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Glenn Beck's "pure personal truth," Part 1 [Real Mormonism]
RenewAmerica.com ^ | Sept. 6, 2011 | Marsha West

Posted on 09/06/2011 8:15:09 AM PDT by Colofornian

By Marsha West

Here Glenn Beck goes again, claiming he's a Christian, this time at Restoring Courage 2011 — Jerusalem. Glenn gets upset when anyone questions his Christianity. That's weird because he's a Mormon who affirms the official teaching of Mormonism aka the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS). The LDS outright deny many of the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. Moreover, LDS doctrine contradicts what Scripture teaches. So of course there are Christians who feel Beck's not a true follower of Jesus Christ — not the Jesus of the Bible anyway. When his "I'm a Christian" claim is held up to scrutiny Glenn gets his knickers in a knot. At the rally he choked up with emotion and said in an accusatory tone that only Christians question his salvation.

Poor Glenn. He's so misunderstood.

People are wondering, and rightly so, how a Mormon in good standing can also be an evangelical. I mean, Glenn has no plans to leave his church any time soon. Sure, that could change — and hopefully it will. But right now his wagon is hitched to the LDS and he's in it for the long haul.

What many people fail to understand is that Mormonism is a religion. It is not the same religion as Christianity, not even close, yet they say they're Christians. Take the time to study their Doctrine and Covenants and you'll find their beliefs are very different from historic, orthodox Christianity, especially when it comes to the essentials of the faith. Undeniably Mormons have high moral standards as do Christians. Mormons are right up there with evangelicals and Catholics in fighting the culture war. They oppose abortion on demand, same-sex "marriage" and have many of the same cultural concerns as other people of faith do. One thing's for sure: When it comes to fighting the culture war Mormons put their money where their mouth is, whereas a large number of evangelicals and Catholics are more prone to let sleeping dogs lie.

In his article Is Glenn Beck a Christian Matt Slick acquaints us with a few LDS beliefs:

— There is a mother goddess, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443).

— After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354).

— God used to be a man on another planet, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321).

— The Trinity is three separate gods, (James Talmage, Articles of Faith, p. 35).

— God the Father has a body of flesh and bones, (Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22).

— God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children, (Mormon Doctrine p. 516)

The Bible does not teach any of this! It's what the founder of Mormonism Joseph Smith and Mormon prophets taught. What does Scripture really teach? Matt explains:

Christianity, which is based on the Bible, says there is only one God (Isa. 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5); that God is a Trinity of persons, not three gods; that God has always been God (Psalm 90:2); that God knows of no other gods (Is. 44:8); that you cannot become a god (Isa. 43:10); and that God is spirit (John 4:24). This contradicts Mormonism. Therefore, Mormonism is not biblical, and not Christian. If Glen Beck holds to the teachings listed above, then he is not Christian.

All of this begs the question: Why do evangelical leaders choose to team up with a Mormon? More specifically why did historian David Barton of Wall Builders, Attorney Mat Staver of Liberty Counsel, Mike Evans of Jerusalem Prayer Team, and Pastor John Hagee join Glenn at the Restoring Courage rally?

California megachurch pastor Jim Garlow said, "I have interviewed persons who have talked specifically with Glenn about his personal salvation — persons extremely well known in Christianity — and they have affirmed (using language evangelicals understand), 'Glenn is saved,'" Garlow reported. "He understands receiving Christ as savior." (Online source)

David Barton stunned the audience when he went on Live TV and told host Randy Robison (here) that just because Beck attends a Mormon church "doesn't say anything about his personal relationship with Jesus." Which Jesus? The counterfeit Jesus of Mormonism or the Jesus of the Bible? Barton worries that "a lot of people judge Glenn on the label, he's Mormon." He wants us to ignore the Mormon label, says he doesn't care about the label. The host probed: "You believe he's a Christian in every sense of the word?" Without flinching Barton replied, "I do. I have literally watched him pray and hear from the Lord and turn on a dime." He thinks Glenn is hearing from the God of the Bible...but is he, really?

I have a challenge for David Barton: Read Glenn's book The Seven Wonders That Will Change Your Life co-authored with Dr. Keith Ablow. In the book he lays out his "pure personal truth." (In part 2 I'll shed light on Glenn's view of "truth.")

The Lord Jesus said, "You must be born again" (John 3:3, 5, 7, 8, 1 Peter 1:3) to qualify as a Christian. Muslims do not believe Jesus was God, they believe He was the last prophet sent by God. They respect him as much as they respect Abraham, Moses and Muhammad. Are Muslims Christians? No. New Agers are pantheists. For them God is all, all is God. They hold that "Jesus was a highly evolved man who realized his inner divinity — the Christ Consciousness — demonstrating that all men could achieve this." Are they Christians? No.

I am a woman. I can call myself a man, but my DNA proves otherwise.

Recently Larry Klayman, founder of Judicial Watch and Freedom Watch, wrote an article to show his support for Restoring Courage. "So it came to pass," said Klayman who is an evangelical, "that Glenn pulled off a magnificent spectacle, bringing Christians and Jews from all parts of the globe together to show their courage in supporting Israel." (Online source) Glenn also brought many Mormons. Why did Klayman not mention them? If Beck was a Muslim would he have left that out of his article? No, he wouldn't have. What he probably would have said was, "Glenn pulled off a magnificent spectacle, bringing Muslims, Christians and Jews from all parts of the globe together..." Surely Klayman would have included "Muslim" if a Muslim organized and hosted the rally!

Giving Larry Klayman the benefit of the doubt, he probably thinks Mormons are Christians because they have a habit of saying they are. It doesn't help that Christian luminaries such as Richard Land of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, Bishop Harry Jackson who presides over one of the largest African American churches on the East coast and Jim Garlow (referred to above) stood with him at his 2010 rally in Washington D.C. and as I mentioned earlier, other noted evangelicals stood with him in Israel. These men don't seem to have a problem with the fact that even though Glenn says he's a Christian he remains a member of the LDS Church. As a matter of fact, the tour company he recommended to those attending his big shindig is owned by Mormons. Jack Kinsella went to the Israel event and claims this is something he concealed. In a piece he wrote Stolen Blessings: The LDS Connection he says LDS Travel is "identical in every respect to Voyager Travel, except that LDS Travel makes it clear that it is a Latter Days Saints Church operation." Jack was irked that sincere Christians that took Glenn's advice to use Voyager Travel inadvertently contributed to the advancement of Mormonism.

After all the brouhaha over whether or not Glenn Beck is a Christian I do hope our Christian leaders, some of whom are clergy, others attorneys, will not just take his word for it. I hope they'll dig deep into LDS doctrine to find out what Mormons believe. The Bible warns:

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try [test] the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (1John 4:1)

Believers must test to see if LDS teaching is true or false. For example, do the Latter-day Saints really teach that God has a body of flesh and bones as Matt Slick claimed? Let's visit the LDS Gospel Library Gospel Topics to see if it's true or false:

God the Father is the Supreme Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is the ultimate Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things. He is perfect, has all power, and knows all things. He "has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's" (D&C 130:22). (Bold added.)

Yep, Matt was right.

No doubt some Beck fans will be annoyed that I'm "attacking" their hero. I hope you're annoyed enough to research Mormonism (links below) and to go and look at Scripture to see if what I'm saying here is true.

I must digress for a moment to explain why I'm writing a piece on Glenn Beck. Some of the subjects I cover in my column are politics, the culture war, and religion which include the cults, the occult, and a potpourri of aberrant movements within Christianity. My aim is to unearth unbiblical teaching and bring it to light. The reason I do it is because there's a stunning lack of discernment in Christendom that I find deeply troubling.

For many years I was one of those Christians who blazed my own trail. My belief system was decidedly New Age but I called myself a Christian nonetheless. My worldview was anything but Christian, I was a New Age/gnostic/mystic/mess. I professed Christ, yet I rarely read the Bible and when I did I'd find fault in most of what I read. When my Christian mother challenged me on my goofy beliefs I'd snap back, "You believe what you want I'll believe what I want!" And I believed what I wanted for decades! I won't go into all that was wrong with my beliefs now. I'll just say that I was a very eclectic "Christian." And that's mainly because I was influenced by my friends, most of whom were not Christians, and also by the postmodern culture I grew up in. My mother's death and a nasty divorce were the two events that caused me to reassess my life.

That's a whole other subject, so I'll move on.

Providentially God put me in a job where I met and became friends with true believers. My new friends challenged my esoteric beliefs and urged me to read the works of conservative Christian theologians, philosophers and apologists. They also urged me to find a church, read the Bible and get involved in a Bible study. I took their advice.

Realizing its serious business to be a follower of Jesus Christ, I spent most of my free time trying to sort out what I believed and why I believed it. One of the first books I read was Ray C. Stedman's Authentic Christianity. What an eye-opener that was! Then I moved on to John White's The Cost of Commitment and other books by White. But the book that shook me to my core was R.C. Sproul's The Holiness of God. I highly recommend it.

I also read books on the New Age movement (NAM) written by Christian authors who warned of its dangers. I devoured Kingdom of the Cults by Dr. Walter Martin. There's no doubt reading his books and listening to his audio tapes gave me insight into the cults and the occult.

So, why am I sharing my personal journey? I want readers to know where I'm coming from and why I'm committed to exposing false teachers. When I bring to light false teaching/ teachers/ preachers/church leaders, what Jesus called "ravenous wolves," I do it for one simple reason: Wolves influenced my thinking for many years and the unbiblical beliefs I held prevented me from maturing in my faith.

One of my HUGE regrets is that I influenced those around me with all the New Age/gnostic/pagan/psychobabble I was into. I mean, why not? The beliefs I latched onto seemed right for everyone! (Sounds like Oprah, doesn't it?) In < a href="http://www.emailbrigade.com/331.html">The Purpose Driven dismantling of Christianity, part 1 I call this sort of Christianity "syncretism stew," which is Christianity plus... paganism...mysticism... new revelation...signs & wonders...Jungian psychology...man-centered self-esteem... Twelve-steps...universalism (all roads lead to God)... and, thanks to Rick Warren, global peace. This concoction may sound nourishing, but it causes spiritual malnutrition!

Those who believe God enlightens some and not others and that they have some sort of secret knowledge have been drawn into the heresy that the early church faced and defeated, namely gnosticism. Once again the Gnostic Gospel has reared its ugly head.

Christianity never has been nor is it now meant to be some sort of esoteric experience. And besides, going down that road leads to spiritual pride. Authentic Christianity entails a daily walk with the Lord Jesus Christ and obedience to his commands. (John 14:15) It is that simple. The only way we can truly know God is through what He has revealed to us in the Bible. If the Bible is not true, if it is just a book of myths and fables as some say it is, if it's not the way God reveals who He is and His ways to us anyone can claim to have the indisputable truth about God.

Stay tuned for Part 2 ... You'll discover Glenn Beck's "pure persona truth."

Recommended Reading:

Beliefs and practices of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — Wikipedia

The "God" of Glenn Beck — By Ken Silva

How to be right with God — "What must I do to be saved?" — By David Wheaton

Audio:

Evangelicals and Glenn Beck's New Age Mormonism — VCY America radio broadcast hosted by Brannon Howse, 2/28/11

Video:

Glenn Beck's (ecumenical) "Restoring Courage" speech from Israel

Mormon Beliefs:

Quote from LDS.org: And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God [LDS], and the other is the church of the devil [Christendom]; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. 1 Nephi, 14:10 Book of Mormon

Quote from LDS.org: LDS Church President Lorenzo Snow expressed the nature of the Father in his couplet, "As man is, God once was — and as God is, man may become."

Salvation:

[A]s the Agent of the Father and Judge of all, Christ is able to be both merciful and just (John 5:22; Romans 2:16). To obtain His mercy, or be saved from His wrath, or indigation [sic], on the day of judgment, men and women must (1) have faith in Christ, (2) repent of their sins, (3) be baptized by one of His authorized agents in water in the likeness of His burial, to come forth born again of the Spirit, (4) receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, again by an authorized servant of God bearing His priesthood, and (5) endure in faith in Christ and repentance from sins to the end of their mortal lives. (Online Source)

After Death:

The nature of that body...will depend on the result of the Last Judgment, at which Jesus will assign each soul to one of three degrees of glory (heavenly kingdoms): the celestial kingdom in the presence of the Father and the Son for those who accept Jesus Christ and receive all LDS saving ordinances, either as a mortal or by proxy; the terrestrial kingdom, a place of glory in the presence of Christ for righteous persons who refuse to receive the saving ordinances and for those who do not keep the covenants they commit to; and the telestial kingdom for the wicked. A further destination, called outer darkness, is reserved for Satan, his devils, and those mortals who commit the unpardonable sin and thereby become the sons of perdition.[61] Those who are ultimately destined for the telestial kingdom will be those who suffer for their sins in hell; however, these persons remain in hell only the 1000 years during the millennial reign of Christ, after which they will exit hell and be resurrected with an immortal body into a state of peace. (Online Source)

© Marsha West


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Other Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: beck; christianity; glennbeck; harryreid; huntsman; inman; jonhuntsman; josephsmith; lds; marshawest; mittromney; mormon; mormonism; mormons; polygamy; reid; restoringcourage; romney; smith; west
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To: runninglips
Not in my case. I am not attaching mormons I am however exposing mormonISM. Romney is a stink'n liberal that's why he should be opposed. If Beck's message is about mormonISM and it increasingly appears to be the case that mormonISM message is what needs to be exposed.
281 posted on 09/06/2011 4:39:31 PM PDT by svcw (iphone 5 release date late October - rats)
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To: dila813

***Christian = means belief in Christ — It is absolutely clear that Glen Beck believes in Christ***

Well, unfortunately that statement is wrong. Beck believes in A Christ, but not the one from the Bible.


282 posted on 09/06/2011 5:11:11 PM PDT by irishtenor (Everything in moderation, however, too much whiskey is just enough... Mark Twain)
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To: dila813
By condemning the man you are judging him...

So; where is he CONDEMNed??

SURELY you have a reply # in mind; right?

283 posted on 09/06/2011 5:16:38 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: dila813
...I would have no problem condemning every action offensive to God the man undertakes but won’t judge him.

Do you JUDGE Muslims?

284 posted on 09/06/2011 5:17:21 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: LibertyPatriot2001; Invincibly Ignorant
Really, you have to be a bigot to discuss religious issues.

And now we got BIGOTs; too.

285 posted on 09/06/2011 5:20:43 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: dila813
I am being fair, I don’t think am judging others on this thread are NOT to be.
286 posted on 09/06/2011 5:22:21 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Turtlepower
Living a certain way by one’s one power has nothing to do with Christianity.

But a **** HECK of a lot to do with MORMONism!

287 posted on 09/06/2011 5:23:31 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: dila813
Jesus’s most common tactic was telling parables that teach a lesson.

Going an attacking someone isn’t preaching God’s message, it is simple rejecting them.


 


 
Matthew 15:16
   "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

Matthew 23
 
  1.  Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
  2.  "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
  3.  So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
  4.  They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
  5.  "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries  wide and the tassels on their garments long;
  6.  they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
  7.  they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
  8.  "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
  9.  And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
 10.  Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
 11.  The greatest among you will be your servant.
 12.  For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
 13.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 
 14.  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 
 15.   "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. 
 16.  "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
 17.  You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
 18.  You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
 19.  You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
 20.  Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
 21.  And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
 22.  And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
 23.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
 24.  You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
 25.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
 26.  Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
 27.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!  You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
 28.  In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
 29.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
 30.  And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
 31.  So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
 32.  Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
 33.  "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
 34.  Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
 35.  And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
 36.  I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
 37.  "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
 38.  Look, your house is left to you desolate.
 39.  For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "
 


Mark 7:26-27
 26.  The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
 27.  "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
 

And St. Paul chimes in...

Galatians 5:12
   As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
 


288 posted on 09/06/2011 5:24:47 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: dila813
Sometimes people don’t even realize what they are doing or saying.

Yes; you've illustrated this quite well.

289 posted on 09/06/2011 5:26:18 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: dila813
... we have people coming into the Church saying they are Christians and we look at them and look at each other knowing that they aren’t Christians.

MORMONs do this ALL the time!

290 posted on 09/06/2011 5:27:10 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: dila813
One is focused on a person, the other on the behavior, that is the key difference. One is judgment of a person, the other is judgment of a behavior.

The thieves in jail, for stealing other peoples stuff, will be SO glad to hear this!

They'll realize that their BEHAVIOR is in jail: not them, personally.

291 posted on 09/06/2011 5:29:16 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: dila813
It immediately went into attacking Glen Beck by saying he isn’t a Christian.

OH?


Here Glenn Beck goes again, claiming he's a Christian, this time at Restoring Courage 2011 — Jerusalem.

Glenn gets upset when anyone questions his Christianity.

That's weird because he's a Mormon who affirms the official teaching of Mormonism aka the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS).

The LDS outright deny many of the essential doctrines of the Christian faith.

Moreover, LDS doctrine contradicts what Scripture teaches.

So of course there are Christians who feel Beck's not a true follower of Jesus Christ — not the Jesus of the Bible anyway.

When his "I'm a Christian" claim is held up to scrutiny Glenn gets his knickers in a knot.

At the rally he choked up with emotion and said in an accusatory tone that only Christians question his salvation.

--Marsha West


292 posted on 09/06/2011 5:33:52 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: dila813
Read the entire Matthew 23, he is talking about behavior and he is saying that these guys were engaged in this behavior...

YOU post the verse(s) that talk about BEHAVIOR as being their 'problem'.

293 posted on 09/06/2011 5:36:47 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Vaquero
...or I could talk to the wall.

Sometimes folks have to READ what's on the wall!

294 posted on 09/06/2011 5:38:31 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Turtlepower

1/3 Beast!


295 posted on 09/06/2011 5:38:57 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: dila813; Invincibly Ignorant

Now we gots a Vemon Spitter!


296 posted on 09/06/2011 5:40:41 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Turtlepower
...seems pretty hypocritical of you.

No, no, NO!

You gots to be IMpersonal!

Try typing:

PEOPLE who exhibit the BEHAVIOR that YOU have, would be called HYPOCRITs.

297 posted on 09/06/2011 5:43:04 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: runninglips
Attacking the Mormons is an attempt to destroy the coalition that is needed to take the Left down.

Then by all means we must save the Country; even if it means that some other folks will go to Hell.

Yeah; THAT's the ticket!

298 posted on 09/06/2011 5:45:00 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

“Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.” matt 23-3, many examples like this

http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/matthew23.htm


299 posted on 09/06/2011 5:45:36 PM PDT by dila813
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To: svcw
What does that mean?

Leave BRITTANY alone!

300 posted on 09/06/2011 5:46:20 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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