Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.
Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
AND, the new 'man' can not sin...They can't seem to pick that up...
The sin is done by the 'old man' in the flesh...
That which goes up ahead of the body has no sin attached to it...That's why there will be no White Throne Judgment for Christians...We have be judged already...
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
We are not under the law...We are under Grace...There no sin imputed to us...
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
We are dead to sin...The 'new man' within us is dead to sin...
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Self explanitory...
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Praise God...No purgatory...
The part of us that sins stays here in the ground while we spend our lives with Jesus (until our bodies are glorified and raised)...
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
I don’t understand why some twist the scriptures to say they are already made perfect in Christ, when it is clear they aren’t. It looks to me like purgatory would do some of them good.
C'mon Judith...No one is twisting scripture...
You are judging by the outward appearance and thankfully God doesn't judge that way...
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
So you are not complete in Jesus??? All Christians are complete in Jesus...
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Your sinful body/flesh was put off from your soul by the invisible circumcision of Jesus...The part of you that goes to heaven is no longer connected to your sinful flesh...
perform your salvation.
accomplish your salvation.
achieve your salvation.
complete your salvation.
Take your pick. There is NOTHING in either of those translations that says what you say it says.
Why perform it if it is accomplished?
Why accomplish it if ditto?
Why achieve it if "?
Why complete it if "?
You say it is accomplished. That's your word. (not without ample scriptural precedent.)
So if it is accomplished,why accomplish it?
If it needs to be performed, accomplished, achieved or completed, then what does "accomplished" mean?
I'm not saying it's not accomplished. I AM saying that in this pair of verses Paul is saying (as elsewhere) that the whole time thing, the whole "done, but needs to be worked out" or "true, but needs to come true" means it's just not as simple as your side makes it out to be, between bouts of insulting us.
Do you think it's an ACCIDENT that the language of God's chosen has weird tenses?
IF we are risen with Christ, evidently some of us still fail to seek those things which are above, and that needs to be changed, not that we might be saved but because we are.
I say again,for the eleventy-twelth time, the doctrine is that those in Purgatory are already saved. Nothing they do in purgation is so that they might be saved. They ARE saved. It's a red herring to raise the notion that what they do there is so that they will be saved. It's not what we say,and it leaves me wondering why raise things we do NOT say?
Purgatory then, like penances now, are undertaken NOT to earn salvation, which is absurd, but because they are the "performance, accomplishing, achievement, and completion" of what is already true. They follow Paul's injunction "κατεργαζεσθε".
The next verse, the one you cited, is interesting because it uses a present participle as a substantive. θεοζ γαρεστιν ο ενεργων εν θμιν. God, for(gar is postpositive)is the in-working [one] in you.
It seems to be IN process AS WELL AS accomplished.
So the cross was insufficient payment for your sins MD? What else could Christ have done??
Yep “Bara”
'mon Judith...No one is twisting scripture
Well, you c'mon. I disagree. A bunch of clearly imperfect people saying they are perfect is not my idea of living up to sola scriptura.
What I am saying is the blood of Jesus Christ alone removes entirely all sin from us and all that is not pleasing too GOD the moment we accept Christ as Lord and Savior. We are 100% unconditionally healed, we are set free, it is finished. All righteousness was fulfilled for us through Christ. There is no need for added cleansing or purification.
A winning lottery ticket couldn't hurt.
So the cross was insufficient payment for your sins MD?
I defy you to show me where I said that?
Honestly! It's like a mental block, a hysteria or something!
I have repeatedly said quite the contrary. I am looking at Phil 2:12 or Ephesians 2:10.
In that latter Paul has just got done saying that works don't save (more or less) and then he says there are good works ordained for us.
But when ->I<- say there are good works ordained for us you conclude that I think that works save and IHS hasn't done enough? Tell it to Paul!
No. Real God. Real Christ. Real Salvation. It has been correct in that regard for 2,000 years because of guidance by the Holy Spirit. .False premise on your ecclesial community’s part. Oh, and the best part, to me? I have, and will still, pray for you. As well as I will still say and mean it: God be with you.
Okay. Let's move deliberately. It's not paying for sins. it's not earning salvation (as if). We're clear on that -- not "Do we agree?" just are we clear that that's not what we're saying?
Then there is the "seam". The seam of Phil l2:12 and 2:13. Of Ephesians 2:10. Of the status of being risen with Christ together with the injunction to seek those things which are above. (Colossians something or other, it's part of a canticle I sing, that's why I know it.) We are dead unto sin and alive to God in IHS XP our Lord so we are told to consider ourselves so.
There is something left for US to do. It is not to be saved, because we are.
That's where the seam is,IMHO. That's what we need to inquire into.
I have to go ... for hours.
That is why we should rely upon The Bible and The Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth and not the Doctorines of men or mans traditions. If Stephen and John had not been purified soley by Christ they could not have witnessed what they saw. If GOD could not look even upon or be in the presence of His Son at the cross because of sin {Ours} how much more so us? Yet Stephen saw Christ at the right hand of the Father in His Glory meaning he would have too have seen both. That is proof of the cleansing and healing power of Jesus Christ is absolute.
Well, then, just what the heck are we being purified FROM?
Sin is the only thing that needs cleansing. There is nothing else in Scripture that qualifies for that need. Once the sin is gone, we’re pure in God’s eyes.
The Holy Spirit born again part of us certainly has no sin stain on it.
The old man (old nature) has been crucified with Christ and is dead so when our physical bodies go, that’s the last of him.
There’s nothing left to be purified and that contains nothing left to be purified FROM.
So, now, all these people who, 2000 years after Christ, are purified, filled with the Holy Spirit, without stain,
but SOMEHOW,The Mother of the Christ — who made all that perfection possible — MARY, ISN’T???? (*yes, I am yelling*)
If one must be "purified" by self purging the cross of Christ was insufficient ...
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; - HEBREWS 1:1-3
My Christ had an all sufficient sacrifice..
Who said Mary was not washed in the blood of her Son??... But no one except Christ was BORN without sin... or kept the law perfectly..so as to be sinless...
There is no one that hears the prayers...
Yep our Vile Cursed Bodies we are all born into sin with. :>} Trough one man sin entered the world and through one man it was taken away. Christ is the only person ever born without sin because he did not come from the seed of man {Adam} but rather is the Son Of GOD in whom there is no sin. Adam was created and had a choice between obedience to GOD or sin {imagine that only one rule he had to follow and could not} but instead chose sin corrupting the seed to follow till GODs plan of salvation is fulfilled and time in this world is no more.
Our bodies become a sanctified Temple when The Holy Spirit dwells within it after of acceptance of salvation. The blood of The Passover Lamb is on our doors. These Vile Bodies shall perish at death and return to dust. New ones pure and without sin await us afterward. I look forward to someday being rid of mine and seeing others I know finally able to walk, run, think clearly, and have what GOD intended for us.
and Mt 10:22... "but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
We have been saved (Eph 2:8), we are being saved (2 Cor 4:16) and we will be saved (1 Cor 15:51).
We are in a process of sanctification from sin. And purgatory is the final sanctification by the blood of the lamb, by the grace of the Holy Spirit -- this purification is done by Christ.
"The Holy Spirit born again part of us certainly has no sin stain on it." == and that is the final purification/purgatory
If we have to pay for something ...then the previous payment was not sufficient ... When will you guys know you have payed enough??
This was not enough huh??
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Just what do Catholics have to add to this???
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