[smvoice]

"For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And ye ARE COMPLETE in Him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye ARE circumcised with the circumcision (spiritual) made WITHOUT hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with Him in baptism (spiritual) wherein also ye ARE risen (spiritual) with Him through the faith of the OPERATION of God, who hath raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath He QUICKENED together with Him, HAVING FORGIVEN you ALL trespasses." Co. 2:9-13.

Not going to be, not hope to be. ARE. At this present time. It has already been accomplished. There is no other time that God has set aside for this to be accomplished. The moment we trust Christ for our salvation, it is done. There is no need for purgatory. Which is why it only exists in the minds of those who think we are not yet complete in Him.

[Judith Anne]

But of all the sola scriptura adherents on the forum, I just don’t see anyone whom I think is complete in Christ. Almost all of them SAY they are, but it just doesn’t look like it.

I don’t understand why some twist the scriptures to say they are already made perfect in Christ, when it is clear they aren’t. It looks to me like purgatory would do some of them good.

[Mad Dawg]

On theone hand we see people who claim, believably, to have given their lives to Christ. Yet they have obvious moral and spiritual flaws.(Present company excepted of course.)

On the other hand we have the assertion that such people ARE complete, right now.

It would SEEM to follow that in heaven there will be people with obvious moral and spiritual flaws.

Where does the argument break down? It seems SOME kind of change other than shuffling off the mortal coil has to happen.

You will, no doubt, be amazed to learn that I look at time differently -- informed not only by philosophical examinations of time and space but also by the weird tense structure of Hebrew.

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above ..." But if I am risen with Christ, why do I need to seek -- if I am "complete" as I am?