Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.
Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
Sin cannot be remitted by any other means. They cannot be paid for by our own suffering if even our own death is insufficient payment for them.
If our sins are forgiven, they are forgiven. God is not going to demand payment for something He's forgiven. Otherwise they haven't been forgiven.
Psalm 103:8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. 9 He will not always chide, nor will he keep his anger forever. 10He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities. 11For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him; 12as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.
Micah 7:18-19 18 Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love. 19He will again have compassion on us; he will tread our iniquities underfoot. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.
God forgives and forgets. There is no payment necessary when there is no sin credited to our account.
Amen and Amen!
"finished" = tetelestai
http://concordances.org/greek/5055.htm
Cognate: 5055 teléō (from 5056 /télos, "consummation, completion") – properly, to complete (consummate), i.e. finish (qualitatively) the necessary process – with the results "rolling-over" to the next level (phase) of consummation. See 5056 (telos).
[This root (tel-) means "reaching the end (aim)." It is well-illustrated with the old pirate's telescope, unfolding (extending out) one stage at a time to function at full-strength (capacity effectiveness).]
Word Origin: from telos
Definition: to bring to an end, complete, fulfill
NASB Word Usage:
accomplished (3), carried (1), carry (1), completed (3), finish (1), finished (11), fulfilled (2), fulfilling (1), keeps (1), pay (2), perfected (1), performed (1).
finish, accomplish
From telos; to end, i.e. Complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt) -- accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.
see GREEK telos
Bingo!
John 5:28 Do not be surprised at this: the hour is coming when all those lying in tombs will hear my voice 29 and come out; those who have done good shall rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be con demn ed.
Jesus seems pretty clear here.
Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Yes James is in my Bible.
Works as evidence of faith, for sure. Works required as part of salvation, NO.
Luke 18:9-14 9He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.' 13But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."
Jesus considered the tax collector justified before he left the Temple.
Which brings us back too this
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
A plan of salvation for all who believe and follow. No money can buy it, no deeds can earn it, only ask in earnest for salvation through Jesus Christ and you will receive. God's plan of salvation was made so simple a child can understand the terms. Man's never ending added conditions to obtain GOD's Mercy and salvation is as old as Israel itself. It has been the nature of man and of church leaders {all of the denominations} throughout the ages too try and burden the believers with doctrines and laws they themselves can't even follow.
Praise GOD our salvation comes through the cleansing, purifying, and sanctifying blood of Christ alone. The Blood Of The Lamb Of GOD which removes entirely without lingering residue mans sin and because of this we are not dependent on mans folly.
It’s over and over in scripture. How anyone can still think they need to somehow “pay” is beyond me. BTW I’m adding all those to my file on purgatory and works. Thanks!
Romans 8:9-11 9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
The same thing for Padre Pio. He claimed he was visited by spirits of the dead who came to thank him for paying for their sins with his sufferings, the stigmata bleeding in his hands, feet and side where Christ was pierced that lasted for 50 years...the spirits were so thankful that at last they could be released from purgatory and go to heaven, all because he claimed his sufferings were in payment for the sins of the world. Not only did he hear the voices, other monks testified that they, too heard MULTITUDES of voices talking with Padre Pio at night... - Padre Pio Foundation of America (24 Prospect Hill Road, Cromwell CT. 06416, 1993 Appointment Calendar with daily readings- the month of April has a picture of the Padre with his hands held up to show the stigmata with the caption: "The wounds of the crucifixion. Padre Pio bled daily for 50 years." Also Newsletter, The Padre Pio Foundation of America and the Mass Association (Holy Apostles Seminary, Cromwell, CT. 06416), August/September 1988.
We’re not talking calculus. If there is no time that elapses between sinful to sinless, there’s no in between.
I would dare say if the amount of time is a blink of an eye, there is no purgatory. Changing instantly from having a sin nature to sinless, does not require an intermediate state called purgatory.
Besides that has never been how purgatory was described to me or anyone else growing up in the RCC. It was a place you spent hundreds or more years in, in purifying fire, to ‘take care’ of the sins you had committed before you died but didn’t do penance for. That is exactly how the nuns described it, that was how the priests described it. That was how my religious education teachers talked about it. It was most certainly NOT EVER, EVER talked about as being instantaneous; the entire emphasis about purgatory was that most people were going to be spending a great deal of time there. That was why we said masses for people. That’s why we prayed for people to get out of purgatory. They were still saying masses for people hundreds of years ago to help them get out of purgatory.
Anyway, we’re probably not far off in what both of us are discussing, and I am not truly interested in making a big deal over wording.
Justification (ie being saved) is instantaneous. It happens in a particular moment.
Sanctification (growing/maturing in Christ) takes the rest of your life, because sanctification means “to make holy, to purify” something that is set apart for holy use. Nobody ends up in the same place, at the same rate. None of us finish the process of sanctification in this life. This life after being saved is our time for us to set ourselves apart, to do the good works God intended us to do, as our purification process. Some people grow and mature more than others. This is the “race” we run. When we die our race is finished. This is the time we subordinate our will to God’s will and do the things He wants us to do. Not after death. There are no works to be done after death.
Glorification (the completing of our sanctification) occurs at the time of death. God finishes the good work He began in us in an instant. The moment the believer dies, He is changed in an instant. The sin nature is gone. God in His love, without breaking His law - as Christ has already paid ALL of our sins - completes our sanctification and as Paul says, “Absent from the body, Present with the Lord.” That is the believer’s certain hope.
Not “Absent from the body, kept in purgatory as such time necessary - and it might be awhile if you have a lot of sins to take care of - for continued purification until you can safely be brought into heaven and the presence of God.”
How do you know that you don’t actually meet Jesus until you die? You meet him as your judge, however.
you are talking of the Mandeans
Yet SAA, there is no "time" in God's eyes is there? God exists outside of space and time.
"He also believes there was a real possibility he could do something wrong IN PURGATORY and lose heaven.
At the same time he believes non Christians could get to heaven (muslims in particular) because of their BELIEF in MARY.
This was not a novice priest. He has now been in the priesthood well over 35 years, he’s the senior priest wherever the parish he’s been posted as long as I’ve known him. He is NOT confused about what the Roman Catholic church teaches."
This priest is very very confused! If any thing the Catholic theologians who are believers agree that purgatory is a trip to heaven otherwise why then cleansing. If it was hell there is no more cleansings. He never would of went on the trip(purgatory) to heaven. He is one mixed up priest.
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