Posted on 07/05/2011 3:59:07 AM PDT by Cronos
As an out Presbyterian preacher, I'd experienced prejudice before. But nothing like what I faced in North Carolina
I was reading "Home in Henderson" -- the unofficial city website for a small town in North Carolina where I had recently moved to preach -- when I came across the blog entry. It was posted under the pseudonym "Church Reporter."
"A friend that attends the First Presbyterian Church told me to do a Google search on their new minister Brett Webb-Mitchell," the entry began. "Having done so, I have only three comments to make on the pastor selection: 1. Who is responsible for this mess? 2. The old biblical saying (the Lord works in mysterious ways) must be true in this case. 3. Someone needs to appoint a new membership search committee, because I hear the church membership numbers are dropping."
I sat at my computer, stunned.
As a gay minister, I'd heard nasty slights about me secondhand before, but I had never encountered it so directly. How could someone who didn't even know me criticize me? How could someone who called himself or herself a Christian spew such vile rhetoric? I was sad and angry and incredulous at once. This was a cheap, hateful shot.
(Excerpt) Read more at salon.com ...
Except for the fact that they are holding the line, and many protestant churches are not.
BTW, how’d that stance on contraception work out for ya?
“Perhaps not ... but all it will take is one appearance of Mary declaring otherwise, one divine revelation to a pope, or one translation of a long lost apostolic father to change that.”
I’ll take that wager.
Hey preacher newbie, RTFM.
The problem seems to be with the Mainline Protestant churches. They are the ones that are caving (Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopalian, some Baptists). They are also the ones losing numbers. Many in the Catholic church support homosexuality even if the church officially does not. FWIW, these denoms were also the first ones to ‘cave’ in the area of authority of the Bible.
The Evangelical churches, and Pentecostal groups (with rare exceptions) are growing and growing fast. Many ppl are moving from the Mainline protestant groups to Evangelical churches and their numbers are growing because they do not compromise on moral and biblical issues.
So, just as you cannot lump all Catholic priests into being pedophiles, you cannot lump all protestant churches into compromising the bible and abandoning Biblical teachings.
And, Ben, I know more Catholics (practicing) who support birth control and abortion than I do Evangelicals...just sayin’.
“FWIW, these denoms were also the first ones to ‘cave’ in the area of authority of the Bible.”
Yes, but it all got started with contraception. Most of these evangelicals wholeheartedly support contraception.
So yes, they have left biblical teachings. How can you teach, ‘be fruitful and multiply’ and accept contraception.
Actually, it did not start with contraception, it started with Higher Criticism of the Bible, which discounted the veracity of God’s word. Something the Catholic church was also heavily involved in (the Graff-Wellhausen thesis and Higher Criticism). The church my husband grew up in (and our parents attended) left the Presbyterian church over that very issue (Biblical criticism) in 1969, and the case went all the way to the Supreme Court (Community Church of Palm Springs vs. PCUSA). It wasn’t about contraception at all.
And again, I know more Catholics who support contraception than I do Evangelicals (which are a large part of Protestantism).
FWIW, I oppose contraception.
“Perhaps not ... but all it will take is one appearance of Mary declaring otherwise, one divine revelation to a pope, or one translation of a long lost apostolic father to change that.” (dartuser)
I’ll take that wager. (benkenobi)
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Interestingly, I have a similar bet going on about the acceptance of Homosexuality in Mormonism.
In 1974, a splinter group of the LDS formed called the “Homosexual Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Denver, CO)”. I expect to see a resurgence of it fairly soon.
But, to be honest, knowing the structure, hierarchy, and theological processes of both groups (Catholic and LDS), I expect the LDS to cave and not the Catholics. Then again, there is a vast difference between official Catholic teaching and the ‘lay theology’ of many Catholics something that is not present in the LDS.
Wow, I didn’t read further at the link, but if what was stated so far was considered by this guy as so very, very, very horrible, I’m wondering what planet he’s been on.
WORD.
Had the church asked him forthrightly if he were homosexual, he would have had a tizzie-fit over that and possibly sued.
The main social feature of homosexuality is perpetual victimhood. It is “fabulous racism” for those who don’t qualify as victims of racism. It can never be resolved because the whole point is to, well, revel in victimhood.
Why in the world would someone who was convinced that his lifestyle was appropriate and acceptable give a rat’s patootie what other people think about it? Why the constant begging (i.e., coercion) for societal approval and grandizement?
That’s very telling, I think.
“Something the Catholic church was also heavily involved in (the Graff-Wellhausen thesis and Higher Criticism)”
I’m a historian. Wellhausen was a protestant, and a Lutheran. So was Graf. The actual founder of the movement was Reuss, who was again a Lutheran.
I don’t see any evidence that Catholics were a significant part of the movement. My own historical philosophy comes from Reuss’s antagonist, von Ranke.
Both were Lutheran, but von Ranke was an empiricist and a man of faith. He argued in favour of Christianity as a historical religion.
As for biblical criticism, yes, it was influential in the seminaries, around the turn of the century. Unsurprisingly, this is where we see the actual ministry decline as the ministers had fewer children with their wives. This precipitated in Lambeth back in 1934.
I’m not sure when the Presbyterians jumped on board, I know for certain by 1984.
IMO, fighting for buildings is a waste of time. Fighting for truth is never a waste.
The body of Christ does not need a fancy building to be what it’s supposed to be and function as it’s supposed to function in this world.
Just as in Europe, many of America’s fancy churches will become simple tourist attractions, with tours to explain the architecture, artwork and so on.
But the body of Christ will still be alive and kicking, even if it’s “underground.”
“FWIW, I oppose contraception.”
Good for you. It will be conducive to your faith. I understand your frustration with Catholics who do not follow the teachings of their church, but you must understand that the churches that lead their flock astray are a problem too.
I wish this were not so on both sides, but the process has been underway for a long time, before we were here.
I’m a historian as well (religious history - mostly medieval), and a Bible Scholar. I didn’t say it stared with the Catholic church (I know they were Protestants) I said they were heavily involved, meaning in the support and propagation of it. I literally have thousands of books on all forms of Biblical Criticism and a vast majority that support the Documentary hypothesis come from Catholic presses and authors.
Much of the Biblical criticism (esp Higher Criticism) in the last 75 years has come from Catholic rather than Protestant scholars. In fact, I was first introduced to the theory by a Catholic professor of mine, a professor who also left me her library of Catholic books which is how I have so many on the subject.
He and Obama have something in common.
I understand your frustration with Catholics who do not follow the teachings of their church, but you must understand that the churches that lead their flock astray are a problem too.
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I never said it wasn’t. And there are Catholic priests who lead their congregations astray as well. All I was doing was pointing out there are problems on both sides, whereas you seemed to be claiming that it was a Protestant problem, while the Catholics had ‘clean hands’.
Neither side has clean hands on this. Both are guilty of promoting unbiblical things.
Also, I do not support any mainline Protestant groups, I think “Churchianity” has taken too much of a hold and as an Ex-Mormon, I am not in favor of any group that puts an organization above Christ.
I am an Evangelical who doesn’t believe in denominations but rather the Church Universal - the Body of Christ which is ALL true believers in Christ.
One last thing, don’t assume that people who don’t have children practice contraception. My husband and I have two children (both deceased - miscarriage) and have been battling infertility. I am constantly amazed at how many think I don’t want kids or believe in birth control.
Thank you-and you are right. God could not find even ten righteous. But there is also nothing in the text to suggest that everyone in Sodom, Gomorrah,and the cities round about were practicing homosexual sin. IMO the entire point of the Genesis account was that a righteous God will not tolerate evil forever-and second to that lesson God will provide an escape for the righteous.
“I said they were heavily involved, meaning in the support and propagation of it.”
And I’m contesting that assertion.
“I literally have thousands of books on all forms of Biblical Criticism and a vast majority that support the Documentary hypothesis come from Catholic presses and authors.”
Really. Let’s see some names then.
“Much of the Biblical criticism (esp Higher Criticism) in the last 75 years has come from Catholic rather than Protestant scholars.”
Again, this discussion is better taken to individual authors so we can be clear on who is discussing what. I would contest this assertion because there is a great deal of protestant literature out there of all stripes.
“In fact, I was first introduced to the theory by a Catholic professor of mine, a professor who also left me her library of Catholic books which is how I have so many on the subject.”
Ah, well as always owning someone’s library will likely have their own built in biases. Case in point. Anyone who gets mine will get a pretty clear idea of where my political ideas and beliefs and theories come from.
That’s by nature, and by design. I don’t waste shelf space on cultivating authors that come from the wide swathe of literature, because I have my own preferences.
‘All I was doing was pointing out there are problems on both sides, whereas you seemed to be claiming that it was a Protestant problem, while the Catholics had ‘clean hands’.’
No, quite the opposite. I explicitly said that people who claim to be Catholic but do not follow Catholic teachings is an issue for the Church.
Opposition to contraception as an explicitly Catholic doctrine, is an issue for the protestant church.
“Neither side has clean hands on this. Both are guilty of promoting unbiblical things.”
Who’s we? The Catholic Church, or this professor that you knew that claimed to be Catholic?
“think “Churchianity” has taken too much of a hold and as an Ex-Mormon, I am not in favor of any group that puts an organization above Christ.”
Except that biblically, Christ established his Church and his organization. Organization isn’t evil, but the bold truth is that he build His church, and there’s just one. Paul even teaches this in Ephesians, just as you have one husband, so the Church has one head, that of Christ. There are not two heads, just as there are not two husbands.
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