How do Mormons answer ‘not Christian’ claims?

Washington Post ^ | October 12, 2011 | Michael Otterson

[greyfoxx39]

I had been a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints for just a few days when I encountered my first experience of anti-Mormon prejudice.

-SNIP-

“But you’re not Christian and you don’t believe in forgiveness.” It was not a question, but a declaration, delivered with a finality reminiscent of a judge’s gavel rendering verdict on a hapless miscreant.

-SNIP-

Mormons do not pretend that their understanding of Christ is identical to that of Christian orthodoxy. We embrace the New Testament and much of what the modern Christian world teaches about the Savior of the world, but we do not stop there. We have a lot more to add about the Son of God, and it is that additional revelation that causes the real rub with some orthodox Christians. To us, however, refusing to accept further enlightenment on the mission of Jesus Christ is like a math teacher telling his or her students they must stop at multiplication tables. No algebra or calculus allowed.

-SNIP-

For those who want to accelerate that process of understanding, our churches are open to all every Sunday. Use the website to find the nearest chapel to you, and feel free to drop by. If you try to track the number of references to Jesus Christ in the service, you may lose count. So just observe the families, listen to the prayers, leaf through the hymn book to see if any of the hymns seem familiar, and make up your own mind as to how Christian our people are. Jesus taught us: “By their fruits, ye shall know them.”

[Cronos]

In fact your thread contained such a lot of lies it was incredible, claiming that Christianity was pagan.

It showed an utter lack of any knowledge of any language besides English and it showed an utter lack of any scripture. Sad.

[patlin]

Is not ALL Scripture the Inspired WORD? Does not Revelation say in its title “The Revelation of Yah’shua the Messiah to John”?

It was Yah’shua that gave those words to John, “Worship YHVH!”

[patlin]

In fact your thread contained such a lot of lies it was incredible, claiming that Christianity was

And you would be correct in the fact that I generalized. I was wrong in doing that as I was to young in my Hebrew studies. But the point of the thread was spot on, the religious practice is pagan. In fact YHVH called it an abomination as he did the other major religious practice as well as a majority of the weekly religious customs that are still in practice. The records of the Councils of Nicaea are testament to this fact. Christianity spawned out of hatred to Jewish rabbinical law, it increased its membership by allowing abominations to YHVH to enter HIS House and then added their own relgious law. These is just the plain ugly facts. The origins of Christendom has its roots in doctrine of men who think they are smarter than YHVH.

[patlin]

It won't be so pleasant for you next time

[proe]

I have not read such fanciful revisionist history since the Communists tried the same in the 20th Centery.

You rant stated "In fact YHVH called it an abomination as he did the other major religious practice as well as a majority of the weekly religious customs that are still in practice. The records of the Councils of Nicaea are testament to this fact. Christianity spawned out of hatred to Jewish rabbinical law".

Are we having personal chats with YHVH or is this idea the product of a vivid imagination?

Perhaps this is revisionist history from the planet Kolob with the LDS types or are you expecting some imminent rapture with Dispensational overtones?

You would be well advised to continue your studies and read objective historical sources.

[patlin]

I guess one would actually have to read & study the ONLY Scripture Yah’shua Messiah & the Apostles taught from, the Tanakh, to know the truth about revisionist history.

As I have repeatedly said, there is not one religious denomination doctrine that has not added to or taken away from Torah, therefore none are pure and none have the full truth.

[proe]

"As I have repeatedly said there is not one religious denomination doctrine that has not added to or taken away from Torah"

What self serving nonsense we appear to have here as if one merely appoints themselves a Torah scholar.I assume you are not an adherent of replacement theology.

No proof save self interpretative scriptural cites which often seem to be taken out of context

As I have said, you need to continue your studies perhaps at a Orthodox Yeshiva concentrating on objective reality especially Luther's love of the Hebrews.

[xzins]

I don’t really care how Mormons explain it. The Mormon Church is not a part of historic Christianity. The differences are simply too numerous to list here one more time.

Can individual Mormons, outside of the teachings of their denomination, be saved? Of course. A person can be saved by responding to the simple message of John 3:16 if that’s the only legitimate verse of scripture that they have in their library.

I would add that I believe God will lead them out of that denomination into a legitimate sheepfold where they’ll be nurtured.

[greyfoxx39]

Can individual Mormons, outside of the teachings of their denomination, be saved? Of course. A person can be saved by responding to the simple message of John 3:16 if that’s the only legitimate verse of scripture that they have in their library.

That's a tough row to hoe for mormons...not only are they ordered to "follow the profit", the whole culture is bound hand and foot by the "church". Friends, family, bosses, neighbors....all part of the Morg..."resistance is futile."

We pray for them.

[RobbyS]

I would say, rather, that it is taking to extreme the neglect/disdain of the Church fathers. The Reformer never did this, but modern Fundmentalists do. The Mormon claim about the Great Apostasy is quite like the Baptist claim of a “secret” Church that persisted during the thousand years before coming into the open again at the time of the Reformation. One can surmise, that this is where Smith got his notions from, that and the freemasonic ceremonies that his liturgies resemble. Even today, one suspects that beyond the public faith is a secret one, one known just to the select few. This may not be the case, but a more public stance would help dispel the rumors.

[greyfoxx39]

If this comment, "One can surmise, that this is where Smith got his notions from, that and the freemasonic ceremonies that his liturgies resemble. Even today, one suspects that beyond the public faith is a secret one, one known just to the select few. This may not be the case, but a more public stance would help dispel the rumors.

Is referring to the mormon church, and there is indeed a secret one for the "select few"...and I suspect Romney is one of the few.

SECOND ANOINTING or SECOND ENDOWMENT

This ordinance is so rare that many good Mormons do not even know that it exists. It is done only by invitation from the president of the church, to one married couple at a time. It is performed in the Holy of Holies room of the temple by one of the apostles of the church. Those who receive this ordinance are guaranteed of their salvation and exaltation in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. The man is anointed as "priest and king" (the wife is anointed "priestess and queen") and their "calling and election [to exaltation] is made sure." Part of the ceremony is performed by the couple in private in their own home, following instructions given during the temple ceremony, and includes the ceremonial washing of feet. One implication of the ceremony is that the recipients will have a personal visitation of Christ. In earlier days many devout Mormons received this ordinance, but since the 1920s it is extremely rare, and probably only given to those in high leadership positions in the church.

For a detailed description of this ceremony, click here. (offsite).

[patlin]

Luther's love of the Hebrews

Martin Luther started off loving Hebrews but as time went on and they refused to convert to Christendom, he was anything but nice. In fact it is this writing of Luther's that Hitler used as his playbook for the Holocaust. Hitler was very proud of this fact.

On the Jews and Their Lies, 1543
by Martin Luther (1483-1546)

I am saying this to honor and to strengthen our faith and to shame the hardened unbelief of the blinded and stubborn Jews, for whom God must ever and eternally be a liar, as though he had let David's house die out and forgotten his covenant and his oath sworn to David. For if they would admit that God is truthful, they would have to confess that the Messiah came fifteen hundred years ago

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb

Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping... Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted

Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow

The entire book is rather disgusting

http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

I assume you are not an adherent of replacement theology

No, Christendom has the corner on that religious market

[xzins]

Absolutely. We pray for them.

[greyfoxx39]

No, Christendom has the corner on that religious market

Thread highjack in progress.

[patlin]

I'm a registered Lutheran therefore I have every right to call out the religious doctrine of my church & its founders for what it is. Sweeping ugly history under the rug is a trait I have fast learned that Luther's Christendom was good at.

Proclaiming such purity in religious doctrine when it can not be substantiated as to have superiority to trash other religious doctrines is not a brotherly trait.

[Cronos]

oooh, threats. No wonder, since there is no scriptural basis to your group beliefs.

[greyfoxx39]

First, you say, "Sweeping ugly history under the rug is a trait I have fast learned that Luther's Christendom was good at."

THEN...."Proclaiming such purity in religious doctrine when it can not be substantiated as to have superiority to trash other religious doctrines is not a brotherly trait."....

So, on a thread discussing mormonism, you trash "Luther's Christendom" and then try to judge everyone else....ROTFL!

[Godzilla]

Proclaiming such purity in religious doctrine when it can not be substantiated as to have superiority to trash other religious doctrines is not a brotherly trait.

And this coming from one who states that Christianity is perverted because it is not completely under the law? I really doubt that Patlin's doctrine would be found acceptable by the Lutherans he claims to be "registered" (funny and questionable term) with.

[Avalon Hussar]

Perhaps this is revisionist history from the planet Kolob with the LDS types or are you expecting some imminent rapture with Dispensational overtones?

Woah hoss, don't dump this loon in with us Dispensationalists. We put up with a lot of different views on things, but this guy is off the rails when it comes to unscriptural doctrines. He sounds like a Seventh Day Adventist, though I'm not positive, but I can guarantee he's neither a Baptist or Pentacostal. I know their doctrines and this ain't it.

[SENTINEL]

Jeff, I think I am a lot like you (and Glenn Beck). I am a direct descendant of the Martin Harris family. Born and raised in Utah and Idaho. Married in the Logan temple. Bishopric member at 35. Hard working patriotic Eagle Scout Ezra Taft Benson quoting warrior for the cause...Even an author (like you...Well done BTW) very soon.

I went into the Church library in a fit of rage to prove that referenced quotes posted here by Greyfoxx and others in the journal of discourses and history of the church were lies. What I found was SHOCKING, I went in trying to defend the church only to find I had been lied to and tricked by the leaders.

Joseph Smith DID claim to be GREATER THAN CHRIST. He and Brigham Young DID teach that Christ was not born of a virgin, was a MARRIED POLYGAMIST, AND A SINNER. Joseph Smith DID "retranslate" the ENTIRE bible and Brigham Young declared the whole thing a fraud and that is why you don't use the JST to this day.

Forget this stuff though, and let's just talk about the nature of God. God is Alpha and Omega, never changing, perfectly just AND perfectly merciful. He has given us his word and Christ himself promised us three separate times in the bible that "Heaven and earth shall pass away but my word shall not pass away."

Now if God is never changing, then how can you explain the shift from Ezra Taft Benson preaching John Birch Society publications from the pulpit to Monson allowing MARXIST HARRY REID to bash President Benson from the pulpit in front of the faculty and student body at BYU ? How can Monson/Reid AND Benson both be the mouthpieces of an unchanging God ? The only explanation is that they ARE NOT.

You are a dying breed, a good breed of patriots who got that way because of your McKay/Benson LDS upbringing. Mark my words, the day will come when the president of the LDS church will order you to comply with government disarmament, among other things.

God saved me from the Mormons and now I have a relationship with Jesus Christ, his ONLY begotten, who has saved me eternally simply because he loves me. Even my purest works of righteousness are filthy rags before him. There is NOTHING I can do to earn what has been given, AND NO OTHER MAN that can or ever will be between us. He owns us all, he bought us with the blood of his only begotten. He created us so that we can be like the angels to be with him, to praise him, just because he loves us, not because of what we can do for the creator of the universe.

Consider that we do what we do here because we love you and want you to be free.

Check out our quotes to see for they are true. Then, with the full knowledge and of your own free will, decide if you want to stay in the Harry Reid/John Huntsman (Obama's China Ambassador) version of the Mormon church.

You're a good guy Jeff.