Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.
Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
I think if you read that through again and keep in mind that at the beginning of that chapter he’s talking about the “meat” and “milk” Christians. That follows through the entire chapter. It’s analogous to the seeds falling on different ground parable. Some begin to grow but when it begins to get hot or lack of rain or whatever there are no roots sufficient to sustain and they are “burned up” by heat.
This is not a sneaky attempt to inflict Catholic propaganda on anyone. Sayers was Church of England. It's an attempt to provide a source with as good an introduction to the whole way of thinking as one is likely to encounter.
And if I hook even one person into reading the entire Commedia I have done a good thing. Lewis (also Church of England) thought it the greatest poem ever written. So do I.
There is a huge danger in reading secular opinions of scriptural teachings. I don’t even read Lewis for that reason.
18All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
And Romans 7.
We have two natures within us. We have the old nature which is corrupted and sinful and needs to die and can never be fixed up or cleansed or purified.
We have the new nature, that of the Spirit, having been born again, which is not corrupted or sinful and gives us life.
They are at war within us, but they are separate and do not overlap. There is no need to purge the new part because there is nothing to purge from it. There is no evil in it as it is of the Spirit and CANNOT have evil in it.
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
When we finally die physically, the old nature is dead once for all. It is no longer part of us. The new part that remains, the part that has been born again and is the new creature, does not have any stain of sin, just as the old nature does not have any *stain* (For lack of a better word) of righteousness.
Should we stop reading each other then?
Or maybe I don't understand what you mean by 'secular'.
Does death perfect us, so that we are instantly fit for heaven at the moment we leave the body? I don’t think it does. I don’t see people being perfected before death, either, nor have I seen any of the Sola adherehnts quote any scripture to that effect.
I do not recall anyone on these threads ever claiming they were perfect in doctrine or behavior, although possibly I missed someone.
I’ll give you an example. In the Old Testament a word that has been translated God because at times it was talking about God and describing an attribute of God is misinterpreted. That word is Elohim. In Greek the word is used to describe an attribute of God but is not always used to refer to God. Its meaning is “judge”. The judges of the Israelites where called Elohim. Error in translation leads some to think men were being called gods. Take that one error and follow it through and it causes many problems.
Perhaps Christians should be forbidden to read Greek, then...What language was the Torah written in? Because “elohim” was used in Genesis, as I recall.
Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Now you have.
Elohim still means judge not God. In all cases it was giving an attribute of God. Calling someone Elohim does not make him a god it means he is a judge. Calling God Elohim is referencing His attribute of being the supreme judge, not His divinity.
It seems your point about Elohim is under discussion here:
What these different perspective clearly show is that “judges” was not posited as a valid translation prior to the Rabbinic Period.I was not referring anyone to an argument FOR purgatory but to a discussion of the idea. I don't think Sayers or Dante was trying to persuade anybody of the idea. They are explaining it.
Next we’ll take a look a more up-to-date and respected Hebrew lexicon, the Hebrew Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament, by Koehler and Baumgartner. It should be no surprise that the entry on elohim explains the translation can only be “gods,” or “God.” “Judges” is mentioned as a rare Midrashic translation that is not accurate. Older dictionaries and lexicons are generally based on the early twentieth century Christian apologetic readings of Ps 82 that I discussed above.
So, “In the beginning, the judges created the heavens and the earth”?
Not going to be, not hope to be. ARE. At this present time. It has already been accomplished. There is no other time that God has set aside for this to be accomplished. The moment we trust Christ for our salvation, it is done. There is no need for purgatory. Which is why it only exists in the minds of those who think we are not yet complete in Him.
But of all the sola scriptura adherents on the forum, I just don’t see anyone whom I think is complete in Christ. Almost all of them SAY they are, but it just doesn’t look like it.
I don’t understand why some twist the scriptures to say they are already made perfect in Christ, when it is clear they aren’t. It looks to me like purgatory would do some of them good.
I know you have been told that because I've seen I've seen others post that multiple times on these types threads.
Ephesians 1:3-4 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
Philippians 1:9-11 9And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, 10so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
Titus 1:15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
1 John 3:2-4 2Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. 4Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
Philippians 1:9-11 9And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, 10so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
Colossians 1:21-23 21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
It would sho’ ‘nuff do me some good.
But it doesn’t matter what you think. Or I think. It only matters what Gods says. And He says we ARE complete. There can be nothing added to something that is complete. We are still in our bodies, as long as we live on this earth. Our bodies are the outward man, the very thing we are to put no confidence in. And that is why we look for Christ, who will change our vile bodies and fashion them like unto His own glorious body. We will become in our flesh, what we ARE NOW, in our spirits. It’s not a matter of what we look on after the outward man. It’s what God sees us in, the inward man, in Christ, and in His body.
On the other hand we have the assertion that such people ARE complete, right now.
It would SEEM to follow that in heaven there will be people with obvious moral and spiritual flaws.
Where does the argument break down? It seems SOME kind of change other than shuffling off the mortal coil has to happen.
You will, no doubt, be amazed to learn that I look at time differently -- informed not only by philosophical examinations of time and space but also by the weird tense structure of Hebrew.
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above ..." But if I am risen with Christ, why do I need to seek -- if I am "complete" as I am?
Everyone could say the same. Sometimes I wonder if the RF isn’t purgatory, in part.
While the Catholic encyclopedia would like you to believe it is being used as a metaphor because it is also used for judges, angels and kings it, the Catholic church, also agrees with the judge references.
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