Posted on 09/17/2011 5:52:41 AM PDT by marshmallow
Converts have to be intellectuals. And if you aren't one, they'll try to make you into one.
Any “Catholic” who supports abortion or homosexuality is an heretic or apostate. Their loyalty will certainly be questioned at the pearly gates. Illiterate peasants can become converts.
Rot, you talk of your own limited experience and make generic statements. That's wrong. There are converts out of pure love and faith -- they may not exist in your time and neck of the woods, but they do around the world. I've told you before of making generic statements and still you persist in doing so, why?
; ~ )
As a cradle Catholic I have the comfort of knowing this is always and forever my faith. I have no doubts, I seek no other counsel as to my faith... it just is. I seek nothing to replace it.
I'm tempted to reply tartly that nobody converts to the Catholic Faith from a church that has "the whole council [sic, the correct word is "counsel"] of God," since the Catholic Church is absolutely the only religious body that meets that qualification.
Do you doubt me? Tell me, which Protestant body has the whole counsel of God? The Calvinists don't think the Lutherans or Arminians do, or they wouldn't be Calvinists. The Arminians don't think the Calvinists or Lutherans do. Who's right? How do you know? Who gets to judge who has the "whole counsel of God"?
Have you read Beckwith's book? I have. I didn't see any misrepresentations of Catholic doctrine big enough to catch my eye. As for misrepresentations of Protestant doctrine, since it's all over the place anyway, who is to say what is or isn't a misrepresentation? I believe Beckwith was completely honest about what he believed as a Protestant.
My only criticism of his book is that he spent a bit too much time defending Francis Beckwith against the charge that he had violated the ETS charter. (Since ETS had, and perhaps still has, Orthodox members, and the Orthodox reject sola scriptura, I'd say Beckwith's case on that is open and shut and doesn't require much defense.)
William Webster, BTW, is in no position to criticize anyone else for misrepresenting Catholic doctrine. In fact, he's an expert at it.
Most of these conversion stories fall into a common theme - "fringe member (or non-member) starts out illiterate and ignorant of his/her own confession, then gains publicity and fame on EWTN by making a loud, trumpeted conversion to Catholicism."
Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds? Being interviewed on a Catholic cable station confers "publicity and fame"? Are you serious? I know lots of converts, even a couple who were on EWTN. I know nobody who converted in order to get on television.
I notice you don't mention Scott Hahn at all, who graduated from Gordon-Conwell, was a minister in an independent Presbyterian church, and was a professor in a Protestant seminary. He gave John Gerstner a weekend to talk him out of "Poping". Gerstner failed; in fact, Hahn could see where exactly Gerstner was misrepresenting Trent. Was Hahn "illiterate and ignorant of his own confession"?
What about Jeff Cavins, who was a Pentecostal pastor in Ohio? What about Kris Franklin, who was an evangelical missionary in Central America?
Speaking of which, do you realize how many of those who convert away from Catholicism really are "illiterate and ignorant of their own confession"? Quite a few. And that's something for which Catholics, the clergy especially, ought to be extremely sorry.
I live in the United States of America, and they do not exist there.
I could make the same accusation of "rot" to you for singling out the Orthodox Presbyterians (or whatever they call themselves) for anti-Semitism when right wing Catholics are every bit as opposed to chr*stians participating in Jewish rituals (like seders)--if not more so.
Too bad the hieararchy of "the church on earth" doesn't question their loyalty. What's authority for if it is never used?
Illiterate peasants can become converts.
Not in this country. American Catholics think the Baptist church was created by G-d to pick up the simpletons who don't have the mental acumen to be Catholics.
ROTFL!
Haha excellent post! I’d love to post the picture of that serious looking clapping guy, but can’t (it’s too tricky on an iPhone and I don’t have it anyway). Anyway, loved every word, thanks.
You could, but you being Jewish or Messianic Jewish should know the dangers of stereotyping. Your statements as every bit as repulsive as those who blame all Jews for Marx or all Jews for Rothschilds.
You don't remember this thread?
....One remark his wife makes in this book suggests that Hahn's desire to be noticed is great: "Scott suffered tremendous loneliness. He was misunderstood and rejected by many Protestant friends who didn't want to talk to him.... He felt that former professors didn't think he was worth pursuing to convince him he was wrong [about Scripture]. And he couldn't understand the nonchalance of a number of [Roman] Catholics at Marquette [University, where Hahn was a student at the time] over his conversion, acting rather hohum over the whole thing, rather than welcoming him for all he had risked and left behind" (109). What good is being a martyr if no one notices you?........As for [Hahn's wife] Kimberly, "At this point [more than halfway through seminary] I was not steeped in Reformation theology, so the change in how I viewed justification did not seem momentous" . Please consider the import of that statement. Here are two graduates of a Presbyterian College, two students nearing completion of their studies at reputedly one of the best evangelical Protestant seminaries in the country, two professing Christians – and the meaning of justification is not all that important to them. As we shall soon see, despite – or rather because of – their education, the Hahns – especially Scott – could not defend the Reformation principles of the Bible alone, faith alone, and Christ alone....
-- From the thread The Lost Soul of Scott Hahn
“I live in the United States of America, and (converts out of pure love and faith) do not exist there.”
I call that pretty bold talk from a one-eyed fat man.
Oh, sorry, for a moment there I thought this was “True Grit” (the John Wayne version, which is the only true, whole, and complete version).
Of course there are converts out of pure love and faith in America. I am gob-smacked that you could find the pride of intellect to state categorically that there are none.
“singling out the Orthodox Presbyterians (or whatever they call themselves) for anti-Semitism when right wing Catholics are every bit as opposed to Christians participating in Jewish rituals (like seders)”
So, the only reason to adhere to one’s own faith is that one hates Jews? To participate in a non-Catholic rite is to suggest that one accepts that rite as theologically valid, that’s all.
“Too bad the hieararchy of “the church on earth” doesn’t question their loyalty.”
Satan’s attacks on the Church in the 20th century struck major blows. However, we appear to have turned the corner with our German Shepherd, and I think he will continue to draw a line in the sand.
“What’s authority for if it is never used?”
Authority must be used with wisdom. Just because I think a given action should be taken right now, and in a given way, doesn’t mean it should. I’m not wise. I think His Holiness is. When one looks at the condition of the Episcopal Church right now, with schisms and rug-muncher “bishops,” one must wonder if John Paul II wasn’t wise not to come down hard on apostasy in that particular period of history.
“Not in this country (Illiterate peasants can become converts. American Catholics think the Baptist church was created by G-d to pick up the simpletons who don’t have the mental acumen to be Catholics.”
What country are you living in? Maybe I should ask first what planet you are living on.
I meant there are no "simple" converts in the USA. Here the Catholic Church appeals only to intellectuals. I think it's the only kind of person they want.
So, the only reason to adhere to one’s own faith is that one hates Jews? To participate in a non-Catholic rite is to suggest that one accepts that rite as theologically valid, that’s all.
You have completely misunderstood my point in that comment. Your co-religionist Cronos has been lambasting Orthodox Presbyterians (or whichever it is) for at least a year as anti-Semites because they are opposed to chr*stian seders, supposedly unlike the wonderful, tolerant, liberal Catholic Church which allegedly has no problems with them. I merely called him out on his hypocrisy in condemning a denomination for an attitude that exists just as much in the Catholic Church. If you want to argue with someone who believes chr*stian seders are a wonderful thing, then you'll have to argue with him, not with me.
Satan’s attacks on the Church in the 20th century struck major blows. However, we appear to have turned the corner with our German Shepherd, and I think he will continue to draw a line in the sand.
You mean the German shepherd who, before he was pope, wrote a book on Genesis rejecting its facticity and even the concept of original sin? Some "conservative" that guy is.
“Not in this country (Illiterate peasants can become converts. American Catholics think the Baptist church was created by G-d to pick up the simpletons who don’t have the mental acumen to be Catholics.”
What country are you living in? Maybe I should ask first what planet you are living on.
I live on the planet where during six years in the Catholic Church begging someone to speak to my mother about joining (and yes, I did speak to her myself--I'm the only one who ever did) they absolutely refused to do so because, as a visiting priest told me, the Baptist church is perfectly fine. That's the planet I live on. What planet do you live on where the Catholic Church actually wants people--not just intellectuals, but ordinary people--to join it??? It sure ain't earth, buddy.
The only way I managed to join the Catholic Church was by taking the initiative myself. The Catholic Church doesn't really go to any effort to attract or convert anyone, and most Catholics ridicule those denominations that go door to door and try to convert people. I've never understood why; at least those other churches care about ordinary people.
Joining the Catholic Church is like joining the Masonic lodge; the "seeker" as to petition to enter.
You’re right about one thing: some dioceses here in America suck. And I don’t mean the generic “OK on TV” G-rated “suck.” (Self-censored) I mean “suck” from back when it was a *really* dirty word.
I really don’t think there is a single intellectual in the diocese I find myself stuck in at present. I’m not sure there is anyone of normal intelligence. I’m sitting here trying to think of a single good thing to say about this diocese, but I can’t. I was going to mention the music at Easter, but I went to congratulate one of the trumpet players and he snubbed me with an extra helping of scorn, so that kind of spoiled it.
I’ve been trying to get my two youngest in catechism classes. They were supposed to start today. We were at the appointed place at the appointed time, but no one else was. Just about the time I was giving up on looking and asking people, the teen life mass or whatever was ending. I hung back until no one was waiting to shake hands with the priest (a protestant custom that I heartily detest), then I went up and said, “I’ve been trying to get these two into catechism classes, but there is nothing on your web site that gives the dates and times. I called, and was apparently told the wrong time, because I can’t find anyone here. This is a bad, *bad* place to be a Catholic.”
He is a young fellow, a new priest, and looked a little shocked, but I’m willing to bet that no one calls me back, that the only thing that comes of this is that they will try to stop taking my calls. This is the last straw, though. It’s been five years of torture in this diocese, and nastygrams are going to fly in all directions—even Romeward.
Our bishop is a genuine protector of sodomites, almost as bad as the Catholic-haters think Catholic bishops are. He was a protégé of Phony Mahoney of Los Angeles. Our first couple of weeks here, we discovered that it is a “Catholic tradition” that confessions are not heard for the week before Easter, then went to Mass and were treated to gross liturgical abuse and outright heresy. These Stepford parishioners just sat there with glazed expressions and let it all wash over them. I really think the priest could deflower little girls on the altar and they’d just sit there. Intellectuals? They’re *morons.*
But that is not the Catholic Church at work. That is the result of generations of bad seminaries, bad bishops, and bad priests. That bad stuff is not the Church, nor is it a fruit of the Church. It is the toxic fruit of Satan’s attacks on the Church, and I believe the corner has been turned.
I don’t know what His Holiness wrote about Genesis, but back in 1917 my mother was taught by the Priests and Sisters that there is a good deal of allegory in Genesis, so that idea is nothing new. Further, I believe that the Bible contains both historical truth and theological truth, the latter presented through allegory and parable. I’m betting that His Holiness wrote something similar to that, and I have no problem with it.
I can easily believe what you say about your mother, and should you want to hire anyone to slap those people in the face, I volunteer. Still, they are not the Church. They are asshats who have wormed their way into positions of authority because good men don’t do it.
“The only way I managed to join the Catholic Church was by taking the initiative myself.”
I like it that way. I will talk to anyone who wants to talk, but if they don’t, I don’t nag them.
“The Catholic Church doesn’t really go to any effort to attract or convert anyone, and most Catholics ridicule those denominations that go door to door and try to convert people. I’ve never understood why; at least those other churches care about ordinary people.”
I don’t favor going from door to door or haranguing people. I do think ordinary people should be able to go down the street to the Church and find a priest to talk to.
“Joining the Catholic Church is like joining the Masonic lodge; the “seeker” has to petition to enter.”
I’m fine with that.
That's just a bad priest. My wife was told much the same thing (by one priest), except s/Baptist/Episcopalian/g. (Then she went to a priest who was an ex-Episcopalian, instead of a wannabe Episcopalian, and got the truth.)
Although, having said that, unless your Mom (a) had specific questions she wanted answered; or (b) had already expressed interest in joining, they would have a case that talking to her about it was really *your* job. Having a priest descend on you out of the blue to try and talk you into becoming a Catholic can be pretty off-putting and intimidating.
Joining the Catholic Church is like joining the Masonic lodge; the "seeker" as to petition to enter.
Pretty much the way it's been since the beginning, that. High-pressure evangelism isn't part of our tradition.
I think nearly every Catholic-turned-Protestant conversion story is based on the same line. I particularly like the "half of our church is made up of former Catholics". I'm sure all those "Catholics" were fully informed and aware of what the Church teaches and why.
Lots of people here, not sure how many are "fringe" but my guess is they know their former faith better than you. But than, it seems many non-catholic Freepers have the power to know the true convictions of anothers heart.
Here are two graduates of a Presbyterian College, two students nearing completion of their studies at reputedly one of the best evangelical Protestant seminaries in the country, two professing Christians – and the meaning of justification is not all that important to them.
*If* that were true, that's an indictment of Calvinist, Presbyterian Protestantism, and of "one of the best evangelical Protestant seminaries in the country".
Except that it isn't. Scott, not Kimberly, is crystal clear that he was gung-ho for the Lutheran/Calvinist understanding of justification, until he got to Protestant, Calvinist seminary and discovered that the arguments against it were strong. (He's not alone in this. Heard of the "New Perspective on Paul"?)
Discovering that something is wrong, and that you were mistaken to believe in it, is not always the same thing as being ignorant about it.
Were it so, we could conclude quite easily that all of those ex-Catholics who become Protestants are prima facie ignorant of Catholicism. (I happen to think that a great many are, but I don't think it's a given by implication.)
It is comfort isn’t it?
I remember when I was floundering about, not sure which “church” I would choose. I am at home in Catholicism and like you now have no doubts.
I admire your steadfastness, it is not easy in this world.
I think of those like you as “holding down the fort” while the rest of us chase our tails trying to figure it all out.
Glad I put that futile exercise to rest.
All you have to do is to ask yourself; "if the Church Fathers came back today which Church would they attend". I have no doubts that they would feel completely at home in the Catholic Church and would completely reject much of Protestantism.
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