Posted on 08/24/2011 3:39:04 AM PDT by Cronos
Simple marble gravestones lie flat in the grounds of St Andrew's Church in Bandra, one of the oldest Roman Catholic places of worship in the Indian city of Mumbai.
The names on the tombs bear witness to the city's Portuguese heritage, as a groundsman sweeps wet leaves from generations of Da Silvas, D'Souzas, Pintos, Pereiras, Furtados and Fonsecas.
Behind the white-washed church, are newer, much smaller memorials, stacked on top of one another like drawers in a high perimeter wall bordering the sea.
Inside these "niches" are the mortal remains of the more recently deceased, whose bones have been disinterred and replaced by those who have died in the last year or two.
The spiralling cost of land and its lack of availability is a major issue for the estimated 18 million people crammed into India's financial and entertainment capital.
(Excerpt) Read more at google.com ...
And this is how India got the other Portugese territories:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqj9h563X-Y&feature=related
And now the Indians come out with ridiculous propaganda to excuse their actions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RObk8XNMkM&feature=related
Cremation has only recently become popular in the West with Catholics. In India it still carries a stigma of “not having the body on the day of Resurrection”
“Portugese territories”??....as in... they always “belonged” to Portugal?
If they were not Portugese, then America doesn’t belong to America. The Portugese owned the territories since the 1500s. We don’t have a claim nearly that old.
Sorry Vlad, Goa is India not Portugal. Just as rest of India belongs to Indians not Britain. The era of European colonization is long over. Get over it.
You wrote:
“Does Portugal have a claim to Goa over and above the wishes of the native population? America has majority “American” people.”
Okay, let’s work with that. Because the Portugese did not kill as many natives as Americans did, and not as many natives died from disease in India as in America, and not as many Portugese invaded India as Europeans invaded or immigrated to America, that means Portugal had no rights to what it held for 3 or 400 years? So, does that mean black neighborhoods can secede from America? How about the hispanics of the Southwest?
“Goa has majority what people? Portuguese? Portugal owned it since 1500....Indians owned it since.....ummm.....FOREVER?”
They were all Portugese according to the Portugese government.
“Sorry Vlad, Goa is India not Portugal.”
And La Raza says the Southwest is not American, but Mexican, or chicano.
“Just as rest of India belongs to Indians not Britain.”
Which Indians? The Muslims? Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Tamils? Goans? Bengalis?
“The era of European colonization is long over. Get over it.”
I am over it. Apparently you’re the one having problems. Also, I sure hope you’re this understanding if we lose the Southwest TO ITS NATIVES.
Not too sure about that one. Unfortunately for the Portuguese there were too many dot Indians in the worlds then there were feather Indians to make American style population resettlement a realistic option for them. Not that it never cross their minds I am sure.
“Portugal had no rights to what it held for 3 or 400 years?”
I am sorry Vlad, occupation is still occupation. Doesn't matter how long they hold something that does not belong to them... its still occupation. India was held by Muslims for longer then that, so Indian should belong to the Muslims? You lose that one, sorry.
Next...
“They were all Portugese according to the Portugese government.”
Who cares what Portuguese government has to say. Goans have their own opinion on who they are. They are not European racially, culturally, even linguistically ...they don't speak Portuguese (the majority speak Konkani and Marathi), and religiously 65% of population is Hindu. So what exactly makes them Portuguese? Nothing. Besides.... Indians government now calls them "Indians". So that's that.
“And La Raza says the Southwest is not American, but Mexican, or chicano.”
Come one Vlad, try harder. That's not even an argument.
“Which Indians? The Muslims? Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Tamils? Goans? Bengalis?”
Yup. All of them.
“Apparently you’re the one having problems.”
Nope. What problem? Goa is nicely back in India where she should be. I have no problem. You seem to be the one with a chip on your shoulder about it.
“you’re this understanding if we lose the Southwest TO ITS NATIVES.”
We wont. And that is not even a valid analogy anyways.
In Goa 400 years of Portuguese inquisition, atrocities and slavery was overturned within matter of hours with total support from the people and with little or no violence. If the Portuguese really thought if Goa as their “territory” then they should have put up a fight for it. Not cut and run like frightened kitties.
Portuguese rule over Goa is history now. And the victors get to right the history. That’s the rule.
Besides India is bailing out a financially failing Portugal. Portugal has a lot to be thankful to India for then the other way.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2757832/posts
You wrote:
“I am sorry Vlad, occupation is still occupation.”
Say goodbye to the Southwest.
“Who cares what Portuguese government has to say.”
Obviously India did.
” Goans have their own opinion on who they are. They are not European racially, culturally, even linguistically ...they don’t speak Portuguese (the majority speak Konkani and Marathi), and religiously 65% of population is Hindu. So what exactly makes them Portuguese?”
The same thing that American Indians who were not European, didn’t speak English and weren’t Christian, American. Conquest and a free grant of citizenship - and, oh yeah, centuries of paternalism.
“Nothing. Besides.... Indians government now calls them “Indians”. So that’s that.”
Again, say goodbye to the Southwest.
“Come one Vlad, try harder. That’s not even an argument.”
So that’s why you’re unable to refute it?
“Yup. All of them.”
Which. What about the Goans who didn’t want to be Indian?
“Nope. What problem? Goa is nicely back in India where she should be. I have no problem. You seem to be the one with a chip on your shoulder about it.”
No, just more knowledge and I see the coming problem with your attitude - the Southwest.
“We wont. And that is not even a valid analogy anyways.”
It sure is a valid analogy. It wasn’t you would be able to easily refute it. You can’t.
You wrote:
“In Goa 400 years of Portuguese inquisition,”
First of all, the inquisition was in Goa no more than 300 years and probably less than that.
” atrocities and slavery was overturned within matter of hours with total support from the people and with little or no violence.”
You’re nuts. Are you honestly saying there was an inquisition, atrocities and slavery in Goa in 1961?
“If the Portuguese really thought if Goa as their “territory” then they should have put up a fight for it. Not cut and run like frightened kitties.”
So, the tiny nation of Portugal, located on the Iberian peninsula was going to lauch an attack at 20 different locations against a nation of 600 or so million people on the other side of the world? Are you on crack?
“Portuguese rule over Goa is history now. And the victors get to right the history. That’s the rule.”
Goodbye Southwest. It was nice owning you for a century and a half, but you’ll soon be in the hands of Mexico again - and some Freepers are preparing the way. Gee, I wonder how hypocritical your opinions about Israel must be. If and when Arabs overwhelm Israel will your opinion be so “Oh, well, that’s how it goes.”
“Besides India is bailing out a financially failing Portugal. Portugal has a lot to be thankful to India for then the other way.”
All India would be doing is returning the wealth taken in former Portuguese possessions.
That's clearly not an argument. And southwest isn't going (hasn't gone) anywhere.
“Obviously India did.”
Apparently not. Or India would have stayed out of Goa. India wouldn't have just walked in.
“The same thing that American Indians who were not European, didn’t speak English and weren’t Christian, American. Conquest and a free grant of citizenship - and, oh yeah, centuries of paternalism.”
How many present day Americans compared to Native Americans? Besides native Americans have same right as any other American in today’s America. What rights did Indians have under Portuguese rule? Were they allowed to form or be part of the government? There is huge difference between a citizen with full right (what native Americans have) and a colonial subject (which the Indians were under the Portuguese).
“Again, say goodbye to the Southwest.”
Again...not an argument.
“So that’s why you’re unable to refute it?”
Because those aren't arguments. They are not worth a rebuttal. Southwest what? You think Mexican government can just stake claim, walk in a take over? That's not argument, that's called delusion. You don't refute delusion.
“What about the Goans who didn’t want to be Indian?”
Who told you that?
“No, just more knowledge and I see the coming problem with your attitude - the Southwest.”
I don't quite see the knowledge part but whatever. It is still your problem Vlad :) That is what I am trying say. I have no problem with my attitude.
“It sure is a valid analogy. It wasn’t you would be able to easily refute it. You can’t.”
You need to figure the different between delusion and analogy.
I see you never answered my question. I am assuming you didn't have one. You tried to skirt the question with some weak analogy of Southwest and straw-man argument. Enough of stupid analogies. Its is a very straight forward and pertinent question. Just answer the question. What claim does Portuguese have over the people of Goa? Is there a racial, cultural, linguistic or religious relation between Goa and Portugal? If you cannot answer it then you have not claim whatsoever.
Thats doesnt make it any better.
“Are you honestly saying there was an inquisition, atrocities and slavery in Goa in 1961?”
When Indians came to Goa, they found it in a worse shape then rest of British India. Bombay used to be a Portuguese colony until the British took over and turned it into a rich financial capital, while Indian lands under Portuguese rule were far worse off then under then British. The British at least gave bridges, roads and railways to India, whereas Goa turned into a dust bowl of impoverished masses with namesake Christianity. And yes atrocities, rape, forced conversion and slavery were very real in Goa. Read the history.
“So, the tiny nation of Portugal, located on the Iberian peninsula was going to lauch an attack at 20 different locations against a nation of 600 or so million people on the other side of the world? Are you on crack?”
They could come all the way to colonize it but couldn't put up a fight to keep it? The Brits put up a fight for Falkland against Argies far away from their homeland. The Portuguese had 12,000 soldiers in Goa and they couldn't put at least a worthy gunfight against the Indians? It took only 36 hours to liberate Goa, that tells you how much popular support the Portuguese had in Goa. In fact prior to that the Portuguese had brought in additional White and African mercenaries to crush the local resistances like Azad Gomantak Dal and Goa Liberation Army. The Portuguese navy even fired on Indian civilian vessels killing innocent passengers. And here is the image of people cheering arrival of Indian troops
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Liberation_cheer.jpg
” I wonder how hypocritical your opinions about Israel must be.”
Actually I wonder that about you. In fact Portuguese occupation of Goa is quite similar to Arab occupation of Judaeic lands. And in fact Arabs actually have a better claim over Israel then Portuguese have over Goa. The Arabs held Jerusalem far longer Portuguese held Goa. By your logic Israel should go back to the Arabs, no? Just holding on to something make it yours right?
“All India would be doing is returning the wealth taken in former Portuguese possessions.”
.....which in turn were wealth taken away from Indian colonial subjects. Personally I would say let the spoiled Euros fail. They have looted enough of other people wealth for countries like India to feed more into their gluttonous appetite.
Goodbye Southwest.
You wrote:
“Who told you that?”
Some Goans.
You wrote:
“I see you never answered my question.”
You never answered mine so what does it matter?
You wrote:
“Just holding on to something make it yours right?”
Bye, bye America. Bye, bye Southwest.
Highly doubt that. I have actually lived in Goa. Your word of mouth against my actual experience. No contest.
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