Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.
Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
That's not 'official at ALL!
This is lunacy! Did you read the Our Story section? I skimmed it and it looks like a family decided to develop a catechetical product top make teaching little ones easier. They're not a whole lot more official than I am.
And look at the sneaky way they come right out and say that what they've posted is made short so it would be easy to memorize:
Did you know that the Catholic Ten Commandments are not a direct quote from the Catholic Bible? We didn't.This is obviously a site pitched to children and especially to preparation for first reconciliation around age 7 or 8, and STILL it says clearly that what they're presenting is shortened to make it easy to memorize.
...
The Decalogue as seen in the Baltimore Catechism is extracted from Exodus in a concise way so as to convey the meaning of the text in an easy to memorize way.
Your “shortened version” stands as evidence of the subtle yet effective method the RC uses.
Ah. The evil, sneaky Catholics, cruelly depriving their second and third graders of the opportunity to memorize two versions of the ten commandments! Yes, that's it! We're warping children's minds! Stop me before I warp again!
I don't know to what group you belong, but I have to ask: is it your expectation that 7 and 8 year olds be able to understand and to recite both the Exodus and the Deuteronomy version of the Decalogue?
Well, wouldn’t one have to know or, at least, to be culpably (vincibly) ignorant of the truth to have sinned when speaking a falsehood?
MD, you have to remember that the objective standard of truth to the anti-Catholics is anything that substantiates their contempt for Catholicism, anything.....from any source. After all, if they found it on the internet it MUST be true.
Besides, with a new Decalogue given us by Jesus (the Two Greatest Comandments plus the Eight Beatitudes) does the discussion even pass the "so what" test?
I “belong” to no fallibly organized religion. I do belong to, by God’s grace, the universal body of Christ.
>> is it your expectation that 7 and 8 year olds be able to understand and to recite both the Exodus and the Deuteronomy version of the Decalogue?<<
I certainly was expected to and did.
Perhaps this would be more “official”?
http://www.beginningcatholic.com/catholic-ten-commandments.html
Or this, which list the “Traditional Catechetical Formula”.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm
Well, CB, I guess it can make sense seeing as how many times I've seen Roman Catholics on this forum make reference to the "fact" that the Roman Catholic Church "wrote" the Bible.
That whole concept makes me laugh out loud. But hey; if they believe it, it just goes to further the looney tunish-ness of the claim.
But if pointing out the divergence of the Roman Catholic Church from the truths of Scripture make me or you or any believer look silly, then I'm fine with it!
Hoss
I don't know where the threshold for sin enters into this because I do not know the mind of those spouting garbage that I know to be at variance with the truth and the educated mind.
The only place you don't refer us to is God's Word. It's always GOd's Word PLUS something. You are the ones who will go to any source to substantiate your claims. Unless it is proven NOT to substantiate your claims at all. Then the goal post is once again moved.
If there is a place, other that the Written Word of God to find the absolute, unchanging truth, then please, show us. Everything you've shown so far has been met with one proof after another that it is indeed NOT truth.
Define “Scripture”
For example, plus "rightly divided." :-)
It's a good question, completely fair, in my POV, and very hard to answer.
Whether there are only 2 or as many as 20k different groups which claim sola scriptura as their basis for all that they teach, the multiplicity, to us, is sufficient to show that sola scriptura simply understood is not enough. And that's before we go into the Scriptures which, as I know you know, I think argue against sola scriptura. Reasonable people of good will disagree over where the right divisions are. Not all dispensationalists agree with one another, though all claim Scripture Alone.
But there's something more. We have in our congregation a guy whom some of us call (behind his back) "Trent Man". If somebody told me the only book he owned or ever read was the Constitutions of the Council of Trent, I'd believe it.
And he argues from them not so much like a lawyer as like a tub-thumping(whatever that is) street-corner preacher. (He has issues, poor guy, and once got into a shouting match in the parking lot over his obsession with Trent.)
It's as if he's trying to "do a corner" in Jesus, as if he feels that to have mastered Trent is to have mastered Jesus.
And that's the problem. Jesus is the Truth. He's not a book. He's not even a library. And the relationship, the right relationship, with Jesus is not one of mastery. It's not even one of "systematic" knowledge. That's why, though it would be strange to try to "make theology" out of what Catherine of Siena or Terese of Lisieux wrote, nevertheless they are honored with the title "Doctor [teacher] of the Church." They taught Jesus, not theology.
Theology and Dogma are not the be-all and end-all, for us-- despite appearances. Living the life of grace in Christ is the thing. And there are plenty of people who know all the answers and at least SEEM to be utterly ungraced (though that's not really for any of us to say). They know all the answers, but (it seems) not the Answer.
And that, perhaps, is why even going to the CCC is not going to be satisfactory. IMHO, while the CCC does frame the inquiry and give the terms most helpful for its prosecution, it still has (in MY view, and maybe no one agrees) a very great sense NOT of "Here's the answer, 'do this and you shall live,'" but rather of "Here's how to think about this question. Carry on and report back from time to time,okay?"
For me to invite someone to become a Catholic is not so very much about, "Think this stuff; it's true; do what we tell you. Shut up." Yes there are sacraments and devotions and whatnot. And there are dogmas and practices one is required to perform and others one is required to avoid.
But all that is peripheral, really. What I want to convey in RCIA (outside of the sheer fun and glory of it all) is that it's good to long for holiness, to pray for fervor, for the graces to give more and more so that one receives more and more, to be alive and sensitive to the voice of God, yes in the Word, but also in the angry mutterings of a derelict, or the grumblings of an old and malodorous woman. And above all, it is good to consider, to trust that everything God ever did was done with the goal of making you happy.
I think that is why when one asks which mountain must I climb or which sea must I cross to know what Catholics teach, the answer will never satisfy. The TRUE Answer is in the wondering that prompts your question, in the longing for truth which stirs this dialog. Seek Him, and all else will be added unto you.
The "Fathers" are not always notable for cool and rigorous argument. Sure, some are, but many are not. But what WE think we see, even in the angry tirades of Athanasius or Jerome, the meticulous arguments of Augustine, the expositions of John of Damascus or of Cyril of Alexandria, despite their apparent faults, are the footprints of Jesus, and the flickering glow of the Spirit's fire.
I am not writing about what the LDS folk call "testimonies." The adversary is perfectly (poor choice of words,, he does nothing well, much less perfectly) capable of strangely warming a heart. I am talking more about finding, over and over again, a damp fleece on a dry threshing floor, or a dry fleece on a wet one, and finally (switching allusions and) saying, "Surely the Lord is in this place."
At a much less exalted level, we don't really write our stuff to persuade those who disagree with us. So we don't write with their sensitivities in mind. When deMontfort writes about "worshipping" Mary, he's confident that Catholics will know what he means and probably doesn't think that non-Catholics will ever read his stuff. We're pretty relaxed that way.
We're relaxed because we're confident and because our eyes are, we think, on the prize, which is most definitely NOT a "protestant-proof" (no offense intended) articulation of faith, but Jesus Himself.
Okay. I gave it my best shot.
In third grade you knew what adultery was? My!
I most certainly did and in no uncertain terms. At eight years old I was also driving a tractor pulling wagons five miles to land we farmed away from the home place.
Good for you!
The only thing I was driving at that age was my parents crazy.
LOL Perhaps my dad getting us to perform those tasks earlier than some was in response to that? Actually, back in those days, it was rather common for us farm boys to grow up pretty fast. I remember at the age of 5 or 6 the call upstairs of “boys it’s milkin time” meant more than that he was headed out.
You were blessed. Srsly.
My mother was born in London and studied with Keynes. She had no clue about country living at all. My father was off around the world making money. Mom grew up with only an older sister. I think her first two sons (I was #2) just completely baffled her.
I know my running a few dairy goats and up to 100 ewes was a great education for me as well as for my daughter. And when facts of life time came around, I just suggested she hang around and watch when I turned the rams in. Then my wife took over on the finer points while I helped on the moral issues.
But it’s more than just right and wrong and mechanics. It’s the wonder of a steaming, warm lamb when the weather is in the teens and twenties. So she’s a city girl now, but I think she still is influenced by all that.
She also took a fair amount of grief in high school for living on a sheep farm, and I hated to see her suffer. But I think she became proud (in a good way) of it, though she got a mite tetchy when I picked her up from school in the pickup instead of the aged Volvo wagon.
LOL The vehicles weren’t the problem because it was a farming community but growing up on a hog, dairy, beef, and sheep farm you can imagine how thoroughly I scrubbed before getting on the bus to school or going anywhere “in public”. Growing up on a farm has long lasting lesson though.
I remember the very first post we exchanged. It was about the TRUTH. And here we are today, discussing the TRUTH. It obviously means the greatest thing to both of us. As it does for all, I'm sure. There can be no ultimate TRUTH if there is nothing unchanging and everlasting by which to measure it. It cannot be trusted to man's opinions, which change, are limited, and finite. That leaves one place: God's Word. If A TRUTH is desired, look to man. Man intuitively knows a truth from a lie. Whether he chooses to believe it is another story. But THE TRUTH. The sum total of all God would have us know. And has given to us. That can only come from God.
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Tim. 3:16,17.
The sum total of all God would have us know, in order to have THE TRUTH which is for righteousness and perfection is to be found in God's Word. Plus nothing.
Why do you suppose that nearly every Protestant apologist would want you to believe that "profitable" in this verse actually means sufficient or exclusively sufficient and not merely useful? Are we to believe that St. Paul was saying that one must find Scripture either absolutely all inclusive or completely rejected?
In the most recent error, you were prompted to do "a little research" "basic facts" "due diligence" and even given the simple topic to look for. Heck, even wikipedia would have prevented a blind leap into an absurd conclusion.
In the end it took MD to do it for you. If someone won't even attempt the most simple research, I find little sympathy for complaints of ignorance.
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