on the ship on his way up at the resurrection.. cause scripture does not deny this..

[CynicalBear]

>> Jesus has a resurrected, glorified body.<<

You’re still dancing around the question. Is the “flesh” you claim is in the Eucharist the “flesh” of His resurrected body then? If so, how can that be “flesh” the same as when He instructed the Apostles?

[RnMomof7]

Pope St. Gregory the Great, Dial. IV,58: Although He (Christ) who rose from the dead shall die no more - death no longer has power over Him - still, although He is immortal and His living form incorruptible, He is being slaughtered for us in this mysterium of the holy sacrifice. Because there His body provides nourishment, His flesh being divided up, His blood pours out - no longer into the hands of non-believers, but into the mouths of believers.

Interesting word "slaughtered" ..See on the cross Jesus was the perfect lamb of God slaughterd once for our sins.....but now He is our High priest offering sacrifices for us in heaven..he is the priest..NOT THE SACRIFICE..

Do you know that the NT church had no priests because the final sacrifice had been offered.. it was not until 300 years after the cross that the breaking of the bread was made a sacrifice needed a priest... The Holy Spirit made no provision for a priesthood

[Natural Law]

"Why not answer the question?"

Your answer will not be understood. Any discussion of the Real Presence requires an understanding of the philosophical concept of "substance". Like gravity which requires a working knowledge of calculus and physics to explain, Catholic theology requires an understanding of concepts not readily expressed in the vernacular English or in the bumper sticker snippets so loved by Protestants.

It is clear that Protestants and Catholics do not speak the same language. I have rarely seen any knowledge of or desire to learn Catholic theology among the anti-Catholics and that goes double for those who boast of being former Catholics. And even if you do answer the question you can be expected to be asked it again, and again, and again.

[smvoice]

First comes the Sacrifice. The Sacrifice of the cross and the Sacrifice of the Mass are "one and the same sacrifice", for in each, Christ is the offerer and the offering. CCC [1367,1407-1410]. On the cross Christ offered Himself directly to the Father. At the Mass Christ offers Himself to the Father THROUGH the hands of the priest. [1088]. Nevertheless, Christ is still the principal offerer, for the Church considers the priest to be "ANOTHER CHRIST" [1348,1566]:

"The priest no longer exists as an individual person. He (the priest) has turned into a sacramental sign, the representative of Christ, present upon the altar and offering himself in sacrifice. Christ is the real priest; it is he who consecrates bread into his body and wine into his blood and offers both as a sacrificial gift to the heavenly Father." - Dogmatic Theology for the Laity- Rev. Matthias Premm, Dogmatic Theology for the Laity (Rockford, IL: Tan Books and Publishers, 1977), p. 354.

Then comes Immolation. The sacrificial killing of a victim.

"For in the sacrifice of the Mass Our Lord is immolated when "he begins to be present sacramentally as the spiritual food of the faithful under the appearances of bread and wine." - Second Vatican Council-Sacred Liturgy, "Instructions on the Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery," no. 3b; quoting Paul VI, Mysterium Fidei.

Christ does not suffer, pour out His blood, or die at the Mass. He experiences an "unbloody immolation". He becomes sacramentally present under the appearances of bread and wine, a "most holy VICTIM". [1085,1353,1362,1364,1367,1383,1409,1545].

Once Christ is present in a state of victimhood upon the altar, He then offers Himself to God the Father by the HANDS OF THE PRIEST and in UNION WITH THE CHURCH [1354,1357]. The Gospel According to Rome-James G. McCarthy.

Is that about right, according to your Church?

[CynicalBear]

What sacrilege.

[CynicalBear]

You can not answer the question. You are essentially trapped between the carnal and spiritual realm since transubstantiation cannot be both. If you claim the carnal you deny the spiritual, if you claim the spiritual you deny the carnal “flesh”. Since Jesus carnal flesh is no more your transubstantiation is heresy if not blasphemy.

[RnMomof7]

You know what is interesting is they believe they are receiving the ACTUAL blood of Christ.. where there is no mention of Christ having blood in His glorified body ..Flesh and bone... the blood was poured out for us...

[smvoice]

Exactly. There IS NO BLOOD to be drinked, drank, or drunk. It was ALL poured out at Calvary. Once. For all sins. Forever.

[CynicalBear]

It comes down to pagan rituals. Loosely built on scripture with loads of mysticism and old pagan practices.

[Dutchboy88]

"#165 remains unanswered."

Ping to 173. Second time.

May want to sharpen those reading skills, my FRiend. Gotta run.

[Dutchboy88]

"They can not see that ... in part because they do not know the gospel.

This seems to be the undeniable truth. Sad, but true.

[Dutchboy88]

"Is that about right, according to your Church?"

Great post.

[Dutchboy88]

"Interesting word "slaughtered" ..See on the cross Jesus was the perfect lamb of God slaughterd once for our sins.....but now He is our High priest offering sacrifices for us in heaven..he is the priest..NOT THE SACRIFICE..

Do you know that the NT church had no priests because the final sacrifice had been offered.. it was not until 300 years after the cross that the breaking of the bread was made a sacrifice needed a priest... The Holy Spirit made no provision for a priesthood"

Very, very good words. The simplicity of being rescued by grace, through faith, rather than "acts" seems to escape those held in bondage. Thank God for our One and only High Priest according to the order of Melchizadek.

[wmfights]

You will find there is no Roman organization, no purgatory, no indulgences, no sacerdotalism, no papalism, no Mariolatry, no goofy ceremonies, no rituals, no anything concocted by Rome. This is all baggage the darkness uses to distract you from the One central figure, Jesus the Messiah.

Well said, Brother!

[Iscool]

just so you know, Clement of Rome was taught personally by Peter and Paul, so he learned “claptrap” from them??

If this guy did learn anything from Peter and Paul, he perverted it and turned it into 'claptrap'...

[Iscool]

why would someone want to twist Scriptures to try and make them say what Christians have rejected for 2,000 years? who is behind this perversion?

GOD...

Because your religion is old is the lamest excuse to reject the Holy Scriptures...

You have been kicked, punched, slapped up one side and down the other with Holy Scripture and you come back with your religion is old...So what??? So is izlam...So is pagan religion...

[Iscool]

did the Body of Christ die on the cross? was the blood of Christ in the Body of Christ when it was shed on the cross?

Nope and nope...The body of Jesus Christ died on the Cross...The Body of Christ is his spiritual body which is the culmination of believers worldwide...

Your religion's practice of trying to equate itself with the body of Jesus is another perversion of the sciptures...

[daniel1212]

Why should doctrine need to concur with the so-called church "fathers" when, as pious and holy as they overall seem to be, they not always consistent with each other, and the claimed “unanimous consent” of the fathers is a myth, and they also can be invoked for supporting evangelical teachings, and some believed sexual relations even in marriage was necessarily sin? Paul warned about thinking of men above that which is written, (1 Corinthians 4:6) in the context of building the church, and this is often disobeyed, both in Roman Catholic as well as Protestant circles by judging Scripture by men, rather than judging all by it.