Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Except that is not what that verse says. It says that Scripture is useful in equipping the men of God for good work, which it certainly is. It does not even suggest that Scripture alone accomplishes that or in anyway perfects men.
Except that it DOES say that Scripture THOROUGHLY FURNISHES. What can be added to make something MORE THOROUGH, NL? Then it isn’t THOROUGH to begin with. Read the Scripture. Unless your Bible has been “edited”, and THOROUGHLY is “missing.”
Stop playing these silly little word games. It does not and never did say Scripture thoroughly furnishes. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 states that Scripture is useful (Profitable) in the furnishing (preparing).
You're welcome to post to me anytime your ignorance of God's Word. Just don't post to me anything regarding the CCC Snipe Hunt Club. Or the Doctrines of Turduckens. It's only persuasive to those who want "just a little bite" of that apple...
Would you say that that verse refers to the Gospels, Paul’s own correspondence, the other letters, and to the Apocalypse?
Getting the basic facts before making an outlandish accusation is hardly a snipe hunt.
A simple courtesy would be not to make assumptions or accusations if one doesn’t know the facts - for whatever reason: lack of basic research or the need for more in depth knowledge of the subject.
That kind of posting policy would be worthy of respect.
by Dave Hunt called "A woman rides the beast." The only reason I bring your post 23 over to this thread is because it seems to address some of the same issues you discuss here. When I googled the title of the book, I found this website listed second, by almost the same name: http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/biblestudies/definitions/Def_WomanRidesBeast.htm Wile meandering around this museum of information, I noted that there was an artic;e about how the Catholics founded Islam, among other fascinating topics. The website was truly fascinating, a glimpse into the mind of someone who thinkd the vatican has assassins, and other sundry topics. I encourage every Catholic to look at as much as you can stand, just to know where SOME dispensationalists are coming from. Speaking of finding untruths, and turduckens...I could go on...
Here’s that link, sorry:
http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/biblestudies/definitions/Def_WomanRidesBeast.htm
and here’s the link to the thread “Jewish Advice: Be proud you are a Catholic”:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2798329/posts
Just a little research on some “basic facts”
That's what the term means, but in this case, I was using it for "Do Not Reply". Thanks for the resuscitation offer. Try to give me ANY kind of whiskey and I'm more likely to throw up! DO NOT LIKE. ;o)
It seems to me that if your infallibly assured Magesterium can accept that those who are believers in Jesus Christ as Savior are indeed fellow Christians, then I wonder why "faithful" Roman Catholics have such a hard time with it. The category "Protestant" is only used to designate Christians not of the "Catholic" variety. No one has EVER said Protestantism is a "valid way to heaven" as it is ONLY through faith in the salvific work of Jesus Christ for our sins that ANYBODY can gain eternal life in Heaven. Roman Catholicism is also not a valid way to heaven for the same reason. That you believe non-Catholic denominations are "sects based on lies about the Holy Gospel" proves a biased view that must ignore the very truth of the Holy Gospel derived from the Holy Scriptures.
On the contrary, it was the perversion of the Gospel of salvation by grace through faith APART from works that Paul called out in his letter to the Galatians. You might want to include that in your Bible study. No one here has denied that God has prepared good works for us that we are enabled to do through his grace working within us, but nowhere in Scripture does it ever say grace AND works merit eternal life. The very meaning of grace is undeserved and unmerited favor so how can adding works to faith STILL keep us saved by grace. If we are saved by grace then it is not by works because grace would not be grace. If we are saved by works then it cannot be by grace because work would not be work. Read it for yourself Romans 11:6.
>The point is what the judgment is for, the reward being entrance into Heaven or crowns to greater glorify God with<
It is clear from verses 14 and 15 that both kinds enter heaven (the damned ones are not in focus at all, as the presumtion is that the works of either kind are done on the solid foundation of faith, v.12), but one survives the fire unscathed and with a reward and the other loses the accumulated imperfections and sees no particular reward.
It is clear that if this was purgatory then all would need to have the dross of venial sins burned off (as you say, of “his accumulated imperfections”) to enter Heaven, and thus the 1st class would need to have works consumed to enter glory. In addition, the suffering would be the burning, versus the loss of reward which is what 3:15 says it is, and purgatorial suffering would gain them Heaven, rather than being saved despite this loss. And this is described as all one event.
>but the fire is not purging them so they can enter Heaven<
The purifying fire is a necessity for those whose works contain stubble. Read the scripture: "he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." The implication is clear that the fire enables his entry into heaven. However, it is true that both kinds enter heaven eventually.
No, as again, all in purgatory have stubble, else they would not be there, and so you still have two classes, and in Scripture all stand before this judgment of Christ , (Rm. 10-12; 2Cor. 5:10) and which is at His return, as shown. And in 1Cor 3 you have souls who survived the fire unscathed (although it is their works which do) while in context of "he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire," these are saved despite having had their works burned, not because of them.
>Instead this is speaking about reward for service, for those who are already in Heaven.<
No because the entrance into heaven "he is saved" does not occure till he has gone through the purifying fire "saved as if by fire".
Again your construct is contrary to purgatory as those who are said to be in purgatory are suffering until they are made fit for Heaven, which is where those without corruption already are, whilst in 1Cor. 3 all believers would also be awaiting final salvation,* including those who survived the fire unscathed. And once gain, ,the contrast between the two classes describes the latter as being saved despite his works being burned up. The fire did not save him, but it burned up that which should have remained, as they did for the first class.
However, i would allow that this is not speaking of two entirely distinct classes, as that the 1st are those who entirely escape the fire unscathed, as you have them, nor that the latter class have absolutely no fruit, which seems to define one who is not a believer, whose fruit withered, and is cast into outer darkness, in which case the suffering only seems punitive, not purgative. (Mt. 25:24-30; cf. Mt. 8:12; 21:43; 22:13) But besides other things, the judgment of 1Cor. 3 is that of the day of Christ, not an ongoing one commencing at death, nor the suffering being purgative for holiness to enter glory.
>it best “speaks” of in context and by typology is converts<
That may be one example of "man's work", but the passage is written intentionally in the broadest of terms: "every man's work", with "every" repeated four times and "any" also four times.
It was intentionally written in context so as to define “work” (singular) as that of building the church, as shown, the Corinthians themselves being “God's building,” and which material Scripture defines as persons, as shown. But as works manifest faith and the heart, one can say the latter was being judged indirectly, but as the work is the fruit, thus the giving of reward is to those whose work remained, while the 2nd class lost that which should have remained, which is not character defects, nor did this loss save them, but it did not prevent their salvation.
>if was character defects that were lost in order to gain entrance to Heaven, that being the Reward, then those whose works were consumed would receive the reward, rather than being saved even though those they built the church with failed.<
Sorry, I cannot parse the meaning of this.
If the reward was that of entering Heaven, and which is given as a result of their character defects having been purified through the fire, then those whose works were consumed would receive the reward, rather than those who survived the fire unscathed, with the latter class being saved despite suffering loss of reward. And even if “reward” means something else, the first class would not be in purgatory anyway waiting to enter Heaven, and the latter who be saved because of the fire, which causes them a loss of what was valuable for reward.
In your attempt to make 1Cor. 3 conform to purgatory you are again making purgatory more conformable to 1Cor. 3
Some differences are:
|
Subject |
Purgatory |
1 Cor. 3 |
|
|
Purpose and Theology |
Purifying of accumulated imperfections which imperfect believers experience in order to be fit to enter Heaven. Believers are forgiven and initially justified by pure grace without works (as in paedobaptism), but grace through faith means one does works by grace by which one is accounted worthy of eternal life, in God's His grace and in faithfulness to His promises. One must also provide satisfaction for sins not compensated for on earth, and attain unto that holiness without which no man can see the Lord. |
A judgment of works for all believers for giving rewards according to how one built the church. Being acquitted and saved by God-granted repentant faith, by which the unGodly are justified without works, this effects holiness and works thereof which attest to true saving faith. But as acceptance with God is on Christ's account and imputed righteousness, then perfect practical moral perfection as an attribute of faith is not required for eternal life and entrance to Heaven (though the kind of faith which justifies is one that will effect righteousness). Eternal life is a free gift appropriated by such faith, versus the wages of sin which is death, but as promised, faith and works are recompensed by God in His grace and faithfulness, but not as owed as morally deserved |
Lk. 18:1-0-14; Jn. 5:24; Acts 10:43-47; 11:8; 15:7-9; 16:14; Rm. 2:13; 3:8 — 5:1; 6:23; Heb. 5:9; 6:9; 10:17; Ja. 2:17,26; Mt. 16:2; 25:31ff; Eph. 6:8; Col. 3:24; Lk. 17:10; Gn. 32:10 |
|
Place |
Outside Heaven but not in Hell |
With the Lord |
2Cor. 5:7,8; Phil 1:21,23; 1Thes. 4:17 |
|
Period |
Commencing at death, and lasting potentially thousands of years |
In the future day of Christ/the Lord/God, at the judgment seat of Christ |
1Cor. 1:8; 4:5 (cf. 2Tim. 4:1,8); Rev. 11:18; 22:12; 2Thess. 2:2; Phil. 1:6,10; 2:16 (cf. Mt. 25:2) |
|
Persons |
Imperfect believers (versus saints) in need of purification, versus those who have no such imperfections, who go directly to Heaven |
All believers, who being saints, will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and to be recompensed according to their works which they did as believers |
^ Rm. 10-12; 2Cor. 5:10 |
|
Possessions |
Accumulated imperfections, dross of sins. |
Building material of the church, which is built upon a Person, and persons, with believers being living stones, and the Corinthian being Paul's work, this being a fruit of his faith. |
Eph. 2:20 (cf. 1Cor. 3:11); 1Cor. 3:9; 1Pt. 2:5 |
|
Method and Results |
“fire and torments or purifying' punishments” resulting in expiation and cleansing of the dross of sins, imperfections, and resulting in gaining entrance into Heaven |
Testing as of by fire of their manner of work resulting in a positive reward or the suffering of loss of reward of that which was valuable. This giving of rewards leads to both classes of believers entering into their eternal inheritance in the Holy City, with those who lost works being fully saved despite suffering loss. But one cannot be without some fruit at all. |
1Cor. 3:8-15; Mt. 25:14-30 |
*the full realization of their redemption, that of the “resurrection of life,” (Jn. 5:29) and “the time of the dead,” (Rv. 11:!8) and revelation of the manner of one's work, and motives, “when every man have praise of God,” (1Cor. 4:5; Rv. 22:12; ) and the revelation and entry into the Holy City, and of seeing God's face, (Rv. 21, 22) which occurs at the end for all believers.
i first addressed the issue of authority
I know, but the issue was consuming the whole conversation, and the fact that the Catechism sees the scripture in question as a reference to the Purgatory closes the matter. On a thread about internal Catholic issues of authority it would have been a meaningful conversation but not here.
The issue was not consuming the whole conversation, and it was not pointless, which you relegated it to be. Issues of authority as to what is authoritative is very relevant, as Catholics can disagree with both the level of authority you give to the CCC (open to dispute?) as well as your interpretation of its reference to 1Cor. 3:15 and 1Pt. 1:7 as regards whether it uses it to support an aspect of purgatory or as directly referring to it.
Yes, these 1-11 are my posts and I stand by all of them. Observe, too, that I keep referring to the scripture while you are building free-satnding constructs that deviate from the scripture in f ocus. That I find typical of Protestant disinterest in discussing the scripture unless it, on occasion, fits their theological positions.
What balderdash! You can see what you want to see, but if anyone cares to look up the posts and verses then they should see that they are not free standing texts, which Roman Catholics are prone to use, but that i went verse by verse and also cross referenced statement with clearly conflating texts, while you are the one who relies on isolating texts from context and corresponding texts!
all you posted in response was to reduce Purgatory to “purification preceding the entry into Heaven,” for some, (“That is all the Purgatory is”), while as i have argued, that it is only one aspect needed to make 1Cor. 3 refer to being a purification commencing at death in order to enter heaven.
If I omitted "at death in order to enter heaven", that was inadvertent. As my previous post should have shown, if nothing I posted before, 1 Cor. 3 refers both to a necessity of purification and the fact that is is occuring at the point of death, when the lifelong work of the believer is complete.
What you were doing was focusing attention on a concurring aspect while omitting contradicting ones, such as shown above, and trying to argue some points while the whole in contrary to purgatory.
Well as my Mom used to tell us, "I want an apology, not a character reference."<<<< kidding >>>>
I seriously doubt it was without due diligence since that old canard is straight out of the He Who Cannot Be Mentioned comic books. It's interesting catching up on these post because that's not the only one of the errors widely distributed as a comic book attack of the Catholic Church that seems to have made it's way here. It really depends on what the person posting such bunk thinks is a worthy source for their disinformation.
Regards
LO -hic - L
(Since you wouldn’t take the whiskey and I didn’t want it to go bad,I finished -hic- it.)
Thank you for your company, Mad Dawg.
Of course. I got my by's and through's mixed up.
Don't put words in my mouth please. Protestant means belonging to one of the heretical groups that rose out of the so-called reformation (whether they have some historical claims to the Early Church or not), and condemned by Trent; defining characteristics of Protestantism is the superstitious beliefs in the salvation by faith alone, instruction in the faith by the (truncated by them, too) scripture alone, and various misinterpretations of the nature of the Holy Sacraments.
The heresies of Protestantism endanger the salvation of the Protestants, misrepresent the Christian faith to the non-Christians and are generally bad theology. No union is possible with them; apart from the Anglicans, the Protestants should convert to authentic Christianity individually.
I have no similar objection to several authentic churches that are not in communion with the Roman Church: the Eastern Orthodox, the Copts, the Armenians, and quite a few others. While it is sad that we are separated, we are sister churches nevertheless and I know that one day we will be one again, and it will not require conversion for anyone.
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