Accuser selling Fr. John Corapi’s Rosary Blessed by John Paul II? (Catholic Caucus)

Remember that "in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions

Can't say that I do - before my time.

The false doctrine and scandalous conduct of the "pardoners" were an immediate occasion of the Protestant Reformation.[4] In 1517, Pope Leo X offered indulgences for those who gave alms to rebuild St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. The aggressive marketing practices of Johann Tetzel in promoting this cause provoked Martin Luther to write his Ninety-Five Theses, condemning what he saw as the purchase and sale of salvation. In Thesis 28 Luther objected to a saying attributed to Tetzel: "As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs".[40] The Ninety-Five Theses not only denounced such transactions as worldly but denied the Pope's right to grant pardons on God's behalf in the first place: the only thing indulgences guaranteed, Luther said, was an increase in profit and greed, because the pardon of the Church was in God's power alone.[41]
This oft-quoted saying was by no means representative of the official Catholic teaching on indulgences, but rather, more a reflection of Tetzel’s capacity to exaggerate

While possibly offically condemned, it would appear that the practice was widespread into the 16th century.

You don't get humor do you?

How was it found out that this seller was the accuser?

I clicked on the Facebook link and it sent me to the SOLT page but there was no mention of this there? Where did you get the info?

Nice reference!! E-high fivin’ ya

If they are not registered as a non-profit with Ebay they can not say it is a donation.Thus it was pulled.

Thought it might be prudent to capture a screenshot while the page is available.

Never figured you for a Parrothead ...

Learn something new every day.

How did SHE get his Rosary in the first place?

Just because he might be leaving the priesthood, does not mean that he would give away his Rosary.

Strange.

I talked to someone last night, close to the situation. I plan on talking to Jimmy today, if I can catch him. One word, pray.

When I get home I’ll send you FR mail.

Again — technically they were never “sold”, so you couldn’t sell them even prior to 1567. Post 1567, you can’t even use any fees etc. for these. Either way, the joke was not accurate historically

You must have missed all my posts including the clause, “As the sage Jimmy Buffett says ...”.

How did SHE get his Rosary in the first place?

According to the above article ...

In the year 2000 Father Corapi gave this Rosary to a friend. As much as the owner hates to part with this Rosary, it is being offered for sale to help support a growing internet Catholic ministry in need of financial support,

an indulgence is the full or partial remission of temporal punishment due for sins which have already been forgiven granted after the sinner has confessed and received absolution

I dont understand. If I have confessed my sins, received absolution, am attempting to 'go and sin no more',(...These are signs that I believe that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb for my sins, and there is no condemnation for those who believe....)Why would I even be worried about temporal punishment? (Other than letting the judgement of other earthly beings effect my vision of my salvation.)

I am not baiting you. Its an honest question.

If you can, please fill us all in when you have any info that you can share. Not so much on the rosary for sale, but on the rest of the story. This is all very disturbing. Thank you!

Hi Delta. No, of course, you've asked a simple question in a civilised way, that is far from baiting

Firstly you are 100% correct that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb for your sins, he washes away and forgives our sins

Secondly, whatever you or I do, we can't merit forgiveness (let alone salvation)

The idea of this is similar to what we read in 2 Samuel

13And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
14Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
and 11Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

-- God forgave David his sins, yet there was still some punishment due -- pretty harsh too

Remember -- indulgences do NOT forgive sins -- only Christ does that

Cronos that is a really good example!

Not mine — I remembered a sermon I had heard from a redemptorist priest. But Delta’s question was a good one and has me intrigued and praying. I’m going to ask the wise folks — mad dawg; salvation; nyer; sayuncledave; fatheroffive; — can you help us understand this indulgences thing?

Dear friend, while I am not wise, I will try to help. The following is from fisheaters, whose explanation far surpasses mine. (http://www.fisheaters.com/indulgences.html) Sorry it’s a bit long, but quite worth it.

First we must understand what indulgences are so we don’t lapse into superstition. To do this, basic concepts must be understood, but before we get to that, let’s get a basic definition:

“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.” (1983 Catechism ¶ 1471)

And here is what indulgences are not: they are not permission to commit sins in the future; they are not “get out of Hell free” cards; they are not the forgiveness of the guilt of sin. They have nothing to do with eternal salvation; they are only for the temporal effects of sins that have already been forgiven through Penance (or a perfect Act of Contrition, as the case may be).

OK, let’s move on to the concepts involved here:

A:
Sin has two different types of effects — eternal and temporal

Sin has both eternal consequences and temporal consequences. As an example, if I were to take an innocent life, an objectively gravely sinful matter (one of the three conditions for mortal sin), under the subjective conditions of mortal sin (full knowledge, full consent of the will), and died unrepentant, I would go to Hell. My going to Hell would be the eternal consequence of my sin.

The temporal consequences of that sin range from the death of the innocent person; the suffering of my family who endured the shame and ramifications of my arrest and incarceration or enduring capital punishment; the effects of the loss of the innocent person on the family of the innocent person; the costs to the community of the loss of the innocent person; the costs to the community of litigation; the spiritual effects on the weaker members of the community whose view of the world and God’s Justice and Mercy could be affected knowing that innocent life can be taken so easily; the tarnishing of the image of the Body of Christ and the bringing of scandal upon the Church; the loss of grace in my soul and the predisposition to sin again as sin can become habitual, penance I would have to do to pay for the effects of my sin (this includes penance given to me during Confession, personal penance, and the penance assigned to me by God to be paid on earth and/or in Purgatory), etc.

If I were to repent and receive forgiveness through the Sacrament of Penance, the eternal consequences — satisfied for by Christ at Calvary — are no longer an issue (Deo gratias!) because I receive the effects of His atoning Sacrifice (I will have been justified) when I reconcile with the Church through a good Confession. But I still have to pay for the temporal consequences of my sin because God is not only merciful, He is just. An example I use in the Apologetics area of this site is that of a child who steals a candy bar and then then tearfully, with true contrition, confesses his crime to his parent. The parent, being loving and good and merciful, as our Father in Heaven is, will forgive that child and allow the child back in the parent’s “good graces” — but he will also still expect the child to pay back the store from which he stole. Another example is the common one of, say, an imprisoned murderer repenting and coming to know Christ — but who still must serve out his time in prison or give up his life as punishment.

The temporal effects of repented sins that are not paid for in life through the effects of natural law, personal penance, penance given by the priest at Confession, or mystical penances given to me by God, are paid for in Purgatory. St. Augustine, in City of God (A.D. 419), sums up Catholic thinking on such things:

Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment [i.e. when Christ comes again to judge the living and the dead]. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment.

Purgation — the process of making satisfaction for debt caused by sin so that we may become perfect, divinized, and enter Heaven — is quite Scriptural, of course. Allusions to purgation are found all over the Bible; but it is summed up most clearly in the following two verses:

Matthew 5:25-26
Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: Every man’s work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

B:
The temporal effects of sin affect others not only in natural, but in mystical ways

As far back as the Old Testament, it is made clear that the temporal effects of sin affect others who may not have committed personal sin. The greatest and first example is that of the sin of Adam and Eve which resulted in the fall of man from grace and in his propensity for corruption and personal sin which we call “original sin.”

The Pentateuch (i.e. Torah, the first five Books of the Bible) also speaks of the sins of the fathers being visited upon the children:

Exodus 20:5
...I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me.

I Corinthians 12:26 demonstrates that what affects one member of the Body affects another:

And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it: or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it.

These concepts seem foreign to those who live in the modern Western world’s radically individualistic culture, but they are Scriptural fact. They may seem “unfair” (as though life with our fallen nature is supposed to be fair), but that it is true is obvious by looking at the often sad lives of the poor children of “crack-whores,” or the parents of those who tend to end up in and out of Juvenile Hall, etc. This is not to say that those who suffer the consequences of their ancestors’ sins are doomed! No! All are called to Christ and His Church, and Jesus will judge us as individuals by looking at our hearts, wills, deeds, and intellect, taking into consideration factors which mitigate culpability. Nonetheless, the basic idea that our sins affect others not only in obvious temporal ways, but in mystical ways, is Bibilical.

All of these temporal punishments, though painful, are merciful. Without discipline and punishment from God, we would continue in our ways, remain unrepentant, and then suffer the eternal consequences of doing so. A father who does not discipline his children is a bad father who is setting up his child for greater troubles down the road. God, though, is a good Father:

Hebrews 12:5-11
And have you forgotten the consolation which speaketh to you, as unto children saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord: neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by Him. For whom the Lord loveth, He chastiseth: and He scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. But if you be without chastisement, whereof alll are made partakers, then are you bastards, not sons. Moreover, we have had fathers of our flesh for instructors, and we reverenced them. Shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits and live? And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but He, for our profit, that we might receive His sanctification. Now all chastisement for the present indeed seemeth not to bring with it joy but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield to them that are exercised by it the most peaceable fruit of justice.

C:
Grace and good works affect others in the same way

Continue reading the Exodus 20 Torah portion mentioned above:

Exodus 20:5-6
...I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And shewing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments.

The good we do, by the grace of Christ, ripples out into the universe and builds up His Body:

Colossians 1:23-24
If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven: whereof I Paul am made a minister. Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church...

When we cooperate with grace — when we pray, give alms, fast, offer up our sufferings, etc. — we literally strengthen the Body of Christ in a mystical way! Christ Himself and all the Saints of 2,000 years (by the grace of Christ) have built up His Mystical Body and laid up a “treasury of merit” or “spiritual treasury,” as it is also called. In the same way we or others detract from the Body of Christ through sin, we and others add to this treasury — and receive the fruits thereof when we receive an indulgence, for we are one in the Body of Christ:

Romans 7:5
We being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another

And read once again I Corinthians 12:26:

And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it: or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it.

D:
The Church was given the power to bind and loose

To Peter was given the Keys to the Kingdom (Matthew 16) and the power of binding and loosing (forbidding/permitting, condemning/acquitting). In exercising this power of the Keys, the Church has the authority to determine certain practices which help us to to benefit from the treasury of merit and alleviate the temporal effects of sins we’ve confessed and are already forgiven for. This is an indulgence.

That the Church was given the power to forgive the eternal effects of sin through the Sacrament of Penance makes it easier to understand how the Church also has the power to alleviate the lesser, temporal effects of sin. The Church whose priests were given the authority by Christ to forgive the guilt of sin and thereby, by the Blood of Christ, eliminate the eternal punishments for sin, surely also has the authority to pardon the temporal punishments of sin.

To refer again to the analogy of the child who steals a candy bar and repents:

The Good parent and child

Holy Mother Church and child

the parent forgives the child for stealing and allows the child back into his good graces

the Church forgives the guilt through the Sacrament of Confession, thereby eliminating the eternal consequences by the grace of Christ, and restoring the penitent from being a “dead member” of the Church to a “living member” of the Church

the child desires to pay back the store (”make satisfaction” for his debt)

the faithful desires to make satisfaction for his debt to God which he incurred through sin

the child turns to his parent for help in making satisfaction for his debt to the store. The child doesn’t have the money to pay back the store, but to the parent, the cost of the candy bar is nothing

Holy Mother Church was given the power of the Keys and, therefore, the authority to make ways for the penitent to make satisfaction for his debts to God by tapping into the treasury of merits of Christ and the Saints

the good parent says that if the child is truly contrite and truly desires to make satisfaction for the debt, he can earn enough to pay for some of the candy bar if he does X, or enough to pay for all of the candy bar if he does Y

Holy Mother Church sets out certain prayers and works to be offered under certain conditions which will either pay for some of the debt owed to God (partial indulgence) or all of the debt owed to God (plenary indulgence)

the child does X or Y

the faithful performs the prescribed actions, under the prescribed conditions, to gain an indulgence

the good parent follows through on his promise, helping the child pay for his crime by opening his wallet and giving the child some or all of the money to pay back the store.

the Church mitigates punishment incurred (temporal penalties) by opening the treasury of merit and applying those merits to the faithful.

Now, suppose there are two children. One child steals the candy bar and then dies. The other child — his brother, say — wants to help pay his dead brother’s debt, so he pays back the store in the name of his dead brother.

In this way, the Catholic can offer the benefits of the indulgence to the souls in Purgatory. Indulgences can only be applied to oneself or to a soul in Purgatory, not to another living person. When applied to the souls in Purgatory, it is done only by petition to God, for those no longer of the Church Militant (the living members of the Church on Earth) are not subject to the Church hierarchs who’ve been given the authority to grant indulgences.

E:
Indulgences are either Partial or Plenary

An indulgence can be either partial, which remits only some of the temporal punishment due to sin, or plenary, which remits all temporal punishment due to sin.

Partial Indulgences:

Partial indulgences can be acquired as often as one desires. To gain a partial indulgence, one must do the following. These are “the usual conditions” for receiving a partial indulgence:

* be in a state of grace (free of mortal sin). A good Confession isn’t otherwise necessary, but a contrite heart for even venial sin is.
* intend to receive the indulgence
* perform the prescribed action of the indulgence

There are three General Grants of partial indulgences and many Special Grants.

The General Grants:

* First General Grant:
A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful who, in the performance of their duties and in bearing the trials of life, raise their mind with humble confidence to God, adding - even if only mentally - some pious invocation.
* Second General Grant:
A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful, who in a spirit of faith and mercy give of themselves or of their goods to serve their brothers in need.
* Third General Grant:
A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful, who in a spirit of penance voluntarily deprive themselves of what is licit and pleasing to them.

Special Grants:

* indulgenced prayers, either recited alone, alternately with a companion, or by following it mentally as another recites it
* indulgenced works, such as the devout use of a properly blessed article of devotion (Crucifix, Rosary, scapulars, or medals), reading Scripture, making the Sign of the Cross, visits to the Blessed Sacrament, etc.

Plenary Indulgences:

Plenary Indulgences can be acquired only once each day for the same work (unless one is at the moment before death, in which case he may acquire another. Another exception is on All Souls Day — November 2 — when the faithful may gain a plenary indulgence, only for the souls in Purgatory, as often as they want). Plenary indulgences are much more demanding than partial indulgnces, for they require one to do the following. These are “the usual conditions” for receiving a plenary indulgence:

* have the intention of gaining the indulgence
* receive the Sacrament of Penance (within several days before or after the prescribed action of the indulgence, though the same day is best, if possible)
* receive the Eucharist (within several days before or after the prescribed action of the indulgence, though the same day is best, if possible)
* pray 6 Paters (Our Fathers), 6 Aves (Hail Marys), and 6 Glorias (Glory Bes) for the intentions of the Holy Father (within several days before or after the prescribed action of the indulgence, though the same day is best, if possible). The most recent Enchiridion prescribes at least one of each, but 6 is the traditional number.
* perform the prescribed action of the indulgence. If the prescribed action of the indulgence requires a visit to a church or oratory, one must visit devoutly and recite 1 Our Father and the Creed. This doesn’t refer to any visits to a church for Confession or the Eucharist in order to fulfill the requirements listed above; it refers to such indulgences as those granted to the faithful for visiting a church on the day of its consecration, visiting their parochial church on its titular feast day, visiting the stational churches of Rome, etc.
* be free from all attachment to venial sin

This last is most difficult, but if it can’t be fulfilled, a partial indulgence will be gained.

Some examples of ways to gain a plenary indulgence:

* Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament for at least one hour
* Making the Way of the Cross or, if unable to get to a church, the pious meditation and reading on the Passion and Death of Our Lord for a half an hour
* Private recitation of five decades of the Rosary. This must be done vocally, continuously, and while meditating on the Mysteries
* Public recitation of five decades of the Rosary. This must be done vocally, continuously, and with the Mysteries announced out loud and meditated on.
* A plenary indulgence is granted on each Friday of Lent to the faithful who after Communion piously recite before an image of Christ crucified the prayer: “Look down upon me, good and gentle Jesus.” On the other days of the year the indulgence is partial.
* A plenary indulgence is granted to the faithful who renew their baptismal promises in the liturgy of the Easter Vigil
* A plenary indulgence is granted when an Act of Consecration is publicly recited on the feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus
* A plenary indulgence is received by those who publicly make the Act of Consecration of the Human Race to the Sacred Heart on the Feast of Christ the King (last Sunday in October per the traditional calendar, last Sunday of Pentecost per the Novus Ordo calendar)
* A pious visit to a church, a public or chapel on All Souls’ Day (November 2) with the prayers of one Our Father and the Creed; this indulgence is applicable only to the Souls in Purgatory.
* A devout visit to a cemetery with a prayer, even if only mental, for the departed souls, from the first to the eighth day of November.

With any of these indulgences, one’s confessor (i.e., the priest one goes to for the Sacrament of Penance, not just any priest) may commute the work or conditions of receiving them if there is hardship.

The complete list of indulgenced prayers and works are contained in a book called the “Raccolta” or the “Enchiridion” (pronounced “en-ki-RID-ee-un” and which means “handbook” or “manual.”) There are other enchiridia for other purposes, but if one speaks of “the Enchiridion” with no qualifiers, one generally means the Raccolta.

When looking at an old Enchiridion, or when reading old prayer books, one might see a period of time attached to a partial indulgence, e.g. “indulgence of 100 days.” This number indicates an amount of time of penance one was given in the early Church after a Confession, i.e., the priest would give someone a penance of a certain amount of time before he could be fully re-admitted into the Church (penances were much harsher back then!). After 1968, the indication of days in such a manner was done away with because it was not clear to some uneducated persons that the days did not refer to “time in Purgatory” Some were under the very mistaken impression that, say, “indulgence of 100 days” meant that one would spend 100 fewer days in Purgatory instead of its true meaning: that performing the prescribed action amounts to doing a penance of 100 days.

I hope that this helps.

Δ21: The following is not even an attempt at a persuasive proof about temporal "punishment of sin" and my understanding of indulgences is abysmal. This is merely a sketch, albeit lengthy, to give a flavor and outline of Catholic thought.

Righteousness is what it is not because God just says so but because He is righteousness itself. Defects in righteousness are evil not just by, so to speak, decree, but because they are really evil.

So sin is bad not only because it breaks the divine law but because it is bad for the sinner and for those around him. Theft and indolence are not just against Divine law but they make societies less able to provide created 'goods' to their members.

Further, sin weakens the soul. There is not just the weakness of not being able to do good, not knowing what good is, etc. There is the weakness of not knowing how and of not even WANTING to do good.

If the soul had muscles, many of them would be torn, and most would ache. And the cure for that sort of thing is not only rest and balm and medicine, but sooner or later hard and even painful exercise.

So we can make an analogy about the "temporal punishment of sin," thus: God has accepted the sinner and forgiven the sin. The sinner now has a gracefully given gift of knowing more about the good and desiring more to do it, but he still hurts and parts of him are damaged. He must exercise -- and if he's like me (and he is) he won't like it.

We are assuming that God does not just make the sinner righteous. He puts him into a relationship where he will, enabled at every step by grace, become righteous through and through until he really concretely is able to desire and actually does desire to see Righteousness Himself face to face. (Right now most of us just want the pain to stop and to feel good. Few, I fear, have really undertaken to imagine what it is like to walk in that fire and not be burned.

Now, to get some sense of what the exercises might resemble in some way: You break my window. I forgive you. I'm not angry, I don't reject you, and those attitudes of mine are reliably fixed.

But still, you broke my window. IF you truly love me and you truly love justice AND IF you are able you will want to fix or replace the window -- NOT to get right with me, but because you broke it and you want at least to share with me suffering the consequences of that breaking.

AND, if I care about you, I may want FOR YOUR SAKE you to take steps at least to mitigate the damage, because a soul which loves justice and is uncomfortable with injustice is a happier and a more beautiful soul, a nobler soul, more fit to share the rule of the new Jerusalem.

The "penalties" God exacts are nothing other than his Love. He does not rejoice at the durance of the prisoner locked up until he has paid the last farthing, and He does not need the farthing which can not make Him more grand than He is already. In a way they are no more a "punishment" for sin than being obliged to run every day is a punishment for being out of shape.

Still, in some sense there is a reckoning, and two things are reckoned: the offense against God, which has been paid by the blood of Christ and the damage of the offense itself.

The Suffering of Christ is infinitely satisfactory. There is, so to speak, enough there to pay all debts of whatsoever kind. Indulgences, TOO simply understood for my taste, are the application of a fragment, a crumb, of that infinite credit balance to the debts we owe, AFTER the bulk of the payment is made to restore us to a good relationship with God by the merits of the blood of Christ.

AS I said, NOT argumentative, not even very persuasive, certainly incomplete. But I hope nevertheless able to convey something of the flavor of the thought.

No, I do not get paid by the word. Why would you ask that? ;-)