Posted on 07/27/2011 6:39:32 AM PDT by marshmallow
Yeah-I don’t know much about the Adventists. Guess there is a skeleton in the closet, after all in the proddie warehouse.
Nobody in the first century conducted church business by way of the internet. It’s not in the Bible.
Nobody in the first century went to Mass by driving a car. It is not in the Bible.
Nobody in the first century built a church using vehicular based construction tools. It’s not in the Bible.
Miss me? :-D
in a debate on islamic theology, would they appeal to St Augustine? i prefer to use those who have receieved the gift of the Holy Spirit, it is the Spirit that leads the Church into all truth, not men.
well, since protestants first appeared on the world stage in the 16th century, i’m glad to learn none of them believe they are the only congregation in which a soul might be saved. a true Catholic holds to the Catholic Faith received from the Apostles and believed by the Church for 2,000 years. Since protestants deny the real presence in the Eucharist and baptismal regeneration, in what sense can their faith be called “catholic”, since these doctrines were unheard of before the 16th century?
well, quite frankly, this is hardly your skeleton or warehouse. The Adventists, Mennonites etc. believe what they want to — it is their choice and the presbyterians are hardly in any way linked or responsible for their theology. Neither are we for that matter. Each is a separate set of beliefs and doctrines and stands separately.
Also, I do not like the disparaging term “prod...” — I prefer to address you as a Presbyterian, another freeper as a Pentecostal etc. — a Christian group is a Christian group.
Hush — on a serious note, how is it going finding a traditional Anglican parish while travelling? And how is your church doing? hold strong to the faith, we are all praying for you all
lol ... sorry to bother you then. You can go back to sleep now.
Regards.
Oh grow up already. Everyone knows already that you don’t like Catholic church. You don’t need to wear it on your sleeve.with every post.
Oh grow up already. Everyone knows already that you don’t like Catholic church. You don’t need to wear it on your sleeve.with every post.
The RCC has never been able to produce any credible evidence for this myth. Therefore, place that in the category of "sacred tradition" ... no evidence required then.
You apparently make a point of ignoring the Apostolic Fathers, not to mention Eusebius. I was going to point out that Peter was bishop of Antioch (per Ignatius, the second successor after him) and that he likely did not arrive in Rome until at least the middle 50's if not later. By then the church in Jerusalem was firmly planted (with James the Just as its head: this is not James the Apostle, by the way).The church in Rome, famed for centuries as the lodestone for correct understanding, was therefore not the first church planted (being first doesn't mean anything anyway).
I should also point out for those thinking 'catholic' meant 'universal' in any time period within centuries of the first one after Christ that this became the translation only when Vincent of Lerins and Augustine of Hippo used it that way in the late fourth century. Originally, the word meant 'complete' as in 'we are the catholic (hath olou) church because we have an apostolic bishop at our head, celebrate a true Eucharist and give the great Amen as one congregation, after which we communicate the most sacred Body and Blood of our Savior, exactly as He told us to do. We therefore have access to the saving grace of the kath olou (complete) Christ and the greatest likelihood of reaching salvation.
When one realizes this distinction, one easily understands what Paul means when he says 'the church in the house of [fill in the blank]' or the 'church which meets in one place at {fill in the blank]'. There is a universal (oeconomicos) catholic (kath olou) church when every church headed by a bishop holds the same understanding of the Savior they worship. So many local catholic churches add up to one universal catholic church.
Sorry if this wastes protestant reading time.
Whatever claims they might make also postdate Christian ones. The only group having more ancient claim would be the pagans (false term), like those who worshipped Diana of the Ephesians and her cognates around the area. Seen any of them lately?
Your post might make sense to post #2. It is a non sequitur to my comment at post #54.
However, the Church, as Rome itself acknowledges, is bigger than Roman Catholicism...which is why you, with Rome, would call me a Christian, or an Eastern Orthodox believer a Christian, or Baptists, or a Pentecostals or even a "non-denominational" believers, Christian. None are a part of the organization based in Rome, yet, when Rome acknowledges there are ANY Christians apart from her organization(and not all in her organization are true Christians either....just as in any other Christian body)--she acknowledges there is a Church universal, beyond Rome's reach--the members of whom are known by Christ our Head Himself.
I'm very familiar with the Patristic era (before AD 500) when the New Testament was first recognized and put together. All of the New Testament writings are 1st Century and of Apostolic origin...not invented or created by the Church, therefore, if one takes a historical/scholarly approach to what the Apostles actually believed and taught, you cannot look at it through the lens of many centuries of traditions, papal decisions and doctrinal appendages, any more than if you wanted to know what the Founding Fathers intended for our government, would you look at U. S. Supreme Court decisions, much less acts of Congress or Obama...instead of the Constitution itself.
I think there is an excellent parallel there--as Protestant Christianity is the original "strict constructionist" approach to Christianity--"back to the sources!" was the rallying cry of the Renaissance in which it was born... and the Bible, God's Word revealed to us, just as it was for those saints in the first 400 or 500 years, is the supreme authority, over and above the Church, who must be obedient to the Lord and his Word. Does this deny the authority of the Church universal? NO. It does however put her authority UNDER God's authority--thereby actually establishing her authority.
(Isn't it interesting that BEFORE Rome & Constantinople et al. became super powerful, politically and in every other way--the Church did actually stay together as one? When the Church leaders reached beyond the authority of holy Scripture, with innovations and traditions-made-dogma, then, and only then, did our fellowship break, beginning with the Great Schism, NOT Luther)
Yes, the Church Catholic in total (and like I said, that includes ALL Christians)....does have the authority to "interpret, explain and impose" (religiously, not with force of arms through the state...) the holy scripture, and I'm very proud of OUR Christian heritage--of those who gave their lives protecting, compiling, translating, editing, copying, preserving and saving the bible, especially in those early centuries.
However, if you took a time machine and transported say, Irenaus of Lyons, or Clement of Alexandria, Origen, or even the great Augustine of Hippo into the present day, they would not recognize the Church based in Rome today as that same Church Catholic they knew... MANY beliefs have been appended since those times...and NO Roman prelate in their day had anywhere near the power or supposed authority medieval Roman Catholicism granted the Bishop of Rome--which he continues to claim today.
The faith and practices of Rome appear very different to me and others who have read and studied the New Testament, from the faith and practices taught there...which is why, it is a fact that until recent generations, Rome discouraged bible reading...and even, a few hundred years ago, severely persecuted those who dared translate the bible (Look up William Tyndale, for example) into the common tongue.
Even now, the least biblically literate Christians I've ever met were Roman Catholic...as it makes sense, if the Church and the Curia have equal authority to the bible....then why bother to read and think, just ask your priest, right?
I don’t have time right now to refute your statements but I will keep your message for further reference. One thing you said, however , that until recent generations the church discouraged bible reading.....first of all, until the invention of the printing press...virtually noone read the bible. Bibles were prohibitively expensive because they were hand copied by CATHOLIC monks, hence only royalty and a few libraries could afford them. You also mentioned bible interpretation...you can read and enjoy the bible all you want, but make no mistake about it, the church remains the authority concerning its interpretation. Can you imagine a couple of billion different images of what the bible really meant???not a good idea at all. Listen to what the church teaches and then adapt your interpretation to their teachings. I think that’s what Jesus had in mind when He gave the church the keys to the kingdom of heaven
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